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Has anyone making these comments spent anytime either (1) living in, or, (2) studying the southern regions of Ohio and Indiana and the southwestern portion of Pennsylvania? These are clearly and obviously part of Appalachia and has incredible southern influence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.192.18 ( talk) 00:39, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
I've lived in western Pennsylvania, and I'm telling you the Appalachians are a cultural outlier in both the North and the South. Pennsylvania doesn't exactly have a monopoly on hillbillies in the North; you can find them clear up to Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont, despite the perception of New England as some bastion of blue-blooded Yankeedom. As for the South, slavery was almost non-existent in the Appalachians, and there was enough anti-slavery sentiment among the general population that the Confederate Army occupied parts of Tennessee to prevent any uprising. People up and down the Appalachians distrusted both the New England Yankees and the Southern aristocrats.
Furthermore, you have the cultural influence backwards. Southern culture has not influenced Pennsylvania, but Pennsylvanian culture has greatly influenced the Upland South, along with Virginian culture. That's where your similarities come from; Pennsylvania and Virginia are the parent cultures, and the Upland South is the offspring.
Since the article discusses the Upper South in addition to Upland South, anyone fancy knocking up an image of the United States highlighting Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Arkansas in a deep colour, and Kentucky, Missouri, West Virginia and Maryland in a lighter shade of the same colour, to illustrate the politically defined "Upper South"?. GeeJo (t)⁄ (c) • 19:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Kentucky is a Southern state damn!!!! I mean some people here are absolutely determined to put that same funky ass map of what they consider the South on every related article (the maps are based solely on Civil war alliances). I mean what else would be the cause to classify Kentucky with a Midwestern state like Missouri or Midatlantic states like Maryland and Delaware. In the Southern focus study Kentucky TIED with Virginia at 86% of it's residence identifing with the South. SO please tell me why should Kentucky not be the core Mid-South.... Forgive me if I'm a little upset but I think it's fruitless to make an article of another section of the South if you're going to use the same old Confederate maps to classify a states Southerness. If the American South page wants to base the cultural South solely on the Civil War them let them, But this is the upland/Upper/Mid South in this region Kentucky, Tennessee, and Virginia are the Definitions.
I added one of the "funky" maps showing the political state-based Upper South. I know these maps tends to generate controversy, hopefully this one won't be too bad. I opted not to use the striped lines and simply described the definition used and mentioned "definitions vary". The only serious arguments against the map I can think of are on including Missouri and not including Maryland. Missouri is the wild card state, belonging and not really belonging to a whole range of regions, but based on Civil War era regionalization, from which the term Upper South ultimately dates, Missouri is clearly part of the region. Its founding as a state is also strongly bound up with the Upland / Upper South. Maryland seems much more of a stretch, especially in modern times, and it didn't fit the simple definition given in the caption anyway. I thought about drawing a colored line around the states that did secede (ie, all except Kentucky and Missouri), but decided that would not be helpful. The text describes it all anyway. The secession definition is just one of a variety of definitions of the Upper South. Before the Civil War the Upper South simply meant the northern part of the South that was not so heavily involved with cotton production. Pfly 17:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I added the Climate zone map as that is as relevant as political and cultural factors. Feel free to tweek the wording or size, just wanted a map to show (and this one is from the article on the climate in the U.S.A. - not made by me) that the Humid Subtropical climate actually does go up into southern Ohio and the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky area. Thanks.
Seeing the "citation needed" added to the map of the Upper South, I added two references. The online reference has info about "states that did not secede during the Civil War until after the Battle of Fort Sumter", but is limited to CSA states only (Kentucky and Missouri left out). I added to reference to Meinig's book, which has tons of information about the Upland/Upper South, with both Kentucky and Missouri definitely part of it originally, and Missouri becoming increasingly identified as a Midwestern state in more recent times. The same user, anonymous 74.128.200.135, added another "citation needed" to the map, even though there are two references already in the caption. The edit summary says "source does not make specific reference to states that are apart of this region". Nothing was posted on this talk page or on my talk page. I don't understand the edit summary -- both references do specific references states, especially the book, which is full of info about the region.
