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There was an album of the entire movie also released. One of the small records 2601:584:101:B0D0:7DFD:7FBA:C800:553B ( talk) 02:09, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
Hi all, I'm wondering whether this sentence can be removed from the article: "[Empire] is included in the 2003 film reference book 1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die."
I removed it, but my edit was reverted. My argument is that, compared to all the other high rankings Empire has received, being one of the 1001 best movies of all time seems insignificant. The editor who reverted my edit ( Darkwarriorblake) pointed out that this book was compiled by a total of 70 critics, and not just by one author, as I had assumed. Even then, I'm unsure why Empire's inclusion in such a book is meaningful, especially since the book is more than 20 years old. What Wikipedia readers are going to find this information useful? Wafflewombat ( talk) 22:59, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- The book receives a new edition pretty much every year, the edition cited here is from 2013 so it is not 20 years old. Additionally, a work by 70 critics mentioning the film is not something to be dismissed. I'm unsure why if we have the acclaim we wouldn't want to mention it. Or what harm those 15 words do?
Darkwarriorblake (
talk) 23:21, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- If we mentioned every bit of praise this film has ever received, the article would be way too long. Just because acclaim exists, doesn't mean we have to include it. Since it's a featured article, I feel we should have very high standards, and every sentence should be important and necessary. My feeling is that this information is neither, but if you disagree I respect that. Just wanted to share where I'm coming from, since you asked.
- Although the citation came from 2013, the text in the article said it was a 2003 reference book, so that's why I said it was 20 years old. I fixed the 2003 typo. I should have checked the citation date, though, before bringing it up for discussion! Wafflewombat ( talk) 17:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Wafflewombat. 1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die is not considered a prestige list among film buffs. This is especially true of the newer entries that have been added (and often removed again) in updated editions. I'm not entirely sure as I might be misremembering, but I don't think it's a consensus list that the contributors have collectively agreed on, but rather a list where many different people have written the essays for the individual entries. At any rate, the list's standing in the field is dubious – it's considered a "fun" list rather than a "serious" one, for lack of better words. It's also not a "best of" list but a "must-see" list, as the title implies. It might be worth mentioning for comparatively obscure works like Storm over Asia, Méditerranée, and Deseret, but for films with wide recognition like this one mentioning it on the article is mostly dilution of more worthwhile content. TompaDompa ( talk) 09:07, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- If you could take a week off from undermining one of the articles I've worked on based on your broad interpretations of legitimacy Tompa I'd really appreciate it. 1001 movies is compiled by 70+ professional critics, it's as legitimate as anything else, it's as legitimate as Metacritic, Rotten Tomatoes, etc, your personal opinion not withstanding. Also "is not considered a prestige list among film buffs" needs a citation, ideally from Sight & Sound, and it needs to explicitly say these words for it to be verifiable, it cannot be synthesis from multiple sources, thanks bud.
Darkwarriorblake (
talk) 09:12, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- ( edit conflict) I came here because I was asked on my user talk page about a different part of the article and happened to see this talk page section. It's nothing personal. On the topic of the 1001 Movies list I'm not disputing its legitimacy, but rather its relative importance in the field—which is generally recognized to be low. The list is popular to be sure, but not highly respected. Again, fun rather than serious. I personally rather like it. TompaDompa ( talk) 09:20, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- I know you're being facetious about needing outside sources to ascertain the standing of 1001 Movies within the field and thus its quality as a source to be used here, but if it were necessary you would obviously have it backwards—we would need to demonstrate that it is considered prestigious and/or highly respected, not that it isn't.
TompaDompa (
talk) 09:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Just giving you a slightly annoying task you can never fulfil, that's all.
Darkwarriorblake (
talk) 09:40, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- For the benefit of other people visiting this talk page: I gather this is about our disagreements at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Seven (1995 film)/archive1. TompaDompa ( talk) 09:48, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
- Just giving you a slightly annoying task you can never fulfil, that's all.
Darkwarriorblake (
talk) 09:40, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
There's a portion of the Casting section which could use some work:
"Alec Guinness could not return as Obi-Wan because his failing eyesight required him to avoid bright lights.[56] Recasting him was considered but, determined to recruit him, Lucas agreed to a deal in late August 1979, just before filming finished. Guinness was paid 0.25% of Empire's box office gross for his few hours of work.[94]"
It's a strange segment, because first we are told that Guinness cannot return period, but then a deal is struck that allows to return in a small way. We know from the film that he returns as a force ghost, but it appears that Lucas wanted him to return in a bigger way. It would be nice to have that information: how did Lucas originally envision Guinness's participation in the film? Also, the segment sort of implies that Guinness made the decision to return because Lucas paid him enough, but it's not 100% clear if that's the case. I don't have access to the Rinzler text, so I can't do additional research to see if there is more information about this. Maybe someone who has access to the book can do it? Wafflewombat ( talk) 08:23, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Page 34: "During the making of Star Wars, George and Gary asked me if I would reappear in a sequel," says Alec Guinness. "I told them, 'Yes, absolutely.' I was quite emphatic about it-but I've developed wretched eye trouble. It's threatening to blind my left eye. Specialists told me that under no circumstances must I go into bright light. So I've sort of withdrawn, feeling I had no option."
