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Assessment discussion

This article is closer to a stub by length standards on Wikipedia; however, it is well written and referenced so it could be classed a "start" class. It falls short of B class as not useful to all readers. To whit, it does not have any information on physical plant, architecture, natural setting, access. A map and or photo would be very helpful to illustrate some of these elements. Feralfeline 01:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC) reply

Photos have been added. July 29, 2019 Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 21:57, 29 July 2019 (UTC) reply

Files used on this page have been nominated for speedy deletion

Heading simplified ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 07:42, 28 August 2019 (UTC) The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: reply

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:36, 12 July 2019 (UTC) reply

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for speedy deletion Sections merged ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 07:41, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:21, 13 July 2019 (UTC) It is photo on Flickr that Morgan Beard and the winery own. Liza Zimmerman ( talk) ~ reply

Heading changed from "Request edit on 24 July 2019" ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 07:44, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply


I am a journalist and I have been editing and correcting the Duckhorn page. I am being paid to do this, which I disclosed on my page weeks ago. The changes are needed to make the page accurate and all of them are referenced to current articles in respected publications. Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 17:06, 25 July 2019 (UTC) reply

The {{ request edit}} template is not necessary to make the disclosure itself, only for proposed changes to the article. I've added the disclosure to the top of the talk page. Regards,  Spintendo  21:09, 25 July 2019 (UTC) reply


Example request

I'm being paid by Duckhorn Vineyards to edit this article. This is about the following edits: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Duckhorn_Vineyards&diff=909053452&oldid=908910880


Request 1, not specific enough

Heading changed from duplicate "Edits by Liza Zimmerman" ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 07:40, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Request lacks specificity: We can't just reinstate all changes at once, as at very least a part of them clearly lack the neutrality required in an encyclopedia. ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 07:57, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


I am being paid to correct errors on the Duckhorn page . This is about the following edits:

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Duckhorn_Vineyards&diff=909053452&oldid=908910880

I was asked by the winery to correct errors and add important additional information. The page did not list the founder's wife, Margaret, who also founded it with him, nor the wines that they currently produce. It also does not contain current information about employees, key data about who owns the winery or up-to-date pics.

All the original info is listed here (and documented by a variety of sources):

sure; I think they all should be visible here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Duckhorn_Vineyards&oldid=908910880

"Can we please reinstate these changes? Thanks. Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 18:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)" reply

At least some of the proposed changes clearly lack the neutrality we expect in an encyclopedia. See my answer to the section below. ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 07:38, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Request 2, neutrality disputed, partially implemented

Heading added, old heading converted to bold text ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 07:54, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Long request partially implemented and collapsed, see below ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 17:18, 29 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Liza Zimmerman

Greetings. I have made a number of corrections to this page that have been removed. I discussed from the start that I am a journalist being paid by Duckhorn to correct errors.

These are the changes I would like to make:

Duckhorn Vineyards is a winery outside St. Helena, California, which is part of the Duckhorn Wine Company portfolio which consists of eight wineries: Duckhorn Vineyards, Decoy [5], Goldeneye, Migration [6][7], Paraduxx, Canvasback, Calera and Kosta Browne.[8]

See published sources below: 

"Decoy 2014 Cabernet Sauvignon (Sonoma County)". 2017-01-02.
"Migration".
"Wine Review Online - A Quest for Cool-Climate Chardonnay".
"Schiller-wine: The Wines of Duckhorn Vineyards, Napa Valley, US". 2010-04-16.


Dan and Margaret Duckhorn founded Duckhorn Vineyards together in 1976, with the purchase of a 10 acres (4.0 ha) property off of Lodi Lane, in St. Helena.[9] The first vintage of Duckhorn was crafted by founding winemaker Tom Rinaldi,[10] and included 800 cases of Three Palms' Vineyard Merlot and 800 cases of Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon. Duckhorn released its first Sauvignon Blanc in 1982. [11]

Sources: Valley, US". 2010-04-16. 

"Wine Ink: A new flight path — Duckhorn takes a turn".
"Duckhorn's Alex Ryan on navigating a changing Napa Valley wine industry".
"1982 Duckhorn Vineyards Merlot, Napa Valley, USA".

