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Is there really convincing evidence that the legendary Welsh Prince seteled in America? Maybe the therory could be stated, but I doubt its evidence is incrontrovertable.
The wording "...cultural dominance of the United States..." is funny and inaccurate.By cultural dominance we can understand obviously some parts of mass media cultural products, like movies from the big californian studios, few trade names in the industry like Coca-Cola or Burger King, and many names in pop-music. However culture refers commonly to much wider areas in the literature, fine arts and social sciences which are more important in any country than the imported *products* of some american corporates. I think the sentence should be changed to better express the difference between the global market of mass media cultural products, where USA is the dominant player and what is culture as a whole. In fact, yes, I agree, because the total aggregate of the system equals a beknowst amount which could be used in a beneficial manner subsequently over the possessions formerly held by innovative strategies and technological bums. -- AntonioB 16:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Um, no. The US can be said to be culturally dominant for any number of reasons. It is the primary reason why English is still the world's most popular 2nd language, 50 years after the fall of the British Empire. American literature is an important contribution to world literature, esp. in the 20th century. New York has been a center for the publishing industry for over a century. Several religions and sects, such as the church of Latter-Day Saints, the Southern Baptist Convention, and Seventh-day Adventists originated in the US. Many constitutions and declarations of independence written after 1776 borrow structure or content from the US ones, even if they have more European or socialist forms of government. You might also have heard of the little thing called the "United Nations", a US-founded project which is increasingly at odds with the US but nevertheless founded on its principles. In every respect, the US can be said to be culturally dominant. Certainly, there is no country that can match the US in this regard. (Identity0, not logged in)
Re: PENDING TASKS! I am trying to add more depth than "strong manufacturing sector", and "capitalist economy" (without lengthinging it). People come to wikipedia to learn, not to be told nothing by a group of people afraid from saying somthing. Be bold and improve on my edit. Please do not continue to revert back to a poor summary of the CIA factbook! Thanks, -- Sansvoix 02:30, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
-- Sansvoix 08:00, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Please stop sabatoging this article, Nicholas F. Your problem with my addition seems not to be my use of the english language, but instead the fact that I am not writing disinformation you want, loaded with fuzzy words and jargon! You clearly are attempting to encourage the reader to move on, and not think about the economic facts which I am fairly adressing. Your additions, at first glance, seem appropriate, but in actuality they are an attempt to hijack the facts.
For example, you changed: "The United States falls behind most industrialized countries in terms of social welfare and its social safety net." To "The United States, when compared to most industrialized countries, trades off smaller government-provided social welfare and social safety net for greater opportunity for individual entrepreneurial activity and more flexibility in its labor markets.
For those of you reading this, Nicholas F has changed what once was a fact, to a faraway concept glossed over, and imediatly justified. Which belongs in a encyclopedia? Furthermore, a concise explanation for the mechanics of neoliberalism (as well as a link) was already there, but it too was modified.
It shouldn't take me 5 days to edit one article, but I feel Wikipedia needs to be a source of information, not a mashing togeather of glossed over concepts linked with propaganda! And it's not just Nicholas who is doing this! I'm seeing it more and more! Can someone help me out here?-- Sansvoix 00:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
There is something i've noticed about the description of the US economy. It mentions that the US 'has the largest economy in the world'. I checked the EU article and checked the 'Economy' section and it mentioned the same thing: 'The EU has the largest economy in the world'. Now both countries (The EU isn't really a country yet just so you know) can't have 'largest economy in the world'. I'll try to find data on their GDPs and update both articles. However, i'd like other people to let me know if there is something wrong or if i'm wrong myself. --Germi91 Tuesday 10:37 AM GMT+1 13/12/05
Here lies the raw disagreement, as of 08:53, 23 October 2005 (UTC):
Pt 1 -Regarding neoliberalism
-OR-
Pt 2 -Global economy
-OR-
Comments welcome! -- Sansvoix 08:58, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
RFC comment. Generally, being more precise aids in being less judgemental. First, "previously" is too vague in relation to Keynesian economics. Be specific, and say from the 30s to the 70s. Second, find some comparative statistics to put in the second sentence of Pt1 - in relation to government share of GDP, share of public services like water, health and education, life expectancy, distribution of income etc. Third, "individual economic rights" is too vague to be meaningful. Is it an economic right to have good healthcare? Rights to corporations has some meaning but again is very vague. Fourth, put "the US financial sector is the strongest in the world," with statistics to back that up if it's true. US economic dominance overseas is linked to IMF etc, but not limited to financial sector and deserves more than half a sentence. Again, more precision is better. Finally, giving more space overall to the US economy summary in this article (main article is separate), the biggest and most important for the global economy, seems fair. I mean, do we really need that table of top-twenty cities and populations, and boringly-similar pictures of the top three? Rd232 talk 17:19, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
My suggestion - from a Non-American, as requested.
-- Ravikiran 14:19, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Sansvoix, I am very disappointed at your lack of substantive response to date to the objections that I have raised. Contrary to your claim, everything you have done has not been backed up on the discussion page. I find it ironic that you feel the right to freely edit the text of other contributors but feel that your own language is in someway sacrosanct. Your continued use of loaded words, such as “exploit”, “falls behind”, and “capital owners” as well as your rewriting the first paragraph to emphasize ideology rather than economic (see Ravikirin’s comments above) suggest that you are more interested in pushing an ideological agenda than contributing to Wikipedia’s project of creating an objective online encyclopedia.
I will once again list my objections and invite you to address these with substantive comments:
Finally, Ravkirin makes some other good points, particularly that the section should start with a description of the economy and not economic policies. The first two sentences from the CIA’s World Factbook section on the US economy make a better starting overview. The discussion of policy should be moved to the end of the section. Nicholas F 17:28, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Since the Reagan administration, the economy of the United States has followed the neo-liberal model, which advocates limited government intervention in the economy and trade, and advocates greater rights for corporations. From the 30's to the late 70's, the United States was a proponent of Keynesian economics, a theory which claims government intervention is necessary for market and social stability. Today, the United States falls behind most industrialised nations in terms of social welfare and its social safety net, areas it poineered in following Franklin D. Roosevelt's adoption of Keynesian economics
And,
The US Financial sector is the strongest in the world, achieving capital gains through exploiting markets, labour and resources, primarily in nations open to the global economic policies supported by the IMF, WTO and World Bank.
As of this time of writing, the US 'society' section has 7 paragraphs on RACE, 1 on religion, 3 on education, 2 on language, 3 on culture, and 2 on sports.
I don't know about Americans, but the rest of society does not primarily devide itself on basis of RACE!!!