Am I missing something? Perhaps anon user 74.128.200.135 could reply here with something more specific? I posted a note to User talk:74.128.200.135 about it. I'd be happy to supply a reference for whatever it is that still needs one, just tell me what it is. Region maps based on states can be controversial, as I mentioned above. If the map is unacceptably controversial, let's just remove it. Pfly 02:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
The only problems I have is the contradiction between this, page, and the Southern U.S. page. On the map of the "current" South Missouri is a "ify" Southern state and that statement is cited with two sources. Now on this Missouri is definantly considered Southern or /Upland Southern (according to the map). The source that you cited the map with, made no mention of specific states that are included in the region. And I'm not trying to be a jackass or anything and I'm sorry if I'm coming off as such. I just related Wiki pages to reflect each other. I feel that a two tone map is in order for this page those states that are definantly apart of the Upland South and those states that are sometimey. Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky, and Virginia seem to be the states that are always included in this region by different sources so they should be dark red. Missouri, Arkansas, and North Carolina are ify and vary from reference to reference. 74.128.200.135 02:34, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I can see Missouri being being more categorized as a Midwestern state than a Southern state, but where do you put Arkansas or North Carolina? I have always thought of North Carolina as an Upper South state, and I guess Arkansas is somewhere in between the Upper and Lower South. But I guess it would be wise to stripe those three states. As for Kentucky, I think it's solidly an Upper South state. ArkSoutherner 04:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I'am actually for the political definition of the Upper South. I feel that most people (who even care) generally include Kentucky, Virginia, and Tennessee as the Upper South. North Carolina and Arkansas on the other hand are states that are dangling the Deep/Upper South Line. Missouri however is again my main beef with the map. This state while it has Southern qualities is overall Midwestern, But the Political maps states otherwise. This situation is kind of similar to the old mapping scale in which they only used to the U.S. census bureau's definition of the regions and made no real effort to detail the degree of a state's regional identity, by shading the entire region one shade of red. One big problem with that on this article is that the Upper SOuth is not an "official" region of the U.S., but at the same time the Deep South isn't either, But they still have a political map detailing the "general" acceptance of the state's that constitute that sub region. 74.128.200.135 17:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I love how Kentucky (I mean, come on, KENTUCKY) is not included in the South but Maryland (I can't even begin to convey how ridiculous this is) is. Kentucky is a Southern state, and Maryland is a Northern one. Wikipedia's definitions of these regions is an embarrassment to encyclopedic study.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.174.2.205 ( talk • contribs) 01:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC).
I thought I was the only one that noticed the Upland Southern influences here in Southwestern PA, it's interesting someone else did too as far as the map goes (and do they have a source for it though?) But I have to wonder if they're confusing Southern culture and Appalachian culture because there are minute differences in the two. Second officer 04:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
This source talks about the Ohio Valley as part of the Upland South however: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/TURNER/chapter5.html, but it really defines this region before the common post Confederate definition. Second officer 04:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not to enthusiastic about the map on this page either, or rather it's defintion of the Upper South. I'm not to sure if this map is better then a political one that shows the state's generally included in the region. Now there was issue with it a while back, But maybe a two toned map like the one of the Deep South page should be used. The reason I say that is because the main problem I had with the old Political map is that Missouri was considered a state which is always included in the region, in which it is rarely especially when there is an option to put it in the Midwest. State's like Arkansas are often thought of as the Deep South and it be shaded to indicate this. I love the rest of the article however and PFly has done a wonderful and thorough job on it. Louisvillian 17:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
There are Pennsylvania influences in the Upland South, not Upland Southern influences in Pennsylvania. Most of the Upland South was settled by Pennsylvanians, Virginians and Carolinians. The Pennsylvania influence and the relative dearth of slavery legacy are the two clearest differentiators between the Upland South and the Deep South. For that matter, Pennsylvania influence along the Great Wagon Road explains the cultural differences between the Shenandoah Valley and Tidewater regions of Virginia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DBR96A ( talk • contribs) 19:34, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