- Page 210: One item still not resolved per the bog planet was whether it would feature the ghost of Obi-Wan or not. "It's up in the air at this particular point in time," Lucas says. "We're not quite sure what Alec's situation is in terms of his health, but we're hoping that he'll do the picture. We could find somebody who could do his voice with makeup. Ben Kenobi can still be there without Alec Guinness, it's just that we prefer the real thing."
- PAge 236: On Friday, August 24, Sir Alec Guinness confirmed that he would reprise his role as Ben Kenobi... "I spent last evening with him," says Lucas. "He told me that his doctors say he is getting better every day." "I really need him for just some shots against bluescreen, not on any set," Kershner says... New script pages were issued that shortened his role; some lines were cut and some="Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor"-were given to Yoda...Lucas left that Sunday, having secured Guinness's participation..."
- Page 241: his contract, for one quarter of 1 percent of Empire's gross receipts, is dated September 10...During the rehearsal, Guinness raised a hand to shade his eyes from the harshlight...his important contribution to the film had taken mere hours. Darkwarriorblake ( talk)
This is great, thanks for all the info. I created a new version of that segment. It's longer, but I feel it makes more sense. I'll post it here for you to review:
Alec Guinness had told Lucas he "absolutely" wanted to return as Obi-Wan, but he had developed a health condition (in his words, "wretched eye trouble"), which required him to avoid bright lights. Hoping to avoid recasting him, Lucas met with him in late August 1979, just before filming finished. The two agreed to a deal in which Guinness would only be filmed against a bluescreen, and would have fewer lines than originally planned. Guinness was paid 0.25% of Empire's box office gross for his work, which took "mere hours". Wafflewombat ( talk) 01:40, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Segment is now more clear.
ResolvedDarkwarriorblake (or anyone with the Rinzler text), can you please confirm that the helicopter used in Finse flew to 49,000 feet? Google tells me that helicopters normally don't fly above 25,000 feet, but in some cases can go higher. 40,000 feet is the height airliners travel at, so I'll be surprised if the crew's helicopter went that high. The citation provided about the helicopter is Rinzler 2010, p. 141.
Thanks! Wafflewombat ( talk) 05:05, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
I found a digital copy of the Rinzler text, and discovered that the helicopter flew to 15,000 feet. Typo has been corrected. Wafflewombat ( talk) 10:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
ResolvedA segment that seems (to me) a little unclear. I added bold emphasis to the terms that may need clarifying or changing:
"The Empire Strikes Back debuted at the Dominion Theatre, London, on May 6, 1980, followed by a premiere on May 17 at the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C. This event, which featured the principal cast, was attended by 600 children, including Special Olympians. The film's world premiere took place on May 20 at the Odeon Leicester Square, London. Dubbed "Empire Day", the event included actors in Stormtrooper attire interacting with people across the city."
Rinzler describes the Dominion screening as a "sneak preview," not a "debut." To me, "debut" sounds like it was an official premiere. The Wiki page for premiere defines it as "the debut (first public presentation) of a work." Rinzler describes the Kennedy Center screening alternately as a "preview" and "premiere." Rinzler calls the Odeon screening the "world premiere," and the Getty Images source calls it both a "premiere" and a "royal premiere." Interestingly, the Washington Post source calls the Kennedy Center screening the "world premiere."
If I'm not alone in thinking the terms could be tweaked a bit for clarification, please let me know, and I'll draft a new version of the segment. Wafflewombat ( talk) 04:48, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Hi folks! I'm posting three segments from the article that I feel could be changed or removed, and I'm hoping to get your thoughts.
1. "Hamill insisted on doing as many of his stunts as possible, though the insurers refused to allow him to perform a 15-foot (4.6 m) fall out of a window. He fell from a nine-inch ledge 40 feet (12 m) high but rolled on landing to avoid injury."
If the insurers wouldn't allow him to fall 15 feet, then why did they allow him to fall 40 feet? Or was the 40-foot fall accidental? I feel this should be clarified, but I don't have access to the cited source (Starlog no.40, November 1980). Can someone with access look this up, or tell me where I can find the Starlog issue online, so I can look into it?