Founder Dan Duckhorn, a Santa Rosa native and Berkeley graduate, toured the Pomerol and Saint-Émilion regions in the Bordeaux region of France in the mid-1970s with Ric Forman,[12] who as winemaker of Sterling Vineyards had introduced vintage-dated Merlot wine to California. He returned to California with his then-wife Margaret to promote a new market for Merlot. They founded Duckhorn Vineyards in 1976.[12]The first vintage of Duckhorn was crafted by founding winemaker Tom Rinaldi and included 800 cases of Three Palms Vineyard Merlot and 800 cases of Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon.[13] Using grapes from Marlee’s Vineyard at Lodi Lane, Duckhorn released its first Sauvignon Blanc in 1982.[14]

Beginning in 1988, Duckhorn purchased seven estate vineyards on Howell Mountain and the valley floor,[15] for a total of 168 acres (68.0 ha) in Napa Valley, and four vineyards totaling 153 acres (61.9 ha) in the Anderson Valley, Mendocino County.[12]

In 1981, Alex Ryan began working at the winery while on summer vacation from high school [10]. After completing the viticulture program at Fresno State in 1988[16], Ryan wwas brought on to work in the cellar, the vineyard and the office.[10] Alex Ryan worked his way up the ranks to President and CEO of Duckhorn Wine Company[17].

Duckhorn wines have also been enjoyed at the White House; President Barack Obama served Duckhorn Napa Valley Sauvignon Blanc and Goldeneye Anderson Valley Pinot Noir at the official inaugural luncheon, in January 2009. [18]

In July, 2007, GI Partners, a private equity firm, purchased a controlling interest in Duckhorn Wine Company and with it Duckhorn's various brands and operations[19] at a valuation believed to exceed $250 million.[12][20] The company was sold to another private equity firm, TSG Consumer Partners, in 2016.[21]

Sources: 

James Laube & Daniel Sogg (July 31, 2007). "New investor takes control of Duckhorn Wine Co". Wine Spectator. Retrieved 2007-07-06.
"Duckhorn Three Palms Merlot Worth The Splurge".
"2015 Duckhorn Napa Valley Sauvignon Blanc (375ml) - SKU".
"Continuing the Tradition". Retrieved 2007-07-06.
"Impact Napa Conference 2014: Alex Ryan, Duckhorn Wine Company". 2014-08-25.
"The story behind Duckhorn's big win".
"Duckhorn, Korbel served at official Obama inaugural lunch". 2009-01-21.
Steve Heimoff (July 2007). "Duckhorn Wine Company sells controlling share". Wine Enthusiast. Retrieved 2007-08-01.
Jon Bonné (2007-08-01). "Napa Valley stunner - famed winery sold". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved 2007-08-01.
Quackenbush, Jeff (April 15, 2019). "Duckhorn Wine CEO: Planning for luxury market after boomers, coping with new Napa County regulations". North Bay Business Journal.

Production Duckhorn Vineyards produces several single-vineyard Merlots and Cabernet Sauvignons, as well as a Sauvignon Blanc. Today, Duckhorn Vineyards is the most-recognized producer of Merlot in Napa Valley. [22] The winery has been focusing on producing classic, full-bodied, food-friendly and age-worthy Napa Valley wines. [23]

Winemaker Renée Ary is Duckhorn’s fourth winemaker in four decades.[24] Her approach to winemaking is one that balances artistry and science with a deep respect for the viticultural side.[25] According to Ary, “My job is to let the vineyards speak and convey the soul of the wine.” [26] She does upwards of 60 individual fermentations of each vintage just to make six Merlots, underlying the variety of the sourced fruit and the complexity of the finished wines. [27] The Napa Valley Chardonnay is 90% barrel fermented, went through just 45% malolactic fermentation, and was aged in 40% new French oak. [28]

Sources: 

"Duckhorn Vineyards and the Unusual Triumph of Merlot in Napa Valley".
"Interview with a Winemaker: Renée Ary, Duckhorn Vineyards". 2015-03-25.
"Women Winemakers of California and Beyond |Renée Ary".
"Duckhorn Vineyards".
"Women of an Influential Nature". 2015-01-21.
"Duckhorn Vineyards and the Unusual Triumph of Merlot in Napa Valley".
"Interview with Renee Ary, Head Winemaker at Duckhorn Vineyards".