There is no mention of quality of living, poverty, wealth, class, or anything to meaningfully base society on. This is disgusting. Anyone want to help me fix this? -- Sansvoix 02:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Now, turning back to Matt Yeager: You must lead a very sheltered life in a very bland area of the United States. For once, visit a bookstore (and I mean a big one like Barnes & Noble) and browse the magazines (and I mean the serious ones like the New Republic and the Atlantic Monthly). Turn on the television and watch some of the major networks. What underlies so many punch lines on Saturday Night Live and Mad TV? Race. What gets the headlines? Race. Remember O.J. Simpson? The trial of the century? The race card? What gets people focused on the U.S. Supreme Court (well, besides abortion)? Race. What did people just riot about in Toledo, Ohio, and not that long ago, in Cincinnati? Race. What issue has resulted in several constitutional amendments, and the passing (and eventual judicial overturning) of literally thousands of federal and state laws? Race. What issue dominates every major election, employment decision, traffic stop, casual encounter, award ceremony, etc.? Race. Remember Denzel Washington? Clarence Thomas?
I agree that other issues like class and gender should be also discussed in the main United States article. But please get your facts straight before you deprecate race as a an issue of continuing importance to contemporary American society. -- Coolcaesar 02:34, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
In order to save a bit of time, I'm cutting out the colons, okay? ;)
Your first paragraph... what's the point there? That only people who live in big cities have reasonable opinions on race? As a matter of fact, in the Tri-Cities, Washington, there's (give or take) a 75/25 split on whites/non-whites (not far off from the nat'l average, and much closer than LA is). I have white, Hispanic, black, and Asian friends, and trust me--race just almost NEVER comes up. It's just not that big a deal. Maybe it is where you live, I don't know.
Forget affirmative action cases for a second, okay? Two of your main examples (Brown v Board, "Black Like Me") come from over forty years ago. This isn't an article on the history of American society--if it were, then race would deserve a far greater section than it deserves for society today.
As for recent affirmative action cases and such--sure, that's notable... but not extraordinarily so. Definitely, race as an issue is still out there... but it's not that much in most pats of the United States.
I'm going to quote you here, and you tell me how this makes sense...
"As for casual encounters, you're obviously not familiar with the huge literature (again, I suggest visiting a Barnes & Noble sometime) on race relations. Remember Danny Glover's complaints in 1999 about not being able to hail a taxi? How about John Howard Griffin's Black Like Me?"
I'm totally lost. Literature is different than casual encounters. Black Like Me was fifty years old. I don't remember Danny Glover complaining about not being able to hail a taxi, but why is that notable? People have difficulty flagging down taxis all the time.
And, in closing, if police infringing on minority rights is a major component of rap, I must really be missing something. In all I've heard, it deals mostly with drugs, guns, and (for lack of a better term) getting girls to shake it like a Polaroid picture. :) Matt Yeager 05:30, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
In the port rankings, the given rankings give an inaccurate picture. The ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach are tops of the list in total value of trade, but ports like Houston and New Orleans are three to four times busier than the California ports in terms of tonnage. In fact, many ports in America are much busier than the ports listed as the top in America in this article. LA and Long Beach figures are skewed higher because of the high value of the imports they receive - namely high tech products and cars; while the much busier ports elsewhere transact more in less precious basic commodities. In the shipping industry, Los Angeles and Long Beach are considered almost minor compared to the massive operations around Houston and New Orleans. see http://www.aapa-ports.org/pdf/2003_US_PORT_CARGO_TONNAGE_RANKINGS.xls
Also, a ranking of the top cities in terms of population is misleading. Metropolitan area rankings should instead by used. I am from Austin but there is no way it can be considered more important than Atlanta or Miami, which are missing from the list while Austin is present.
Finally, despite the painfully obvious efforts of our Seattle based friends, Seattle is not worth mentioning except where it ranks in objective measures - meaning nowhere. If you think your home city is important, cite facts that prove it.
jasoncward 11:21, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I feel obliged to revert the comment,
because there is no evidence -- no citation, nothing in the Talk page -- to support the claim that a debate is ongoing. And the comment is "fluffy" in that no debators are mentioned by name or affiliation. It just isn't "wiki" enough to be included here. That's not to say you can't document the comment and put it back later. I just feel that, for now at least, the comment should be kept out of the article.-- GraemeMcRae talk 06:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Someone (not logged in, but using an IP address that has a fairly long history of useful edits) added a Science section, an addition which was reverted a short time later by User:Tyler McHenry with the explanation that gave four things wrong with the new section: (1) POV, (2) vague and (3) not a useful addition, (4) not in line with Wikipedia style. My opinion is that it might be possible to address each one of these objections, and turn the section into a valuable addition to the article. I do agree with User:Tyler McHenry, though, that it isn't suitable as it stands. In the hope of resurrecting it some time in the future, and to take some of the sting out of the revert for the person who submitted it in the first place, here it is, exactly as it was in the article, ready to be edited and improved:
Now, for my ideas about how to improve it. First, if the section is about Science, let's confine it to science, and not engineering. Second, let's just say what the U.S. has accomplished in science without speculating on how this has strengthened our economy. God knows, we don't want to step into that! If the author knows how many papers have been published by people of each nationality, and how many patents have been awarded to people of each nationality, lay those factoids on us! Otherwise, let's just stick to what we do know -- the Nobel prize count is well documented. And if you're going to pick out some great inventions for which the United States is known, can you please pick something like the transistor instead of the atomic bomb? As far as the funding of science is concerned, much of it is funded by corporations, not the U.S. government. Bell Labs, for example, was a powerhouse of science from 1925 to 1984, funded completely by AT&T and the Bell System. So if the author has information about the funding of science by country, and in particular whether (and by what amount) funding has declined during the Bush Administration, then, please lay those factoids on us, too. So the next paragraph is what remains of the section after the unsubstantiated parts have been excised and the one part I know how to substantiate has been substantiated. I invite the original author (or anyone else) to answer the questions I've raised here, and either fix the paragraph, above, or add to this paragraph:
-- GraemeMcRae talk 08:39, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
"First patents for the transistor-principle were registered in 1928 by Julius Edgar Lilienfeld in Germany" -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor. I'm sure US citizens have invented stuff, but apparently not the transistor. Manufacturing isn't exactly inventing. What;s wrong with the atom bomb? (hmmm, maybe that was German too ;)) - Simon
I remember back in the late 90's, the estimated population of the United States was over 360 million. Now they are saying that there's less than 300 million people in the US?
Ohh...jeez. You know that picture of the dollar bill under Economy?
Is it considered counterfeit, or am I ranbling? Because if it is an exact copy, then wouldn't the US government be in flames about this? Or something? There should be something saying "Fake" or "counterfeit" on it, like play money... anyway... Flameviper12 16:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Alright, I moved a boatload of stuff over to a daughter article here. Thoughts? Improvements? Matt Yeager 01:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
RJ I revised the opening paragraphs by removing irrelevant materials, mentioning Puerto Rico, and condensing the section on pre-1492. 67.176.74.236 22:01, 7 November 2005 (UTC)Richard Jensen 11/7/05
Why does the final box, "International Ties of the United States", list "Continent of Europe" and "European Union"? Is there some logic here that I'm missing?
