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I shuffled around the Clergy section to make it more organized. I shifted piece on Women's Ordination to the history part of the section and made the history and Women's ordination titles smaller. Then I ordred the clergy offices in descending order, and I have no qualms with switching the order but this seems reasonable. I then divided and rewrote the sections on Deacons and Elders since they were full of irrelevant information and many grammatical errors. No citation is added until we get the new Book of Discipline, although all material is fromt the 2008 version.
I think the section is now cleaner and more organized. If you have any issues with my changes, please let me know.-- Revmqo ( talk) 03:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I am removing the photo again. Please review WP policies on photos before you reinsert the photo. And put forth an argument for why it should be included on the talk page. Quite simply, based on your history as noted above regarding Glendale UMC, it appears that you are inserting the photo because it is your POV. If you want to put a photo relevant to the ordination of women, then how about a photo of Maud Jensen or someone relevant to the issue at hand. Revmqo ( talk) 20:11, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
First, I am not an experienced contributor to Wikipedia so pardon any lack of convention on my part. I find the first sentence, describing the UMC as "both mainline Protestant and Evangelical" is both contradictory and confusing. The article on Mainline Protestant contrasts Mainline Protestant with evangelical, fundamentalist, and/or charismatic Protestant denominations, so it is difficult to understand how they can be both. I do not, by the way, have any disagreement with these divisions as provided in the Mainline Protestant article. In general, the term "evangelical" (either with a capitalized or not) is confusing. As a statement of the history and foundations of the UMC, it is indisputably Evangelical in the historical context. However, in the contexts by which the term more often heard today -- usually sociopolitical or theological rather than historical -- the term does not resonate as an accurate description of United Methodists in general. Even the article on Evangelicalism suffers this confusion as some references lump Methodists in, or out of, their definition of Evangelical. Research from the Pew Center shows a discontinuity, with their Center for the Study of Global Christianity, in this paper http://www.pewforum.org/files/2011/12/Christianity-fullreport-web.pdf counting "as evangelical all members of denominations that belong to a national, regional or global evangelical council" (clearly United Methodists do participate) along with the centrality of the "born again" experience (clearly not a universal theme in United Methodism today) while other Pew Center research such as this paper http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report2-religious-landscape-study-full.pdf delineate Methodists, as a Mainline Protestant church, distinctly apart from Evangelical Protestant churches. One could say that my original argument is with the Evangelicalism article because the it does not sufficiently help the ambiguity of the term. At any rate, I do not think the term, without clarification of the specific meaning intended, does not provide an accurate description of the United Methodist Church, and propose that it simply be changed to ..."mainline Protestant." (period) Mrjlal ( talk) 03:25, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
The section on social issues, discussing issues from abortion to human sexuality, should reflect the official views within the denomination. On some issues, there is clear division and, therefore, the content should provide space for the positions of multiple parties involved in denominational action. Additionally, subjective language, such as using terms like 'transgenderism', not used or accepted by the trans* community itself, should be avoided in my opinion. SeminarianJohn ( talk) 08:22, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
In particular, one or more editors are only providing sources related to conservative perspectives on human sexuality when a plurality of views are officially present and reflected on a national, judicial, conference, and congregational level. Different perspectives should be offered. SeminarianJohn ( talk) 08:28, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for the feedback and for helping. As a newer editor, I do appreciate the assistance and discussion to look for the most accurate information. The article on the bishop could go and, maybe if you and others think it could matter, a sentence could be given to the few examples of other events that can be held in UMC congregations although marriages cannot be performed at this time? What do you think? Again, thank you for being understanding and helping a newer user! Your patience is well received here. SeminarianJohn ( talk) 08:54, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