Three Palms Vineyard Duckhorn Vineyards has been producing wine from the Three Palms Vineyard since their inaugural vintage, in 1978.[29] California Wine Advisors' Ric Forman of Sterling Vineyards introduced the Duckhorns to the owner of this vineyard, brothers John and Sloan Upton, as Forman was producing a reserve Merlot off the Three Palms Vineyard site. Napa Wine Project [30]. In the late 1800s, San Francisco socialite Lillie Hitchcock Coit, of Coit Tower fame, owned this site and planted the now-famous three palms around her wine country vacation home. [31] In 1967, the Upton brothers purchased the land and began planting vine on it the following year. The Three Palms Vineyard site features rocky, alluvial soils that are covered in volcanic stones. [32][29] Fast forward to 2015, when Duckhorn Vineyards acquired the Three Palms Vineyard from Sloan and John Upton. [33]

Awards Duckhorn was voted the winemaker of the year by the San Francisco Chronicle in 2005. [34] In 2005, the San Francisco Chronicle also proclaimed Dan Duckhorn its winemaker of the year and named four of his wines to its list of the "Top 100 Wines of 2005."[35]

In 2017, the winery received Wine Spectator's Wine of the Year Award in 2017, for their Three Palms' Vineyard Merlot.[36] Dan Duckhorn was named Mr. Merlot by The New York Times.[37]

In 2018, Dan Duckhorn was voted wine executive of the year, by the Wine Enthusiast.[38]

Sources: Vineyards". 

"Duckhorn acquires storied Three Palms Vineyard".
"Launching Bordeaux-Style Wines in the Napa Valley: Sterling Vineyards, Newton Vineyard, and Forman Vineyard".
"Merlot's Quiet Comeback" (PDF).
"Duckhorn Vineyards, United States, California, St Helena | Kazzit US Wineries & International Winery Guide".
"Duckhorn buys Three Palms Vineyard in Napa Valley". 2015-05-13.
"WINEMAKER OF THE YEAR / DUCKHORN TAKES WING / And the winner is... Dan Duckhorn and his winemakers wow our tasters with a flock of great wines". 2005-12-08.
"WINEMAKER OF THE YEAR / DUCKHORN TAKES WING / And the winner is... Dan Duckhorn and his winemakers wow our tasters with a flock of great wines". 2005-12-08.
"Wine No. 1 in Wine Spectator's Top 100 of 2017".
Prial, Frank J. (1998-05-20). "Wine Talk; when in Doubt, They Just Say Merlot". The New York Times.
"Wine Industry Awards: Alex Ryan, Duckhorn Wine Co". 2017-12-04.

All of the sources are respected publications and authors. Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 18:12, 21 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Hi Liza Zimmerman, thank you very much for the request.
Sadly, in this unmodified form that was correctly already reverted from the article, the request can not be fully implemented. This is due to a clear lack of the neutrality we expect in an encyclopedia.
Unacceptably promotional examples:
  • Her approach to winemaking is one that balances artistry and science with a deep respect for the viticultural side.
  • According to Ary, “My job is to let the vineyards speak and convey the soul of the wine.”
  • (…), underlying the variety of the sourced fruit and the complexity of the finished wines.
These three sentences can never be added to a neutral article without compromising its neutrality so strongly that not even the best references could fix the issue. These three sentences will never be added to the article; please do not request these specific changes to be made again.
I do not yet have a comment on the (larger, more neutral) rest of the request. ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 08:06, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply
Liza Zimmerman, some of the proposed changes seem to have been implemented by Justlettersandnumbers in Special:Diff/913044703/912805375. The request above seems to be relatively unstructured and is basically a copy of all changes you had made before the last revert. Inevitably, it contains problems such as the three sentences pointed out in my previous comment above.
As the article has fundamentally changed in the meantime, I am collapsing the large wall of text to avoid confusion.
If there is still a need for correction of factual errors, or if you would like to propose neutrally worded additions that are verifiable using independent, reliable sources, please request them in a new section. Please do so in a clear, structured way. Examples:

Please add the sentence "The winery was founded in 1234." at the very beginning of the "History" section. Reference: https://example.com

Please remove the sentence "Her approach to winemaking is one that balances artistry and science with a deep respect for the viticultural side." entirely. Reason: Not written from a neutral point of view.

Please replace "The compny produces several singlevineyard" by "The company produces several single-vineyard". Reason: Spelling errors.