The area of the US is 3,537,441 square miles, not 2,808,072 square miles. I've edited accordingly.
And who put in the above note? Anyway, don't good sources on area occupied by jurisdiction usually say something like "1,000 square units (including 200 square units of inland water, but excluding 500 square units of inland water); 1,500 square units (including 700 square units of inland water)"? This should be clarified. The U.S. has plenty of large bodies of inland water whose inclusion or exclusion as part of the total area can greatly change the figure. President Lethe 17:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
In the picture of Americana (baseball bat, US flag), why is the apple pie there? Apple pie originated in Europe, I believe, not North America.
See Apple pie in American culture. :-) President Lethe 01:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Apple pie in American culture: "using his penis to penetrate a homemade apple pie, having earlier been told that a vagina feels like "warm apple pie", illustrating the pie's place in American culture..." Now I understand!-- sansvoix 04:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
1. I used the word superpower in the introductory paragraph: "Also referred to, with varying formality, as the United States, the U.S. (or the US), the U.S.A. (or the USA), the U.S. of A. (or the US of A), the States, and America [1], the superpower consists of fifty federal states and one federal district."
2. It was removed as being point of view.
3. I specifically linked to the " Superpower" article—which readers should see, along with many other sources (too numerous to list; both in Wikipedia and without), to determine the term's validity when it's applied to the U.S.
4. I inserted the term as a relatively agreed-upon fact. My insertion is not meant to say that superpowers are good or bad, and is not meant to say whether it is good or bad that the U.S. is a superpower. It is simply a thing that most persons familiar with the word would agree on. If you ask "What nation or nations is or are superpowers in the world today?", the first answer almost invariably will be the U.S., in whatever country you ask the question.
5. I inserted it in the introductory paragraph for this reason: it seems to me reasonable that an encyclopedia article's opening paragraph on a country should provide four basic bits of information: (a) the name by which the country is generally known in the language of the article; (b) the general form of the country's government; (c) the general geographic location of the country; and (d) anything that is highly likely to be considered a defining characteristic of the country, such as some sort of extreme (largest population, smallest area, northernmost, southernmost, coldest, rainiest, only one with absolute monarchy, whatever, ... or superpower).
6. The opening paragraph gives common names of the U.S. in English; gives a very basic description of the form of government; offers the general location on the globe; and describes a feature that, in this case, is not only a defining characteristic but, indeed, is considered by many to make the country unique (the only one of its kind) in the world. In introducing a country, it's likely to be interesting, informative, and useful to the reader to offer some detail that sets the country off from most, or all, others. We could point out the United States' high rank in land area or in population; but the U.S. is only close to the top in those areas, not actually superlative—while it is a superpower, and is very often defined, by experts and laypersons alike, as the single superpower in the present world.
7. Later in the same article are the words "Since the mid-20th century, following World War II, the United States emerged as the dominant global influence in economic, political, military, scientific, technological, and cultural affairs." That's a pretty good definition of a superpower. But, in the opening paragraph, we might want to be more concise, offering simply the word rather than the definition—and, as I said, the word superpower itself is a cross-reference to the " Superpower" article. There are many defining characteristics of the U.S.; but one of the most significant, and the one that may well make the U.S. unique in the present world, is the country's superpower status.
Please, consider these points. If there is disagreement, let's discuss it.
Thanks to all for their efforts with this article.
And, to those to whom it matters, Happy Thanksgiving!
President Lethe 16:13, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm looking at this page for the first time. It came up because we were trying to work out what to do visually for the Romania article. Much to my surprise, I found that this ( United States) is kind of visually mediocre. George Washington, G.W. Bush, Statue of Liberty: inevitable, fine. But three maps (two very dull at this scale) and an illegible (at this scale) chart on ancestry of Americans? Bland skyline shots of NYC, Chicago, and LA—it's hard to make the New York skyline look this dull, shoot it from Brooklyn Heights or across the Hudson in New Jersey! Dollar bill, sure. LA freeway interchange, OK. Highway sign, harmless (but why I-5, not the much more iconic Route 66?). A nice enough picture of a building at the University of Virginia, but nothing to shout about. Elvis on a stamp, fine. A rather cliched (though nicely done) picture of an apple pie, etc. atop an American flag: it isn't the Americana image I'd have chosen, but I guess it is one way to do Americana without going regional.
How about some wilderness? The U.S. has a lot of that. We have some amazing photos at Grand Canyon. A small town, maybe from New England? A Californian suburb? Something that shows the Spanish heritage of the Southwest? Or the image from Apollo Theater, or some equivalent? -- Jmabel | Talk 09:17, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
-- I love it when people who have never worked on this article come on and tell us how terrible it is. If you want to see a picture of the Grand Canyon, then why don't you just go ahead a put one in instead of just complaining about it? Many people have complained in the past about the lack of a picture of small-town America, but then they never actually try to post one. The city pics have been discussed at length and should be left as is. Anyone who says a pic from the top of the ESB building is "dull" probably needs to see an eye doctor. -- Jleon 00:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
-- I think it should be pretty obvious that my comments directly addressed the complaints of Jmabel, and not yours. Ok, so your upset that something you wrote about the economy got reverted. Well, did you even bother to start a discussion here about it? -- Jleon 04:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
-- If you're talking about that stuff above, it looks to me like you and Nicholas F were just arguing about the use of the word "exploit", and apparently no one else felt the debate was compelling enough to join in. The bottom line is that all of the complaints about the pics are over things that no one has even tried to include yet. -- Jleon 04:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Jleon, usually on articles that have a large number of active editors and a great deal of discussion, I consider it more polite to make suggestions on the talk page and seek responses, rather than wade in and start editing. But if you think that it is more appropriate that I wade in and delete the images that I consider contribute very little and replace them with ones more to my liking, I will gladly do so. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Despite what I said in the previous paragraph, I don't like to wade in and stomp on articles other people have been working hard on. So I have merely added two images that I think are a positive. I figure I will wait for reactions before doing more. Jleon, if this isn't bold enough to satisfy you, just let me know: I'll check your user contribution list and see if I can find something to dispute, if that's your idea of a good time. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
-- I haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about. If everyone decided to write a detailed opinion about the overall article before they "wade in", this would be pretty slow going. Perhaps if you check the talk archives you'll have a better sense of what changes people will likely be more receptive to. The two changes you made were fine though, and I doubt if anyone will try to remove them. -- Jleon 01:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Maybe you need to get a "clue" here, no need for snotty language! I find Jmabel very easy to understand. We don't want be forced to write detailed opinions backing up minor changes, but even when tried, it is compleatly useless as the other guy tends to respond even more intolerently. But more importantly, you are using degrading language, and not just with your intitial sentance.. "perhaps if you check" is rude, please say something such as "Have you checked argument X in the recent archive?" Social skills are important on the internet, as they are in real life! I've been known to be anti-social on occasion but.. common, your just being blantantly hostile. -- sansvoix 06:18, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I saw in the "pending tasks" list that pictures are needed. Picture number four from my political image gallery is public domain picture of a U.S. map of 1820 showing free and slave territories. Click it for the full sized version. -Barry- 22:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
The foundation date has stood for some time as 1607 (Jamestown). Calling the date of the first permanent European settlement within the present boundaries the date of foundation of the United States, seems to me quite a stretch. Being the first British settlement to last, it could also be the foundation of Canada. Was Israel founded when the first settlers arrived there? Or perhaps, instead, the foundation of the USA should be pushed further back to the first permanent human settlers: Native Americans?-- JimWae 05:03, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
would you like to publish this article? -- Zondor 22:09, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Polls say that 85 percent of Americans are Christian . No reference made . If you make the link to religion in the united states that appears above this claim you will find a table that suggest the figure is 79.8 percent. Seemingly a conflict there.