First of all, I think that this article is overall well-written and useful. But the inclusion of any portion of Pennsylvania in any manner as part of the "upper South" - even shaded the same color as parts of Georgia (!!!) - is one of those major factual inaccuracies that occasionally surface on Wikipedia. I think that the terms "Appalachian" and "upper South" are being uncomfortably interchanged in this article; much of the upper South is in Appalachia, but the two terms are not mutually inclusive. If we are going to include every part of Appalachia as within the confines of the upper South, Upstate New York and points north might as well be included. Southwestern Pennsylvania is indeed an Appalachian region; but to compare the history, social norms, and culture of Pittsburgh with those of distinctly Southern cities such as Knoxville, Tennessee or Pikeville, Kentucky is simply not accurate. This can be factually verified with outside sources; besides, as a Pennsylvanian this is common sense to me. The same almost certainly applies to Ohio as well, but I'm not qualified to speak regarding that state. Parts of Ohio are Appalachian, but I've never heard a qualified person refer to Ohio as "Southern" in any context. -- 65.222.20.131 ( talk) 01:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Northern West Virginia is historically and culturally more similar to western Pennsylvania than it is to southern West Virginia. It has a much stronger industrial legacy and ethnic European heritage than southern West Virginia does, and there was virtually no support for slavery there. In fact, you have to be south of U.S. Route 50 to even possibly be in the Upland South. Along and north of there, you're in the North, period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DBR96A ( talk • contribs) 19:46, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
This has to be the most ridiculous article on Wikipedia...everybody knows that the Mason-Dixon line is the boundary. In fact, it is culturally as well. Ripley, Ohio, for example, still proudly touts its history as an Underground Railroad stop...Cincinnati as well. I saw this bogus term being referred to in the Cincinnati, Ohio article. It's actually disgusting. If anything, the areas that have cultural ties to the South have diminished rather than increased...(see Maryland, delaware, BosWash megalopolis). In fact, I bet a southerner would be offended by the idea that they have ties with areas near Pittsburgh and Harrisburg... The only justification provided for this is the fact that parts of Ohio and presumably other states are in geographic areas that are more associated with the South...even that is subjective. However, this article goes on to state that the actual South has cultural and historical ties with the southern North, which is 1. utterly subjective and 2. complete baloney. Also, note that about half the military enlistees in West Virginia and Kentucky joined the Confederate army. If anybody can get proof of this happening in Ohio in significant numbers maybe this article should make a note of it...it seems unlikely to me. In summation, there may be a difference between the Upper South and the Lower South but this so-called "Upland South" that includes southern parts of the NORTH simply doesn't exist. This article needs to be flagged. Is there any flag entitled, "Complete B.S.?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.23.139 ( talk) 09:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I fully and strongly agree with you, particularly regarding the inclusion of any part of Pennsylvania in this article even in the most mercurial sense. I'm a lifelong Pittsbugher. There is NOTHING Southern about this city and region at all. Tell a lifelong Pittsbugher that they're in the "Upland South" and they would either think you were on some illicit drug, a stupid idiot, or punch you in the face. I cannot emphasize enough that there is NOTHING at all "Southern" about this city, and yet we're included on this map along with parts of Alabama. Pittsburgh and Northern Alabama in the same cultural map!!!! My ancestors died fighting for the Union, and they would be turning over in their graves knowing that some idiotic Wikipedia editor had taken the intellectual liberty to rebrand them as slave-holding Southerners.
In fact, I'm removing the map from this article, and will continue to do so until somebody can provide a peer-reviewed source that includes Pennsylvania in the South. Just a single encyclopedia article, from ANY encyclopedia in the entire world, that calls Pennsylvania a state of the Upper South. I dare them to try and find one. -- 67.171.69.122 ( talk) 06:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Also, if only to remind myself later, there's a wealth of sources to be found from a simple google search on "Upland South", especially on Google Books, like this. Sources date from very recent to quite old, and use the term variously--some for a small geographic region, some large, some focused on things like the "Ohio Valley". Anyway, some sources that look useful include, this, this (chapter 7 esp.), this old classic by Turner, this one about architecture, this old one from the Ohio Historical Society, and this one about the Midwest (interesting section titled "Upland Southerners"), among others. Pfly ( talk) 22:47, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Pennsylvania was my principal concern. All of this talk about "influence" needs to be put clearly into context. If we're going to be that vague, you can surely find "Southern influence" in every state in this country from California to Maine, and if that's the (ridiculously and completely open to interpretation) standard Wikipedia uses why shouldn't we color the entire map green? I'm sure that some people from Dixie moved to Alaska to work in the oil industry - does this make Alaska marginally part of the Upper South? If I'm not mistaken, didn't hordes of Southern people move to Bakersfield, California? Should that city be marked as a green outlier on the map?