Please create a new section with the heading "Etymology" with the content "The winery's name is based on X". References: https://example.com/loremipsum https://example.com/ipsumlorem

If the reason for requesting a change, honestly, is only making the company look better on Wikipedia, then please do not request it.
You will also need to make sure that your proposed additions will not create undue weight towards positive statements. Even if there are many nice, even factual, things to say about a topic, listing them all in an article that contains nothing else than positive statements would still be promotional. The focus must be on improving the encyclopedic article, not improving the company's reputation. Trying to think of "factual" changes for promotional reasons will inevitably lead to a biased result. You are extremely unlikely to request the addition of anything negative to say about the company, so the volunteers reviewing the request will be extremely cautious to maintain neutrality and verifiability. Please consider multiple times (!) whether your proposed additions are honestly meant to benefit the encyclopedia, or the company. Only in the former case, go ahead.
Thank you very much for your time and understanding. ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 17:18, 29 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Photo reinstatement requests

Ticket number from photographer to use photo

Heading converted to subheading; new heading added above it ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 07:51, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

(Redacted)

As far as I can see, the picture ( c:File:Dan Duckhorn.png) has been uploaded to Wikimedia Commons and the permission e-mail has been reviewed and accepted. No further action is required. Regards, decltype ( talk) 17:21, 25 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 16:55, 10 September 2019 (UTC) reply

The picture of Dan Duckhorn, which we have the rights for, was taken down. I had the photog write in specifically to say that we have the rights to it and have posted the ticket number multiple times. Can I put it up again? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liza Zimmerman ( talk • contribs) 16:55, 10 September 2019 (UTC) reply

It has not been deleted, but it was removed for the reasons outlined in this edit. I suggest you read the discussion below as well. Praxidicae ( talk) 17:15, 10 September 2019 (UTC) reply

Picture removal

Heading changed from "Liza Zimmerman's edits" and converted to subheading ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 07:49, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

I put the winery picture on the Duckhorn page and it was taken down? Why? It was approved yesterday and we have the rights to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liza Zimmerman ( talk • contribs) 20:57, 27 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Without including the filename here on the talk page, other editors are prevented from investigating whether the image has been approved or not by OTRS. The COI editor is also asked to remember to sign the end of all posts on talk pages using four tildes. Regards,  Spintendo  01:32, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Liza Zimmerman's edits Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 01:41, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Heading coverted to bold text ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 07:47, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

"{{ request edit}}" Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 01:41, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

I put the winery picture on the Duckhorn page and it was taken down? Why? It was approved yesterday and we have the rights to it. Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 01:41, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply


As far as I can see, the picture (File:Dan Duckhorn.png) has been uploaded to Wikimedia Commons and the permission e-mail has been reviewed and accepted. No further action is required. Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 01:41, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Please advise. Thanks. Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 01:41, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Unfortunately the email queue that deals with these permission emails is backlogged, and it will take some time until the relevant emails will be acted on. Please be patient. Huon ( talk) 02:01, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply
I have removed a request below that was pretty much a duplicate of this one. The answer remains the same. And no, asking daily won't make the volunteers who process the permission emails work any faster. Huon ( talk) 23:29, 28 August 2019 (UTC) reply
 Comment: Apparently, the winery picture on the Duckhorn page ... taken down concerns File:Picture of the Duckhorn Winery.jpg. We are on top of this at OTRS and have explained again to Liza Zimmerman what is required to accept it. As of right now, it has not passed.  JGHowes  talk 00:56, 29 August 2019 (UTC) reply
JGHowes, you may want to take a look at VRTS ticket #  11157910. Huon ( talk) 08:12, 29 August 2019 (UTC) reply
 Done Thanks, Huon, the file is now at Commons as File:Duckhorn Vineyards Estate House.jpg. If only folks would use the assigned OTRS ticket numbers!  JGHowes  talk 13:49, 29 August 2019 (UTC) reply
Yes, indeed, JGHowes! You'd think that a paid editor would at least be able to get that right ... Anyway, I've added the image to the infobox, so perhaps we can nw draw a line under this section. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 17:05, 29 August 2019 (UTC) reply

Addition of Margaret_Duckhorn.png, declined

I don't know how to upload the picture here. Wikipedia won't let me paste it. I will try to upload it to the commons. Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 18:36, 2 September 2019 (UTC) reply

Hi. So can I repost the Dan and Margaret Duckhorn pic that is in the commons? Best, Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 04:13, 2 September 2019 (UTC) reply