Believe me, while Spanish is used in limited communities throughout the U.S., it is not as common as one might think. I have lived in southern Arizona my entire life, and Spanish is not even common in "everyday commerce" as mentioned below. Spanish is used, but no more so than French in communities in the Northeast along the southeastern Canadian border. English is the majority, dominant, de facto language by a long shot, French and Spanish follow greatly in the distance. AZCactus1 18:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
For a long time, English has been the common first language of Americans, but now I hear Spanish is getting popular. Any info on Wikipedia about this?? Georgia guy 22:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Actually, guys, using Spanish as a primary language is much more common than you think, and growing all the time because of immigration. It may not be that evident in most parts of the U.S., but the population along the U.S.-Mexico border is booming, and native Spanish speakers are not assimilating linguistically in these areas as other waves of non-English speaking immigrants did in the past. The push-factors that drove assimilation in the 19th and early 20th Century are no longer as strong as they were, when they still exist at all It is very easy for Mexican immigrants who remain in Texas and the Southwest to use Spanish first and foremost into the second and third generation. The geographic proximity of Mexico, internet and telecommunications technology, etc., has changed the entire dynamic. A Russian immigrant coming through Ellis Island in 1910 might have moved to an ethnic neighborhood in NYC, but there was virtually no contact with the old country, and little Russian "media" available, as it were. When mass immigration from Eastern Europe slowed, then stopped, there was also no fresh supply of native Rusian speakers to keep the old language going as at least some of the children and grandchildren of the original immigrants moved up and out.
That's all different now. The current wave of immigration is overwhemingly from a single country, Mexico, and there's no ocean separating El Paso from Ciudad Juarez. Spanish language TV, internet, newspapers and magazines, etc., are plentiful, and travel back and forth from the new country to the old-- even for illegal migrants-- is commonplace. Moreover, with no signs of this immigraion explosion abating, the constant influx of new Spanish speakers creates a "critical mass" for the language pool that allows it to slef-perpetuate and grow. Philologists and linguistic researchers have been documenting this phenomenon in the State for over a decade now, but its always a very sensitive area since people are fearful of being labelled racists or bigots, and its difficult to talk about language without also addressing race, ethnicity, and assimilation: always political bombshells.
But to stick strictly with language-- you are right, Spanish isn't about to displace English any time soon, and a command of English will be necessary for at least a long, long time to really be upwardly mobile in the States.
FYI, I made one change to the "language" section, deleting a line asserting that Spanish was on the rise in the U.S. in part because 1/5th of the country was formerly Mexico. That, at least, is NOT responsible for Spanish increasing in the States. That was over 150 years ago! Texas and the Southwest were relatively sparsely populated at the time of the Mexican-American War, and the English-speaking population of the annexed areas (mostly resident in central and north Texas) outnumbered the Spanish-speaking population back then. It was only subsequent immigration and high-birth rates that increased the Spanish-speaking population, not the annexation process itself. Perhaps a minor point, but by the same logic, the entire Louisiana-Purchase area should be seeing an increase in French-speakers since it was once part of France.
Comment by Bugs the Bunny This is a fascinating discussion with a remarkably complicated set of factors influencing the primary issue, i.e., the persistence of Spanish in the United States. For a long, long time, many years, I used to be of the opinion that the current importance of and fascination with Spanish would be a passing trend, of little significance in 30 years. However, after many years of real-world experience throughout the US (and more than a few studies analyzing this phenomenon), I’ve now come to the opposite conclusion: The evidence is overwhelming that the Spanish language in the US has genuine staying power. It won’t “displace” English per se, but I now strongly suspect that Spanish will have a permanence in the USA alongside English and a prevalence, even for official purposes, not accorded other non-English languages. Spanish increasingly has the feel not of an outsider emerging from abroad, but as an essential medium of communication in the United States, used across the board for basic discourse. Here are my reasons:
1. Enormous pressure and bona fide incentives to speak Spanish fluently, across a wide variety of jobs and professions—-with corresponding social and even political pressure as well. This has led to the curious phenomenon of large numbers of *Anglos* (in the sense of people whose native tongue is American English) working very hard to master Spanish, in a way that really has not happened for other languages—-at least, not since the heyday of French and German in the late 19th century, when many well-educated Americans worked to learn these languages. The current significance of Spanish has a more grass-roots feel to it.
I used to work jobs in sales, and one of the most recurrent themes in this line of work is that the bilingual employees got the jobs first! Spanish fluency was not only a plus factor-—for people working behind the counter or patrolling the floors to answer questions, it was often *the* deciding factor in hiring. In retail jobs from coast to coast, knowledge of Spanish confers a tremendous advantage to an applicant over monolingual speakers of English alone. The management of the stores, in turn, is also encouraged to become conversant in Spanish. This is the case in a wide variety of cities-—New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., Baltimore, Seattle, pretty much anywhere in the Southwest or Florida, and these days even many places I would not at all have expected (Atlanta, the Carolinas, St. Louis and Kansas City, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Providence, Hartford, Newark, Indianapolis, even Milwaukee).
Sales jobs are one of the most important mainstays of broad employment in the US and significant for the extent to which they involve interpersonal interaction, and an incredibly strong economic incentive has arisen in recent years to master Spanish for them. This in turn imposes a strong social pressure to master the language and, consequently, increases the “cachet” of Spanish in social circles. Retail jobs are just one example. Graduates in law, business and medicine have much better job prospects especially in big metro areas, if they’re at least conversant in Spanish. Many law firms and hospitals look preferentially on Spanish-speaking job-seekers because they can save literally *millions* of dollars for the institutions. In turn, applicants to law, medical and business schools frequently get a leg up if they can communicate in conversational Spanish. Thus there is a profound *economic disadvantage* in numerous professions to being an English monolingual, and conversely a big economic incentive to being fluent in Spanish. In this sense, Spanish is becoming closer to an essential mode of communication for US business alongside English, rather than being considered something outside the standard way of doing things—-that is, communication in Spanish is being normalized and becoming more mainstream.