Segment is now more clear. Wafflewombat ( talk) 20:24, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Resolved2. "When the crew returned to London, they had only half the planned footage, including background plates for special effects shots that were uneven."
I made the argument that the average reader of this article won't know what background plates are, but another editor disagreed with me. I'm hoping to hear what others think. If we use filmmaking terminology like this, I feel we should either explain it or wikilink it. Unfortunately, there isn't a Wikipedia page for background plates. Explaining what they are would mean devoting more article space to a very minor topic, so my suggestion is that we remove the mention of background plates entirely.
Background plates now explained. Wafflewombat ( talk) 14:28, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Resolved3. "Kershner wanted each character to make a unique entrance in the film. While filming Vader's entrance, the snow troopers preceding Prowse tripped over the polystyrene ice, and the stuntman behind him stood on his cape, breaking it off, causing Prowse to fall onto the snow troopers."
I feel this segment should be removed from the article, but on this there has also been disagreement. My argument is that the segment has no connection to anything else in the article. It's a disconnected anecdote which doesn't provide any valuable information. If the segment was preceded by a sentence telling us that the polystyrene ice caused numerous problems on set, or if it was followed by a sentence telling us that it took two days to repair Vader's cape, which delayed the production, then I would support keeping it in. Another reason to keep it would be if we had information about the unique entrances of other characters, but such information is not in the article. As it is, the anecdote has no context. Thoughts? Wafflewombat ( talk) 04:32, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
I'm listing two more segments I have questions about. Thank you, Darkwarriorblake, for your swift action on two of the previous ones.
4. "The American Film Institute ranked Darth Vader as the third best villain on its 2003 list of the 100 Best Heroes & Villains, after Norman Bates and Hannibal Lecter."
I'm just wondering if this is too outdated, since it's from 20 years ago. Vader would probably still be high on the list today, but that is ultimately speculation and not fact.
5. "Filmmakers such as the Russo brothers, Roland Emmerich, and Kevin Feige cite it as an inspiration in their careers or identify as fans."
This is awkward, because we aren't told which of these filmmakers have been inspired by the film in their careers, and which ones are simply fans. There are probably way, way more filmmakers than just these three who have been inspired by Empire or are fans, so I'm not sure why there should be a list of just these three. Wafflewombat ( talk) 22:14, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
The article's lead says that Empire takes place three years after the events of Star Wars. How do we know this? It's not in the opening crawl. @ Darkwarriorblake, maybe you can answer this question?
Similarly, the page for Return of the Jedi says the plot occurs one year after Empire, but this also is absent from that film's opening crawl. Wafflewombat ( talk) 03:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- It's one of the most commonly known things about the movies. While not directly in the movies, it's all over most official publications and it's always been consistent. For the longest time Star Wars official novels had the timeline and years printed at the beginning of the books. Starwars.com used to have a timeline but it doesn't seem to be there now, but it still heavily references BBY and ABY years throughout its databanks. And here is a reliable source that shows what's been published all over the place in print. Canterbury Tail talk 12:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't honestly know if it's in the film I just used what was already here and I'm probably not gonna watch the whole film to find out, but if necessary it can be easily sourced using Canterbury's link above as it is at
Starship Troopers.
Darkwarriorblake (
talk) 12:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info. Another question: Is it necessary to use citations in a Cast section? I noticed it has been done on the Empire page. My understanding is that films are their own primary sources, so I'm wondering why citations would be needed for information that is in the film (including the credits).
Wafflewombat (
talk) 12:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- For a straight cast to character no, but for descriptions of who their character is the answer would be, sometimes. Canterbury Tail talk 12:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- Film's can be used as the source for plot, in a featured article the cast should be referenced and certainly if you're using descriptions of the characters these should also be sourced. It isn't a general requirement but for Featured Articles it is. You also run into issues, as with this article, where sourcing is very important as with who portrayed the Emperor, because there are reliable sources for it here, but it was repeatedly changed to someone else based on a tweet. The article for that incorrect person still says they portrayed the character but so far no evidence has been found to say that Rinzler's book was incorrect beyond that tweet, per Talk:The_Empire_Strikes_Back/Archive_3#Palpatine_/_the_Emperor. Darkwarriorblake ( talk) 12:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- EDIT: Her article's actually been updated since I last looked to be less definitive. Darkwarriorblake ( talk) 12:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info. Another question: Is it necessary to use citations in a Cast section? I noticed it has been done on the Empire page. My understanding is that films are their own primary sources, so I'm wondering why citations would be needed for information that is in the film (including the credits).
Wafflewombat (
talk) 12:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
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