@ Liza Zimmerman: I have moved your comment down here, as you put this comment in the wrong place. You removed the talk page headers in your edit. Seriously, don't do that. You have, yet again, put the wrong templates on this request. You have failed to specify which image you are talking about, perhaps unsurprisingly because there is no photo (that I can find) of Dan and Margaret Duckhorn on Commons. There is File:Dan Duckhorn.png but that's already in the article. So which image are you talking about? Supply the URL of the photograph you are talking about, or no-one will be able to help you. The Mirror Cracked ( talk) 04:26, 2 September 2019 (UTC) reply
Liza Zimmerman, once you've identified the image you're talking about, and consensus is reached on this page that it should be added to the article, someone with no conflict of interest will very possibly add it. Or then again, perhaps they will not – nothing, absolutely nothing, compels us to dance to the tune of a paid editor. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 21:08, 2 September 2019 (UTC) reply
Here is the link: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Margaret_Duckhorn.png We have permission to use it:

Wed, Aug 21, 1:33 PM (12 days ago) to me
Hi Liza, The ticket # 201907151000904 is what I was sent. I will forward you the email Wikipedia sent me.
Cheers,
Frank
Frank Deras Photography

Can I put it up on the page? Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 18:41, 2 September 2019 (UTC) reply
A perusal of vineyard articles (as distinct from wineries) shows only two others [a] that show people in addition to the abundance of airy, Conde Nast-type photographs of the various locations (which appear in many vineyard articles) so I'm not sure what benefit this article derives from including the photograph, except that it shows a single row of grapes in the background. But I'd be willing to add it if the COI editor promised to always post their requests at the bottom of the talk page. Then at least I could mark this request as accomplishing something. But I'd like to hear some other opinions on this as well. Regards,  Spintendo  21:57, 2 September 2019 (UTC) reply
 Done The image has been added. Anyone who objects to this may remove it.  Spintendo  01:00, 3 September 2019 (UTC) reply

Notes

  1. ^ In 2 out of 24 Napa vineyard articles viewed, Schramsberg Vineyards and Baldacci Family Vineyards show people related to the vineyards in photographs. Sterling Vineyards also shows a person in one of the images, but that person is not identified. Needless to say, those examples would fall under WP:OSE.
I have removed the image. In my mind, adding a professional, non-historical portrait of a co-founder is not WP:DUE for an article of this size. SamHolt6 ( talk) 00:30, 4 September 2019 (UTC) reply

{{ request edit}} {{ help me}}She is one of the founders of the winery, along with her husband. So she is of major interest for those trying to understand the history of the winery. Can we post this pic? I would be happy to provide other information should you need it. Best, Liza Zimmerman ( talk) 01:30, 8 September 2019 (UTC) reply

Hi Liza Zimmerman. As the discussion seems to be ongoing and the change has been reverted, this seems to be too early for an edit request. Instead, consensus should be obtained here before requesting the change again. I have thus replaced the "request edit" and "help me" templates above. ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 03:43, 8 September 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose the addition of the image. The current version of the article doesn't even mention the co-founder outside the infobox, and even longer versions never explained what significance Margaret Duckhorn had to the company. I don't even see that it's appropriate to mention her among the "key people". Huon ( talk) 11:02, 8 September 2019 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose the addition of non-historical portraits of the winery's co-founders is not WP:DUE for an article of this size, and has doubtful encyclopedic value. Wikipedia is not intended to be used as a means of promoting a subject, and as such the addition of professionally produced photographs of a company's co-founders could be seen as an attempt to make the founders seem more relatable, contrary to WP:NOTADVOCACY, WP:NOTADVERTISING. SamHolt6 ( talk) 13:31, 8 September 2019 (UTC) reply

Per the above messages, I personally recommend not pursuing the specific photo addition request further. Thank you very much for your understanding. ~ ToBeFree ( talk) 14:43, 8 September 2019 (UTC) reply

Clean up of Duckhorn Vineyards

I'd like to undertake a clean-up of the Duckhorn Vineyards article. The entry is has promotional language, to be sure, mentions nothing about the legal actions to protect its name, and has outdated info. There are plenty of reliable sources to use to redo this -- especially the West Coast papers and the more authoritative wine press. Does anyone see a problem with me giving this a try? Sam Perkins ( talk) 04:30, 10 March 2022 (UTC) reply

not at all. I look forward to seeing what you can improve. Star Mississippi 14:49, 10 March 2022 (UTC) reply
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