2. Spanish is being *retained* across generations to an exceptional extent. We’ve probably all heard the trite assumption that immigrants retain their native tongue in the first generation, go bilingual in the second, then monolingual English in the third. I’ve always been skeptical about this assumption to begin with (Native Americans have retained their languages for millennia for example, German is still spoken in some homes in the Midwest and Pennsylvania, and as any Orthodox Jewish family knows, Hebrew is fundamental no matter what the generation). However, to a rough approximation it does sort of describe the way many descendants of immigrants lose their connections to their ancestral tongue after several generations. This is *not* happening for Spanish, even when geographical movement and intermarriage with Anglos occur. For a while this was occurring, for better or worse because native Spanish speakers did face some discrimination and enormous pressure to become Anglophone only (kids were physically punished in school for speaking Spanish, for example). But Spanish is now so prevalent and widely accepted, that no school official with a dollop of sense even thinks about punishing students for using Spanish anymore (unless he or she has plans to join the unemployment rolls), and so the “stick” against using Spanish, that disincentive, is largely gone.
We’ll have to wait a couple decades to fully see the effects, but retention of Spanish among 3rd and 4th generation Hispanic immigrants in, say, 2015 will be much higher than their counterparts in, for example, 1985. That’s not only because of the virtual elimination of official disincentives to maintaining Spanish (which were quite strong in the 1970’s and 1980’s), but because of the many incentives to retaining it, especially if learned from an early age: Spanish in 2005-2006 is seen to confer a great advantage on those who can speak it as a native tongue, in contrast to being a “hindrance” shed on the path toward supposed assimilation, as would have been seen in earlier decades. I have many friends who are third-generationers with ancestors from Puerto Rico, Cuba or Honduras, and not only are they maintaining Spanish as a critical language for home and even work in many cases; they’re making sure the kids master it as their first language as well.
A corollary to this phenomenon is that many Hispanics who *hadn’t* been taught Spanish as kids—-often as a consequence of discrimination their parents had endured—-are now avidly going back and mastering the language, with the help of family members who are now much more open about passing the language on. That is, they’re either relearning Spanish or picking it up for the first time. Again, this is fairly unique; in the past, when an immigrant group had given up a language in later generations, they were in many ways kissing it goodbye. In the case of Spanish, it’s actually returning to that subset of third- and fourth-generationers who might otherwise have spurned it.
Perhaps most surprising is the persistence of Spanish even among mixed Latino-Anglo couples. This sort of intermarriage used to be a way, in a sense, to break the bonds with the old country and bring people into the “Anglo” majority. But it’s remarkable how many such mixed couples now have kids who are raised to be native Spanish-speakers, possibly in part because of the demographic prevalence of Latino culture but also, again, because of the economic incentives to mastering Spanish early. Even many Anglo kids now are being enrolled in “dual-immersion” English-Spanish classes as kids, learning subjects like math, history and reading in Spanish as well as English, and from an early age, in general, enhancing their academic abilities. So there are indications that Spanish is not only holding its ground but gaining new speakers among the formerly Anglo population across generations.
3. Spanish has both quasi-official and explicitly official status alongside English in many states and territories, to an extent far beyond any other non-English language. Spanish is official, of course, in New Mexico and in Puerto Rico as well as in a number of cities particularly in the Southwest, and it might as well be official across the states of the Southwest and in much of Florida. Everything from ballots to legal pronouncements is now printed in Spanish along with English in states such as California and Texas. In hospitals from San Diego to El Paso to Boston, Spanish is next to English on all the signs overhead. Whatever the statutes on bilingual education, it’s still practiced de facto in many schools with a high Hispanic population density. (Some have argued that the California referendum paradoxically strengthened bilingual education there by virtue of the many concessions made and the official, legal recognition of bilingual teaching.)
You all have brought up the issue of Spanish labeling on packages already, and I agree that one must regard the impact of this phenomenon with some caution; still, I find remarkable the sheer reach of Spanish labeling and packaging throughout stores across the USA, even in regions not associated with high Hispanic immigration levels. In major outfits like Best Buy, Wal-Mart and Home Depot, practically all the aisles and displays are bilingual in English and Spanish. The majority of the products have both Spanish and English packaging (as well as French in some cases). This is also the case for the signage on public transportation (trains and buses) in numerous localities. Most banks and post offices now have information posted bilingually, and supermarkets routinely offer Spanish-language automatic check-out lines (which get a lot of use, in quite a few places).
This is remarkable—-honestly, just one year ago, *one year*, I didn’t see all that much Spanish printed on the signs or on the labels, but it’s ubiquitous today. That’s how quickly the Spanish labeling phenomenon has caught on. Companies don’t do this sort of thing out of charity—-they do it as a hard-nosed business decision to boost profitability and gain market share, and in this case, a vast range of companies has clearly recognized a bottom-line benefit in the inclusion of Spanish labeling and packaging. This sort of official and quasi-official status for a language is extremely important and, I think, a potentially overlooked factor that assists a language’s growth. It simply confers a level of prestige upon Spanish in the USA that most other languages do not enjoy.
4. The Spanish language has a flourishing media presence within US borders that far exceeds what other non-English languages are able to manage or have managed in the past. US newspapers in languages other than English are nothing new, of course—-German newspapers, for example, were hardly surprising to find in the Midwest during the 1800’s. But profitable and expanding Spanish-language print media outlets are commonplace throughout the US, not only in strongholds like the Southwest, Florida or “Nueva York,” and in many cases these Spanish-language journals have been around for decades or even centuries. Major up-market bookstores carry Spanish-language titles (either originals or translations of US booksellers originally in English), while newsstands carry versions of People magazine or Reader’s Digest in Spanish.
Then of course there’s the prevalent and quite popular Spanish-language television, filled with shows with decent production values filmed in locales from Miami and Los Angeles to Santiago, Chile. Even many Anglos have drifted over to the Spanish stations. Spanish radio, obviously, has a strong presence in practically any major city. Driving through even less populated regions in the Midwest, it’s not at all surprising to encounter a highway billboard in Spanish, or to find Spanish-language advertising in a convenience store or specialty shop.
5. It’s much easier to retain contact with the home country, as was suggested above. For Latin America, this is in large part due to geography—- people don’t have to traverse an ocean to arrive here. But modern communications also greatly facilitates the retention of long-term relations with one’s extended family, friends and culture at home. Someone from Honduras or Bolivia (let alone Mexico or Cuba) does not have to cut links with the old country, nor do their descendants. As Latin American nations improve economically, moreover, they reduce the number of immigrants they send, but they also increase the prestige status of the Spanish language itself. So again, descendants of immigrants have a much easier time staying connected.