You are right that it is not for news. I think I can both can see your point and agree with much of it. However, there seem to be a lot of 'news' examples of individual ministers who were defrocked for performing same-sex marriages back in 1987. Certainly, those isolated and spurious examples of going as far as to defrock someone do not amount to the same level as the national and regional conferences making decisions. I think the removal of those old references, if isolated examples of churches that do offer alternatives cannot be included, should at least be considered. It just seems one-sided for the page to give individual examples of ministers punished but not of the individual examples of churches that support it. Also, I think the 15 Conferences that voted for resolutions asking to allow gay marriages should be considered for inclusion as UMC.org highlighted it twice. [1] [2] SeminarianJohn ( talk) 09:22, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I will although the sources contain a lot of quotes from each conference. Also, the Rev. Frank Schaeefer was re-instated by the judicial system [3] and I think, then, since we're including people who have been defrocked we should include pastors who performed gay marriages who have been kept as ordained ministers. So, that I think is quite necessary if other individual examples of defrocking are being shown then examples of re-instatement by the judicial system should be shown too. Here is one example of the many quotes that state with clarity the outcome of those 15 conferences voting to support gay marriage. "United Methodists from Washington and the northern panhandle of Idaho approved legislation supporting the Marriage Equality Act" and "California-Pacific, California-Nevada, Rocky Mountain, Desert Southwest and Oregon-Idaho conferences recommitted to their "We Will Not Be Silent" resolution made by the Western Jurisdiction in 2000 and updated in 2004". So, the whole Western Jurisdiction jointly made that support in an official resolution in their book of resolutions updated twice. As for the reference to Buzzed, I do not think I used it, or if I did I probably meant to use another source, but it was filmed and reported by DailyMail, Huffingtonpost, Metro UK, and others. Now, I do not think it needs to be included but I think something should be included about the more than 761 congregations that have officially and publicly affirmed gay marriage in some way. I added the decision from the Judicial Council to re-instate Rev. Schaefer, but of course help phrase it in a way to better fit the style of the page if that is necessary. The JC also made a ruling against mandatory penalties against clergy. [4] SeminarianJohn ( talk) 22:31, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
I think to say 'negligible' is subjective and those are only those that have officially registered as affirming congregations. It does not include the congregations whose delegates voted for those conferences. I think, as you said, including Rev. Schaefer and the mandatory penalties rejection is good and I agree that as long as at least two from each side are shown, that should be okay. On congregations, 32,000 of those 44,000 are in the United States and 60% of US United Methodists support gay marriage. [5] I would not include that reference, as it is of lay opinions, but I just wanted to provide that here. Thanks for the back and forth feedback. I think both of our research has made the sub-section more succinct and as accurate as possible. I will agree now that the article is okay as is for now. Should you also agree that we can include both RMN and "GoodNews/Confessing Movement" numbers, I would be supportive of acknowledging the number of congregations/communities affiliated with each. But, I will agree that the section is okay as is. SeminarianJohn ( talk) 00:31, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
I found a UMC.org source, per your suggestion, during my research on the topic, although it took some time and reading!, that describes what pastors can and cannot do. It states that pastors "cannot preside over the wedding ceremony" which includes any part of the vows, rings, or document portion, but "clergy can assist same-gender couples in finding other venues for their weddings; provide pre-marital counseling; attend the ceremony; read Scripture, pray or offer a homily". [6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeminarianJohn ( talk • contribs) 09:13, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
References
These edits added about abortion policy. Then an i.p. editor made a small change and reverted themself, as if to hide the abortion-related edit from being apparent on watchlists. I have no opinion about the abortion policy edit myself, but think more eyeballs should be reviewing this. -- do ncr am —Preceding undated comment added 20:11, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to request to regular editors of this article to consider a new section or subsection that discusses the titles used to describe a Methodist in the hierarchy of the church. I came to this article because I saw someone mentioned in an obituary presiding over a Methodist funeral service as "Rev. [name]" yet as I write this the word Reverend" doesn't even appear in the article! Here is a good research article I found to help you compose the new material: What is the proper way to address a Methodist minister?. Thanks. Please mark this "Done" when and if accomplished. 5Q5 ( talk) 12:10, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I have deleted the following sentence:
The founder of the Methodist Church, the Rev. John Wesley recognized none as Methodists who did not recognize the named Standards of Doctrine.
