The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. WP:COMMONNAME ( non-admin closure) SilverLocust ( talk) 02:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Tai chi → ? – Note to admins: please keep this discussion posted for at least few weeks even if there's consensus on a move; last time a number of editors missed the window to participate.

The current title of this page, "Tai chi" is a less common equally common version of Tai Chi, the English-language WP:COMMONNAME for this art. That's the simplest option for a move, but editors have pointed out two issues with that name. First, although "Tai Chi" is based on the Wade-Giles romanization of 太極, it doesn't use correct Wade-Giles conventions (should be "T'ai Chi"). Second, it's imprecise. I'm not an expert, but it seems that T'ai Chi refers to the philosophy that the martial art is based on (太極), not the martial art itself (太極拳).

The two alternative suggestions are T'ai Chi Ch'uan (the correct way of writing 太極拳 in Wade-Giles) and Taijiquan, the way 太極拳 is romanized in pinyin. These are more precise but less common. Taijiquan has the additional advantage of being in pinyin, which is the romanization system considered standard these days. The Google ngram comparing usage over time

I'd be happy with any of these alternatives (Tai Chi, T'ai Chi Ch'uan, or Taijiquan), so long as we keep all of the related pages consistent. My tentative vote is for Taijiquan, because even though it's less common than Tai Chi, it is more precise and uses the modern system of romanization used elsewhere on Wikipedia. SilverStar54 ( talk) 16:53, 13 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting.  CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/ _{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 07:28, 21 June 2023 (UTC) reply

I assume you read through the "Tai Chi without the fist" thread above; and I would like to assume you read through some of the referenced threads in the archive of this page. I still have an inkling that this page could use a better name, but the others convinced me that the project is too arduous. If a decade later, enthusiastic editors want to make a change I would stay abreast and involved. TommyKirchhoff ( talk) 19:06, 13 June 2023 (UTC) reply

I'm happy to help with standardizing references to whatever name editors agree upon. I obviously can't do all of it alone, but I've been working on fixing MOS:CHINA issues for a while now and would add this to my list of things to look for. SilverStar54 ( talk) 20:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC) reply

I've no horse in this race (I just happened to the page randomly and noticed the inconsistencies), but if I had to cast a vote, it would be Tai Chi, just because it's common use. Still, I would like for the article to be added a paragraph summarizing SilverStar54's finds. If the article's title were one of the other terms, I wouldn't know at a glance what it would be talking about; but I would want to learn about those other terms while reading about it. Kumagoro-42 ( talk) 21:03, 13 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• T'ai Chi Ch'uan would fit the full name used in most English-language book titles, and by every place I've seen that teaches it. Tai Chi, the most common "for short" name, as a redirect [→dab; see below], would continue to be a quick way to look the article up. Taijiquan would continue to be mentioned in the lede. –  .Raven   .talk 05:07, 14 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  Links for examples:

• https://www.britannica.com/sports/tai-chi-chuan
• https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tai_chi_chuan
• https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/tai-chi-chuan-0
• http://encyclopedia.uia.org/en/development/11802820
• https://mwc.en-academic.com/117087/t%27ai
• https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/t-ai-chi-ch-uan
• https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/tai-chi-chuan
• https://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/taichichuan   [Random House Dictionary]
• https://books.google.com/books?q=t'ai-chi-ch'uan   [books]
• https://www.google.com/search?q=%2BT'ai-Chi-Ch'uan+school   [schools]

See also the usage of other Wikipedias, like Simple English: Tai chi chuan

 