This state was one of the first to outlaw slavery, and was once the most industrialized. In the name of God, our southern border is THE Mason-Dixon line! Placing Pennsylvania in with states like Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, and even West Virginia is nothing short of a revision of history by overzealous "scholars", if they can be called that. In everything you can think of - cuisine, history, agriculture, industry, accent, ancestry, architecture, economy, climate, and on and on - this state is quintessentially Mid-Atlantic, which is ultimately a derivative of Yankee culture, not the culture of Virginia that dominated the upper South. That's true in every county from Greene to Wayne.
Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois likely have no place on this map either, but I'll leave their questionable inclusion up to people from those states to repudiate. At least with Pennsylvania removed, the map is more accurate. -- 67.171.69.122 ( talk) 04:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
-- 67.171.69.122 ( talk) 00:58, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
It sounds to me as if a good deal of this argument is about the Civil War and slave era boundary. The fact of the matter is that there are not hard fast barriers separating people of one state form another. If you went from Michigan to Georgia you may very well see a large shift in culture, architecture etc but no boundary is that solid when the subject is culture or even geography. The claim that southern Ohio (my birthplace) is in the Upland South is not in any way a claim that the entirety of Ohio is a southern state from the Civil War. The idea behind making the description is that between the deep south and the north (I don't know a technical name for the region) is an area of relatively similar cultural identity or physical similarity (which I believe is more of what this article is getting at) that can be described as the Upland South. It is in no way a claim to a certain status in Ohio. What I can say is that the history of Ohio does indeed bear out that Cincinnati, at least, does have a history of ties and similarity to the South in various ways despite general shifts over time. The other issue to take into account is that naming regions is an approximate thing. Southern Ohio could be part of the Upland South and also part of the Midwest because there is not a solid black line separating the two. 128.223.147.11 ( talk) 02:32, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Let's get Oklahoma in this article. The bias is just too thick to bear. Anyone who knows anything about geography knows that Oklahoma hosts part of this region. Let's get with it people. Missouri but not Oklahoma? Good God —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kryan74 (
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contribs) 18:16, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I think this article should be split; Upper South and Upland South are two completely different concepts. Redirecting Upper South (a state-based political grouping that includes all of NC and Virginia) to Upland South (a terrain-based cultural grouping that excludes the Virginia Tidewater and most of NC) just makes for one hopelessly confused article where there could be two simple ones. There's no such confusion present in the Deep South article. CarolinianJeff ( talk) 20:33, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
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I think the Upland South in North Carolina is really southern and not Upstate Raleigh so it's going to be really hard to make me Monterey again since we are the Upland South. -- I Have Always Been a Twin ( talk) 15:16, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
The “as a cultural region” section is badly written, starting by asserting cultural differences across a range of specified areas but then either failing to provide any detail or asserting (as for example with cuisine) that there aren’t really any differences. Someone familiar with the sources could usefully edit some sense into this? MapReader ( talk) 00:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't understand how Western Maryland is included in the "Upland South" here yet places like Southern Maryland, the Eastern Shore, and Slower Lower Delaware aren't included.-- DruidLantern8 ( talk) 14:04, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
By definition "upland South" cannot be west of the Mississippi River (hardly "upland"). I also question whether you can call the Ohio River valley the upland South. Did it have the same culture? Citation please.
In other words, Oklahoma, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, the west of Kentucky and Tennessee, and most of Alabama except a little NE corner, are not part of the Upland South, or Upper South either, abd should not be colored. If I knew how I'd fix it myself, buf I don't. deisenbe ( talk) 12:05, 20 January 2022 (UTC)