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Reporting errors
Contested source
The writer
Gregory Orfalea is used as a source for what I consider to be questionable claims about the causes of indigene population decline. Readers should note that Orfalea is not a professional historian.
WCCasey (
talk) 04:29, 12 December 2015 (UTC)reply
Can we downscale the claim, or do you think it is totally fringe and has no room in the article whatsoever?--
Ymblanter (
talk) 08:27, 12 December 2015 (UTC)reply
While he's not a professional historian, he's written a book about Juniper Serra that has been credibly received. Not every source is going to provide pleasing info. Considering the other sources provided, Orfalea's info is balanced and is not given
undue weight. His statements about Serra's treatment of indigenous natives stand up when compared to the many purposeful acts of spreading smallpox and mass murder committed against Indians in the mid-West and elsewhere. Orfalea confirms in the article that neophytes under Serra's authority were tracked down and beaten for leaving the mission, a common punishment in that time. He also acknowledges rape and instances of murder. You could add those to the article to give it more balance. —
btphelps(
talk to me) (
what I've done) 10:46, 12 December 2015 (UTC)reply
Agree with most of what you said, but regarding deliberate a
smallpox spreading and mass murder commmited against the mid-West, I do think it is important to keep in mind that those acts were carried out by the Anglo-Americans, and that the MO of the Spanish in the New World was never to be physical genocide. Cultural, yes, but the Spanish absorbed the Indians into their own society and made no distinction once they'd been converted to Catholic "New Spaniards." Regarding tracking down and beating neophytes for leaving the mission: it is well known that this was a commom practice, and having it in the article is justified. Regarding rapes and murders, though: I would say that without reliable primary sources claims of that nature are dubious...
Firejuggler86 (
talk) 01:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Anti-Catholic Fake News
This article's claims, especially ones accusing the friars of kidnapping and mistreating natives, need much better documentation. I went ahead and deleted the more incendiary claims made by the "Indian in the Closet" essay, which does not cite any pertinent scholarship or primary sources. Carey McWilliams was not a scholar, but a socialist journalist. He should not be cited as if he were a historian. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
71.220.225.160 (
talk) 03:06, 23 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Use of "Father" as a priest-title is unacceptable in Wikipedia
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
In Wikipedia, the names of priests should not be preceded by the title Father. Note this guideline concerning use of Father as a title:
Father
Use the Rev. in first reference before the names of Episcopal, Orthodox and Roman Catholic priests. On second reference use only the cleric’s last name. Use Father before a name only in direct quotations.
Use of the term Father or Father-Presidentes in this case is historic. During the time of the Californa Missions existence Father was the proper term. Notice in the section itself individuals are references as The Rev.. I would argue that the first entry is actually wrong because here in California we are taught and we allways say Father Junípero Serra never Reverend Junípero Serra.
I went to the public library and checked the print encyclopedias there. Every one of them has an article about
Junípero Serra. In the following-listed encyclopedias, the Junípero Serra articles do not contain the word "Father":
I submit that the older Catholic encyclopedias use the word "Father" because of their explicit affiliation with Catholicism.
Mksword (
talk) 23:25, 9 September 2015 (UTC)reply
Surprisingly,
WP:SECONDARY sources are preferred by Wikipedia, not tertiary sources such as other encyclopedias. There are plenty of secondary sources that use "Father" when discussing Serra and the California mission system:
Because of this, I don't see any problem with Wikipedia using "Father" to establish somebody's historical title, then using their surname after that.
Binksternet (
talk) 00:25, 10 September 2015 (UTC)reply
The title "Father" connotes that the priest is religiously superior to others who are not accorded that title (notice that a priest directly addressed as "Father" may reply with "Yes, my son"). Further, only the priestly denominations afford that designation; the non-priestly denominations do not. Using exalting titles like "His Eminence" or "Father" for clergy of only a subset of the Christian denominations is inequitable.
Albert Barnes (a theologian and Presbyterian pastor) wrote the following in his notes on Matthew 23:9 : "[T]he word 'father' also denotes authority, eminence, superiority, a right to command, and a claim to particular respect. In this sense it is used here. In this sense it belongs eminently to God, and it is not right to give it to men. Christian brethren are equal." (Source: Notes, Explanatory and Practical, on the Gospels by Albert Barnes, page 260.)
I am not referencing encyclopedias as sources for the content of a Wikipedia article. Rather, I examined the encyclopedias to establish what the standard practice is in religion-neutral encyclopedias. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; it's not a newspaper, TV station, or radio station. Encyclopedias require a higher level of neutrality than what may be acceptable in popular media. The universal practice in religion-neutral encyclopedias is to not use "Father" as a title for priests, except when it occurs in a direct quotation.
He is widely known as "Father Serra". more so than by any other name. SURELY you are not saying that
WP:COMMONNAME must be disregarded in order to be in compliance with obscure church organisational technical points??
Firejuggler86 (
talk) 01:49, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This discussion was moved to
Talk:Junípero Serra a couple of weeks after it was initiated here in 2015. Per
WP:TALKFORK, it ought to have been formally closed here but it wasn't. No one pursued it here anyway until this week but now that I see the situation I'm closing the discussion now.
Largoplazo (
talk) 11:18, 14 July 2020 (UTC)reply