–  .Raven   .talk 03:18, 22 June 2023 (UTC) reply

And I would amend my above suggestion to instead suggest that Tai Chi, and alternate capitalization Tai chi, should not be simple redirect pages, but rather disambiguation pages re Taijitu (the T'ai Chi or Yin-Yang disc) vs T'ai Chi Ch'uan. –  .Raven   .talk 03:38, 22 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Tai chi is my vote. I think WP:COMMONNAME clearly applies. The term has existed in English long enough that it's become an English word of its own with its own associated spelling, much like marijuana, Delhi, or Japan. Ambiguity isn't a problem because anyone who comes here looking for the philosophical concept will see the hatnote. As for capitalization, I just did an informal literature search, and it seems the lowercase form is the most common in books and scientific journals. That's consistent with how karate and capoeira are lowercase except at the beginnings of sentences. Justin Kunimune ( talk) 14:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  That's a good point that the un-capitalized version would appear as "tai chi" when it isn't at the start of a sentence. Google ngram shows that the sum of "Tai chi" + "tai chi" is equally as popular as "Tai Chi". SilverStar54 ( talk) 16:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  Thanks for that, SilverStar54. I see [ https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Tai+Chi%2CTai+chi%2Btai+chi&year_start=2018&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3 the same but for 2018-2019, "Tai chi" + "tai chi" is ahead of "Tai Chi". Unless it has a very close relationship with a person of that name, "tai chi" is it for me. Facts707 ( talk) 18:29, 14 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Tai chi (tai chi if not at the begining of a sentence or in a title of a book etc.) is my vote. Similar to how karate, kung fu, jujutsu, etc. have evolved to become simple English common terms. T'ai Chi Ch'uan is fine for a formal name but few English-speaking writers will remember those apostrophes correctly. Facts707 ( talk) 18:37, 14 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  Redirects would ensure they don't have to remember the exact full name – but the title should use it. –  .Raven   .talk 03:09, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Tai chi (no move) sentence case for the article title, lowercase in the body when not the beginning of a sentence per MOS:CONCISE, MOS:FIELD and MOS:SPORTCAPS. —⁠ ⁠ BarrelProof ( talk) 18:41, 14 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  Follow-up comment: My comment is primarily about using WP:SENTENCECASE, not about whether to include "ch'uan" or apostrophes, although at the moment I am leaning toward MOS:CONCISEness. —⁠ ⁠ BarrelProof ( talk) 18:09, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Oppose per Justinkunimune - this is now an English word and the details of Chinese romanization are not determining. Walt Yoder ( talk) 23:36, 15 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Relisting comment: Per nomination request. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/ _{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 07:28, 21 June 2023 (UTC) reply

• Oppose, principally per Justin Kunimune. "Tai chi" has come to be an WP:ESTABLISHED English term in its own right, so it's best to use the English WP:COMMONNAME even if it's not the romanization that would normally be preferred. See also WP:NC-CHINA#Romanization for further corroboration. ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 18:53, 21 June 2023 (UTC) reply
• Oppose: The common phrase is tai chi in English. I can see how technically that name is wrong, but it is the present reality and Wikipedia follows reality rather than rights wrongs. There's no need for capitalization as the names of martial arts are not proper nouns and this name is based on a philosophy which is not named based on proper nouns, and the phrase is not overwhelmingly capitalized in sources. After closing, the article should be cleaned up and this and other martial arts' capitalization should be cleaned up on Wikipedia.  SchreiberBike |  ⌨  22:00, 21 June 2023 (UTC) reply
• Strong oppose, possible WP:SNOW close. The common name in English is so obviously "tai chi" that there's not a snowball's chance in hell this page will be moved. O.N.R.  ^(talk) 12:17, 22 June 2023 (UTC) reply
• Oppose (keep at current name) arguments above and I was curious what newspapers.com would show for both total (approximate counts) and when they occurred (afaik it's case insensitive and I'm not going through the number of hits to use this to help determine that). And based on these numbers, I'd need to see a pretty strong argument that tai chi is "wrong" enough somehow to override WP:COMMONNAME: tai chi: 602,832 (this may catch some "t'ai" as well but not many based on a scan) begins rising in the mid-1970s, hitting peak at ~1998, with a small decline since but still substantial); T'ai Chi Ch'uan: 10,241 with large peak at 1974 (probably a book was published or otherwise popularized as that name) since then fairly low but consistent; T'ai Chi: 58,757, which will include all of the previous one and a few false positives from just "t'ai chi"; Taijiquan: 1,617 spiky with peaks at 2007 and 2019. Skynxnex ( talk) 14:20, 22 June 2023 (UTC) reply

  > "I'd need to see a pretty strong argument that tai chi is "wrong" enough..." — That it's ambiguous, and refers also to the Yin-Yang or Tai Chi disc or symbol ( tàijítú as distinct from tàijíquán), is a strong reason Tai chi should be a disambiguation page like Taiji (disambiguation). –  .Raven   .talk 15:55, 22 June 2023 (UTC) reply