6. Finally, there’s the fact that Spanish, unlike most other languages, has a unique status alongside English as an early mode of communication at the earliest period of European settlement of North America. Even as England’s King James I chartered John Smith’s voyage of 1606-1607 (to found the Jamestown settlement, the first permanent overseas English colony), the Spaniards had already established some early missions in what’s now the USA, especially in the Southwest. We all know how this portion of Spanish America (and thence independent Mexico, after 1821) was transferred to the US after the Mexican War, and I agree with above comments that this prior presence of Spanish in and of itself has not magically led Spanish to become permanent in the USA. However, Mexican immigrants, especially to the Southwestern US, are moving into a region with which they already have a longstanding traditional and historical connection, and in which the Spanish language really has had a permanent presence since before the Jamestown settlement had even been established. I suspect this to be a rather minor factor in comparison to the others listed above, but it does seem to provide an extra layer of resistance to accusations that Spanish-speakers are somehow “un-American”—-with the constant presence of Spanish especially in those regions, the language is a sort of natural fit.
So in short, contrary to prior expectations (including my own expectations), Spanish really is “naturalizing” itself to the USA. It’s not a temporary bridge to be tossed out, but a strong and increasingly important, fundamental element of the general US culture itself.
Bugs the Bunny 08:44, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
The article has these two points. "The immense military and economic dominance of the United States has made foreign relations an especially important topic in its politics, with considerable concern about the image of the United States throughout the world.", and "The United States Armed forces are considered to be the most powerful military (of any sort) on Earth and their force projection capabilities are unrivaled by any other nation, or collaboration of nations."
Do these conform to the NPOV policy? The military dominance of the US is pretty clear indeed, but this sounds a bit too extreme, and you could think of counterexamples. For example, Russia posesses more nuclear weapons, and it could be argued that a united Russian-Chinese force would be quite a match to the US military force. I, therefore, think that the sentence should be rephrased somehow, so that the American military dominance remains clear, but it doesn't sound like "US can kick anyone butt anyway". Thoughts? Solver 21:59, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I disagree and think it's fine as is. It says "their force projection capabilities are unrivaled by any other nation, or collaboration of nations." This is true. Russia and China may have larger armies, but they do not possess the ability to project that force the same the U.S. does even if combined. It sounds extreme because that is what comes with being a "superpower." I personally don't see a problem. Gator (talk) 22:15, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed the "collaboration of nations" part, which is not clearly the case & does seem like POV. If it were the US against the entire rest of the world, the outcome is not clearly in the US's favor. -- JimWae 22:18, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
It's good that you came here to discuss this, but I reverted it, because this discussion has just started and I think it should finish before any changes to this part are made. Gator (talk) 22:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I think the burden is on anyone who wants to keep that part to demonstrate that it is not POV - and that it ought to be removed until such happens -- JimWae 22:26, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Saying that no other collaboration of nations can rival the US still doesn't sound right, as one can also use extreme examples - US against every other single country, then the outcome would likely not be a US victory. So thanks to Jim for removing this. Other articles already show the US power projection dominance - such as articles on aircraft carriers or carrier battle groups. When reading those, the situation becomes pretty clear.
Ahh, edit conflict. Then let me also add this point. Military of the United States asserts that the US army is superior, and shows exactly why (what equipment, spending, etc. make it superior), but doesn't use terms like "superior to any other collaboration of countries".
Personally, I feel that this falls under what WP:NPOV mentions - don't jump to conclusions instead of the reader, but show him the facts. I am confident that an assertion that the US army is superior to any other possible collaboration does not fall under the category of extremely obvious assertions - while, for example, the assertion that the US military operates more aircraft carries than anyone else, does. Solver 22:31, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, this is basically a gateway to a ton of other articles, so you can't dump all the info here. It's already too big. The link to the full article is there to provide proof. That said, the second part, "or collaboration of nations" is simply not correct (U.S. vs Entire World? U.S. loses), and the other articles do not support the claim. I say remove it. -- Dpark 23:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Alright... as I'm looking over the page, it looks really, really good. It's got a ton of useful information and (while it's longer than most articles) it really isn't too long. I think this page is just about ready to take a second try at becoming featured. The "pending tasks" thing at the top of the talk page has basically been reduced down to "make the page better", which (naturally) is going to be a never-ending job. I think this page is as good or better than most FA's. Thoughts? Matt Yeager 05:56, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
This page has been recognised to need work on various areas, specifically those listed on the top. But with such a high profile article it is very hard to make or discuss any changes (they tend to get reverted, people are impossible and rude, etc). There are several parts of the article that are overly detailed, yet others that are tediously vague and rambling. --All the best for anyone trying to fix the thing, I've had to give up. I have spent several hours researching and editing the page (not to mention the time spent trying to explain my changes to the economics section --to no avail). Everything was reverted, some of it piece by piece over days, which I though was pretty odd. But if thats the way Wikipedia works, theres not much I can do!-- sansvoix 07:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Human rights in the United States needs to be linked to from this article, presumably from someplace in the government section. Where? JeffBurdges 15:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Alright, it seems that the page Social issues in the United States is what really needs to be linked from this article, probably by giving it a small subsection under either government or society. Human rights in the United States can be given an inline link from there? Seem okay? JeffBurdges 22:56, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Is it even necessary to include Largest Cities as a heading? I know that America is a large and economically powerful nation, but is it so powerful such that it warrants a title of its Largest cities? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.46.241 ( talk • contribs) 02:42, 4 December 2005
I totally agree. I don't see any other nation putting up Largest Cities as one of their headings. Why is it that the United Statesa has a largest city heading? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flackson ( talk • contribs) 02:47, 4 December 2005
True consensus? The only consensus that I know of is a bunch of hyperinflated, thrasonical fools who object to any change that might desecrate their "glory." This is absolutely ridiculous. No other nation, except for you pompous peoples, are so indulged by their power that you put the most trifling subjects as part of your nation. Largest Cities? Who cares? In case you guys haven't noticed, Britain was the most powerful nation in the 19th century, yet it has no heading such as "Largest Cities"? You guys have to get over this notion that you guys are the most powerful nation on this earth. Wake up from your arrogant slumber before its too late! -- Flackson
--What do you mean you agree with them "all"? So far only Flackson and sansvoix have stated they would like it to be removed, and including my comments makes it four against removal and three that are for it (hardly a consenus to remove). There's absolutely nothing arrogant about the section, and if "Sports" is going to have its own subheading you can't call "Cities" an unworthy topic for inclusion on this article. -- Jleon 17:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
--It's perfectly appropriate for the article about any nation to contain a section about that country's major cities. Cities are not so much about power as they are about people and culture, and its strange that you would misunderstand this. It really seems to be anti-americanism that is driving the idea to remove this section, despite the fact that everything contained there is completely factual. -- Jleon 22:54, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
--And its funny how "Flackson" is an anon, while sansvoix has no real user or discussion page at all- perhaps this is really just a sock puppet brigade anyway. -- Jleon 23:24, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Keep the list. Do not feed the trolls. Note that Flackson's first post on Wikipedia was on this page, where he contributed "America sucks. It just does. I'm American myself and I hate it here. It's full of ****. User:Zoe| (talk) 23:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
-- sansvoix 00:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
-Well, seeing that you and Thorri are the only ones who feel that way, I guess you'll just have to find a way to sleep at night knowing that us "arrogant fools" are having our say with the article. No one has ever called me a 'nationalist' before, so I won't be taking your accusation to heart. -- Jleon 00:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Sansvoix, I respect you--really, I do--but you're wrong on this one. The United States ought to have pertinent information on its site, same as any other country. In the United States (as opposed to so many other countries), there are several really, really important cities to the country (As in, if you remove the 10th biggest American city and the 10th biggest Portuguese city, and the impact on the U.S. is a lot bigger than the impact on Portugal. A higher proportion of American importance and self-assigned value is placed on the cities--in other countries, not so much.) Sure, there's no list of important cities in the UK article, but there's an entire section on terminology. Does that somehow mean that the UK is more important than, say, Portugal, which doesn't have a similar section? Umm, no.