The current UMC Standards of Doctrine are from the 1968 merger. It is thus impossible that Wesley insisted that Methodists follow them. The only 'standards' Wesley would have recognised were the Articles of Religion and the Book of Common Prayer as revised for American use in 1784. It is dubious he would have insisted that Methodists adhere to his collected sermons. It must be noted that Wesley remained an Anglican priest his whole life and deemed Methodism a movement within the Church of England, even though this was not the end result in the USA or Great Britain. -- IACOBVS ( talk) 12:45, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
It would be very helpful if someone could build a table showing yearly membership totals over the past several decades, similar to those in the articles on the Presbyterian Church and its sub-denominations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Sanity Inspector ( talk • contribs) 19:54, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
http://www.gcfa.org/media/1614/2017-annual-conference-membership-and-attendance-us.pdf
Maybe sombody can change it. I don't wan't to mess it up. Shai-Huludim ( talk) 16:20, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
There been several articles for a while (a year to couple months ago) about a possible schism by its Liberal/left-wing and Moderate members, with over the "Traditional plan" was approved of adopting against Same-Sex marriage. Chad The Goatman ( talk) 19:56, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
Yes, yes, I know, but there's text in source material which the church has been using for years which serves as a sound basis for argument against a schism, and the United Methodist Church has done such a good job of sticking together despite a wide range of differences of opinion on a number of subjects that it's silly for the church to be splitting over this now and silly to buy into the idea. Besides, it's supposedly not even set in stone yet. Tyrekecorrea ( talk) 20:10, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I've heard a bit about that, but I've also heard of a number of United Methodist churches which exhibit Evangelical behaviors and profess an Evangelical stance on baptism, but still operate under the United Methodist banner. You think maybe they were just messing around with the idea of the church sticking together? It seems to me like if you have an identity crisis, you better not yield your ground until you figure out what exactly you are. 216.255.101.58 ( talk) 02:29, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Every news article that is released in the media with respect to the United Methodist Church's stance on homosexuality should not enter this article. The section, before I trimmed some unnecessary and undue information was 23,878 characters! The section about "Homosexuality" should summarize the UMC's official stance on the issue rather than be a comprehensive list of everyone who dissents from it. There is already an article about Homosexuality and Methodism, in which more information can be added. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam Talk 20:27, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
What are you doing? The hard line your taking isn't helping social relations at all. The church as a whole is supposed to be about people doing their best to get along in their worship of Christ. Too much focus on differences resulting from one aspect of a minority of the population is going to further inspire division, rather than present things as they are. To that end, it's not really an accurate representation of matters to throw out articles in favor of inclusion just because things appear to be heading in a certain direction. If this was the subject of an impartial hearing, those arguments in favor of inclusion would find this unfair, as only one side of the story is represented, and since the article is supposed to be neutral, both possibilities for the future need to be represented, especially as the matter isn't settled yet and there's a strong case against the split. Tyrekecorrea ( talk) 20:42, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
User:Tyrekecorrea, you have changed the title of the section under the "Social Issues" from 'Homosexuality' to 'LGBT people', despite the fact that the main article is titled Homosexuality and Methodism. Could you explain why you have done this when the United Methodist Church's Book of Discipline makes reference to 'homosexuality' and does not mention 'LGBT people'? Specifically, it states:
¶ 304.3: The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church.
Please kindly self-revert. I also wish to hear User:StAnselm's input as he the original title restored on the main article. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam Talk 04:47, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Agreement is being brokered for a vote in May over a new conservative Methodist spin-off that would not be open and affirming of LGBTQ+ marriage/ordination. Suggesting an addition to the page referencing: https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/01/03/united-methodist-church-is-expected-split-over-gay-marriage-disagreement-fracturing-nations-third-largest-denomination/— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.68.149.229 ( talk) 16:45, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
the sentence "He knew that for two centuries the succession of bishops in the Church of Alexandria was preserved through ordination by presbyters alone" is exactly taken from the immediately previous reference, and might as well be put in quotations. This would also address the tendentious nature of the indirect claim - that in fact what he 'knew' is true and generally accepted as true. "He knew that vaccinations killed people" would be obvious as a bad sentence to have in Wikipedia.-- 2607:FEA8:D5DF:F945:8135:8E64:C05B:63FC ( talk) 02:43, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
The phrase "church leaders proposed ...", when used without further qualifications or specifications, is always taken to mean "all of the church's leaders, either unanimously or by a majority vote on the question, agreed to propose ..."
Was that actually the way it happened? Or should the sentence be modified to say "some of the church's leaders proposed ..." ? TooManyFingers ( talk) 00:11, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Name the four pillars. 41.57.95.228 ( talk) 14:26, 5 April 2022 (UTC)