It's not really ambiguous, since neither taiji nor taijitu are called "tai chi" in English (they're both spelled with a "j" in English). Justin Kunimune ( talk) 16:34, 22 June 2023 (UTC) reply

> "neither taiji nor taijitu are called 'tai chi' in English"

Not to wall-of-text you, here are three examples:

• https://www.lovetoknow.com/home/design-decor/tai-chi-symbol — e.g. "In addition to the male and female representation, the tai chi also embodies the Ten Thousand Things, which includes the four major compass directions and the four seasons."
• http://www.newcastletaichi.co.uk/yinyang.htm — e.g. "The Chinese symbol called 'tai chi' or the 'supreme ultimate' contains yin and yang. Yin is black and yang is white. Tai chi combines yin and yang to produce a process of dynamic balancing."
• http://defense-arts-center.com/tai-ji-quan-1 — e.g. "Many people interchange the use of Tai Chi and Tai Ji Quan or Tai Chi Ch’uan because it is popularly known as Tai Chi. This often causes confusion. Tai Chi is actually the Yin/Yang Diagram. This symbolizes the two opposing forces of the universe. It can be translated into 'the Grand Ultimate'. / When most Americans hear the words 'Tai Chi', they think of the slow movements of the discipline of Tai Ji Quan or Tai Chi Ch’uan. The 'quan' or ch’uan' means 'using the tai chi (yin/yang) as a martial art' or Tai Chi Boxing."

In light of the last clear distinction, rather than contribute to the (admittedly common) "confusion", shouldn't we also be clear in that same distinction? Not to 'right great wrongs', but rather, merely, not to add to a wrong. –  .Raven   .talk 20:29, 22 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Interesting, I stand corrected on that point. But as Skynxnex says, a hatnote rather than a disambiguation page is still the correct way to handle it as per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Justin Kunimune ( talk) 17:58, 23 June 2023 (UTC) reply

My sense is that in English "tai chi" referring to this article is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and so depending on the number of potential other articles we have it can be handled by hatnotes on this article and/or a new disambiguation page at Tai chi (disambiguation). (Added: It looks like that disambiguation page is at Taiji (disambiguation) already and is mentioned in the hatnote, which seems okay to me?) Skynxnex ( talk) 17:34, 22 June 2023 (UTC) reply

In that case, Tai Chi and Tai chi could redirect to Taiji (disambiguation) and let that help the reader find whichever article best fits what they're searching for... perhaps it might be Tai Chi (band), or Tai Chi (TVB). –  .Raven   .talk 20:35, 22 June 2023 (UTC) reply

> "tai chi: 602,832" -and- "T'ai Chi: 58,757"
How many of those refer to the martial art (aka tàijíquán), and how many of those refer to the Yin-Yang symbol (aka tàijítú)?

References to the symbol don't logically support using that term "primarily" for the martial art.

Also, did your search for "tai chi" (etc.) exclude the sites where the next word was "ch'uan" or "chuan"?

Otherwise, we should propose that "United" is the "primary" and "common" name for "United States of America", because the single word occurs more commonly — even though we'd be counting hits on other topics and even on that nation's full name. –  .Raven   .talk 02:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC) reply

I scanned through close to a hundred results for "tai chi" and then tried adding "yin" or "yang" or "symbol" and the closest I found were articles talking about tai chi (martial art) that also referred to "tai chi symbol" or "symbol for tai chi". So, out of the ~660,000... very few.

I had meant to search for and include all of the distinct spellings terms to try to adjust for the prefix problem (since newspapers.com, at least as far as I know, you can't exclude terms in results) "tai chi ch'uan": 14,493 and "tai chi chuan": 52,056 (with a moderate number of all three punctuation forms in all three results, so probably under 60,000 total including the 10,241 for "t'ai chi ch'uan" from above). Skynxnex ( talk) 02:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC) reply

Okay, I'll take that as good indication of WP:COMMONNAME, thus strong argument for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. In other words, agreeing to:

• Oppose.

–  .Raven   .talk 03:58, 24 June 2023 (UTC) reply