Sorry, you're just way off on this on pretty much every part. To sum up everyone's pro-list arguments: All articles don't have to be identical, with only names and facts changing... and the fact that there are many signifigant cities in their country is a bigger thing to Americans than other countries' citizens, and therefore to the country in question. Got it? Matt Yeager 00:36, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Matt Yeager, thank you for your respect, but I don't see how you can stand by and ignore the way I am being treated! I bring up ligitimate concerns time and time again here (3 of the sections on this talk page), and time and time again I am simply insulted in reponse. Name calling is not appropriate anywhere in life, let alone a place that is supposed to be academic! I don't know if Jleon is trying to provoke a response by stating those lies above your comment, or if he is attempting to discredit my efforts. The irony of this situation does not excape me though! Jleon, You pretend I call you arrogant, while using a very arrogant and rude tone! If you wern't so serious, it would be very funny. On a serious note, you (and various others) are wasting my time, and the time of people who now have to sort through this nonsense to find the legitimate claims people are making. -- sansvoix 01:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
-- I'm not putting words in your mouth- you did call us 'nationalists' and in previous discussions you've called us 'zealots'. I'd really like for you find anything that I have written that is so explicitly rude, and I've never 'obstructed' anything (I actually told Jmbael that his images were fine in the discussion above). -- Jleon 01:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Ranking by Metropolitan areas tells more about the country - it shows where the population is most concentrated, which cities cannot contain all the people that for one reason or another live nearby - AND it would include more of the global cities. On Metro ranking, the present 1-20 cities would become 1 2 3 8 4 14 17 9 35 46 12 32 41 42 19 5 38 (notice there are 6 above 30). Also the metro areas ranked 6(Miami) 7(DC) 10(Boston) & 15(Seattle) are not even represented in the top 20 by city boundaries.-- JimWae 08:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
This is just silly. The reason there shouldn't be a list of 20 cities in the article has nothing to do with US nationalism, anti-americanism or anything else - it's just a poor format for a wikipedia article. Articles - particularly important ones, are written in prose. A list is an absolutely last resort for those that that think that cramming more "verifiable" information into an article might make it better. The populations of the top few cities might well be relevant, but Jacksonville, Fort Worth etc? Leave it out. No other prominent country articles engage in this sort of "space filler" nonsense. And if you think American cities are impressive in size, check out China's. So anyway: Scrap the list, replace it with some process detailing the top five or so most important cities, throw the rest in American cities if you like. Stevage 02:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
lets see if this helps progress things...
Delete and add link
Modify
Keep as is
-A consensus to keep the section (with some differing views on modifications) was already clearly reached in the discussion above. -- Jleon 15:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
In a series of edits, and without much discussion, we have eliminated most of what used to constitute a Geography and climate section, removed the only non-urban image of the country, and removed even having a link to Geography of the United States. I've only recently gotten involved in this article, which clearly has a lot of active editors. Was this really intentional? On a less active article, I'd tend to just revert something like this. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
"in 2004 the European Union, as the second-largest military force, had a combined total of 1.6 million troops, and a defense budget of €160 billion, with less than 10% of that being spent on R&D." This combines a good point with a misleading comparison that verges on factual innacuracy. The EU is not a sovereign state, and does not have its own armed forces, independent of its members' governments. Perhaps the perception that it is and does should feature elsewhere in the article, as an example of US citizens' sketchy knowledge of the rest of the world :). Member governments can and do make their own decisions on foreign policy, miltary spending and the exercise of armed force. The Republic of Ireland, Sweden, Finland and Austria have policies of military neutrality, while Britain and France have considerable force projection capabilities. Afganistan and Iraq are recent examples of wide divergence of policy and action. There is a 'European Rapid Reaction Force', but it is based on inter-state cooperation, like NATO (except that it is limited to to peacekeeping and humanitarian operations). Perhaps it would be better to compare US miltary force and expenditure with the sum totals of all the other members of NATO?
-- Countersubject 14:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Discussion about the minimum wage and taxes assertions that are being reverted:
"The United States's minimum wage is among the lowest in the industrialized world relative to similar per capita economies. Beginning in the latter part of the 20th century this led to a "living wage" movement; this has met success primarily in urban centers, along with a minority of states that have passed legislation increasing wages. When adjusted for inflation median wages in some states have decreased since 1979." Probably considers "% of GDP per capita" from Minimum Wage. This paragraph looks non-POV. The rest is garbage, I agree Cdcon 22:00, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The "social inequality" bit reeks of POV. At the very least, that term needs to be carefully defined; these numbers need to be attributed to the study they came from. The Economist external link is subscriber-only, BTW. android 79 21:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm just trying to stop people from deleting the entire paragraph, as the section in itself is not POV. Social Inequality is a legitimate term. If it said "inequality" or "too many poor people" I would agree with you! Perhaps adding the hard statistics into the article would solve the problem? If there is consensus I could add details outlining American child poverty, social inequality, disenfranchised minorities, and comparisons to other industrialised nations?-- sansvoix 21:39, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Since the U.S. competes with economies like China's and India's, and Europe is mired in protectionism, I really don't see how it's relevant to restrict our minimum wage comparison to "similar per capita economies". Rhobite 21:55, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
What you really mean is that the most of the rest of the world pays an adequate (barely adequate) minimum income, and people get free or subsidised health care. The US pays a minimum income that condemns the poor to persistent poverty, and then fails to provide for their health care of those it pays a low minimum income to. Hence that is why so many US citizens in poverty have no health care. In most civilised states a government following that policy would be booted out of power. Not so in the US where both political parties are in bed with the employers and funded by them, so it is a case of screw the poor and protect the rich. Land of the Free, my arse. Land of the Free, if you are rich and can pay, more like. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 07:41, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Putting them here as to avoid an edit war. They were removed from the bottom of the Economy section.-- sansvoix 21:49, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
The United States's minimum wage of $5.15 per hour is among the lowest in the industrialized world relative to similar per capita economies. Beginning in the latter part of the 20th century this led to a "living wage" movement; this has met success primarily in urban centers, along with a minority of states that have passed legislation increasing wages. When adjusted for inflation median wages in some states have decreased since 1979.
This pared with tax structures found in some areas, such as Utah, where the poor pay more of their income as a total percentage on taxes, i.e. those making below $16,000 annually pay 11.4% of their income on taxes while those earning at least $280,000 pay 5.5% (because citizens reach the top tax bracket at $4,313 for a single person), has led to growing number of poor and a wider gap between the rich. Tax systems constructed along these lines have been called " regressive". [3] [4] Nationally, as of 2005, the top federal tax bracket for a single person is 35% and reached at an income of $326,451 (until the Presidential adminstration of Ronald Reagan in the 1980s the top tax bracket was 70%). [5] When compared to other countries, especially in Europe, America's economy has a high level of social inequality. [6] [7]
To easier keep track of proposals for major edits, this is the summary of ongoing debates. it is the quality of an argument that counts, not the number of arguments.
-- sansvoix 22:22, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
See United_States#Largest_cities Discuss at Talk:United_States#largest_cities Vote (non-binding poll) at Talk:United_States#Opinion_Poll
FOR Removal
Neutral
AGAINST Removal
What is the point of this section? It is on the same topic as another section above ("Largest Cities"), and is separated from it by other discussions. It is a duplication of the Opinion Poll. It contains unsigned comments, all of the "For Removal" are from the same editor ( Sansvoix), but since they are unsigned, it looks like there are a lot of folks putting comments in that section. I moved this section to its logical location under Largest Cities, and signed all the unsigned posts, but my edit was reverted by Sansvoix. Now, if a user wants to restate or summarize things already discussed, that's fine, but talk posts need to be signed. -- JW1805 (Talk) 04:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I made this section so people can read and add points without having to drudge through things such as personal attacks and anti-social behaviour. I didn't sign the ones I added, because many of them were originally not my points (I copied them from discussion), furthermore, the signatures are messy and uneccesary when restating simple points. It's the facts that matter, not the user who summerised them-- sansvoix 04:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
-- A strong consensus against removal was already reached in Talk:United_States#largest_cities, so both the so-called opinion poll and the list of debating points are irrelevant. Its seems to me that Sansvoix is just trying to continually repackage this until he gets his way, and once again he is accusing someone of being rude/insulting (just like he did to me) simply because they disagree with him. -- Jleon 15:37, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I used Jeff Madrick, from "Inequality and Democracy" in George Packer "The Fight is for democracy" for the figures he cited the census, business week, and forbes. I also added a bit from Alan Greenspan. The fact that Alan Greenspan considers it a threat to the USA's survival and we didn't even address income inequality here illustrates that we need something on it. 70.57.93.147 19:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Questions and comments on new additions:
-- JW1805 (Talk) 20:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
One of the copmlaints when this article was up for featured status was that several of the templates used in this article have the look of footers. This is still the case. e.g. Template:United States and Template:United States topics, in particular. It's a jarring effect, because they appear to be the end of the article, but aren't. I've tried dropping the footer style entirely. The result can be seen at User:Dpark/Sandbox/United States. Since we don't really want direct text insertion because it makes maintenance more difficult, I would say we could partition the information out into separate templates (e.g. Template:United States 2) which both this article and the original template could then use. No duplication that way, but we don't need to keep the footer style. All this is assuming others like the change, of course.
Compare United States#Political_divisions vs. User:Dpark/Sandbox/United States#Political_divisions and United States#Related_topics vs. User:Dpark/Sandbox/United States#Related_topics. And of course, try looking at the whole article, scrolling through it, to see if it's more visually appealing.
Unfortunately, I don't know of a way to make the talk page have a white background, so you'll have to excuse the blue.
So, what does everyone think? -- Dpark 23:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
That was me who made the previous edit (forgot to sign in). washington D.C. was originally land from both Virginia & Maryland. The Virginia portion was given back (now Arlington County?, Va). Can't believe such a glaring error would be in such a big article. Jcam 00:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Insert: 'the idiot-nation of planetary destruction' as one of the synonyms for "United States". Yama Thi Khuu 19:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)Yama Thi Khuu
I included this because it was where I got the information about the number of military bases. I thought that including references was encouraged. Perhaps I'm including it in the wrong place, or maybe references aren't as important for a general article like this one. I wouldn't mind having some clarification on this, as I'm new to this whole editing business. -- Aislar
Could I encourage everyone to go through and edit out all of the unnecessary uses of U.S. and America. It is understood that the article is about the United States so the terms do not have to start and end every sentence. Just my opinion but it does make it tough to read at times.-- Looper5920 08:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Article is MISSING, deleted by one of many anti-american admins here, no doubt-- Diatrobica;l 22:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
ROFLOL!!!!. I tried to undelete, but I think everyone els eis trying too, so the system throws errors... WRT Antiamerikanism, I think it was simply a co-incidence if one reviews the logs things seem to be rather harmless.
Refdoc 22:54, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I didn't see any record of the deletion. Very interesting... — TheKMan talk 23:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Some vandal moved the page to a new name with a really offensive title. Someone else saw a new page with a really offensive title and shot from the hip rather than having a look inside the page. At least this is how I understand the logs. Refdoc 07:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry to state the obvious, but why is this article at "United States" and not at the official United States of America? Sure, the USA are the US, but as evidenced by United States (disambiguation), there are all sorts of other United States, so why not keep the article at the official name? dab (ᛏ) 23:33, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
This article uses the religioustolerance.org website as either a reference or a link. Please see the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org as to whether Wikipedia should cite the religioustolerance.org website, jguk 14:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Most pages in the Wikipedia namespace are discussion pages, with some Wikifun pages, community pages, and loads of proposal pages. Very few are actually policy - if you want to know which are look at Category:Wikipedia policies and guidelines. It's right to say that Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org is a discussion page for a proposed guideline and is not a current Wikipedia policy, jguk 00:06, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
For those of you that would like to write a short summary about American-Canadian culture, please contribute to the new article stub.-- Culturesoftheworld 19:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
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