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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Kanagawa Eastern Line → Sōtetsu Shin-Yokohama Line – This article was presumably created by Google translating '神奈川東部方面線', but this does not qualify for
WP:COMMONNAME, not being used by the
construction authorities nor by the press. For its operation this line has been named Sōtetsu Shin-Yokohama Line[1], and that is the name passengers will call it by. Arguably most readers outside Japan will have little interest in what the Shin-Yokohama Line was called during construction, the name that will be used during its servicing is more appreciated.
Hms1103 (
talk) 20:47, 16 March 2019 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this
talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 26 December 2022
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Capitalization
On 23 March 2023, this article was moved to "Sōtetsu Shin-yokohama Line" with a lowercase "y" with the rationale "officially Tokyu and Sotetsu decapitalize the letter after hyphen". However, Wikipedia operates on the basis of
WP:COMMONNAME, not "official" names, and using lowercase letters for place names (like Yokohama) is ungrammatical;
MOS:HYPHENCAPS specifically notes that proper names (like "Yokohama") should be capitalized after a hyphen. Unless there are strong objections, I will move this back to the previously agreed name. @
Sameboat FYI.
Jpatokal (
talk) 06:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Since there were previous move discussions on this page, the move to a lowercase title should not have been treated as uncontroversial. It should have been reversed at the time, but a long period has passed since then, so it might be best to continue with a full move request. There are several other stations and lines in Japan with similar problems, e.g. for Hankyu in Keihanshin:
Kyoto-kawaramachi Station in Kyoto,
Ishibashi handai-mae Station in Osaka, or repeated references to "Osaka-umeda Station" in the
Umeda Station article.
Dekimasuよ! 07:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I don't really think there is a "common spelling" to begin with. The main issue with the hyphen in Japan is that, as with other punctuations, it is not being employed in the conventional English way in most cases. As for proper names with prefixes such as Shin (new), Naka (central), Kita (north), etc., the hyphen is arguably redundant. If you believe the de-capitalized names are wrong and these names should be changed to conform to proper English grammar, I believe the hyphen should go (so the prefix and the root join together) or be replaced with a space. --
Sameboat - 同舟 (
talk ·
contri.) 09:15, 8 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Since there is a distinction between a prefix and a word, the hyphens make sense to me (particularly for "Shin-"; even in Japanese dictionaries this will be listed as 接頭 with the clarification that it always precedes a noun). In English, terms with the pattern "Shin-Yokohama" are much more common formations than either a "Shin Yokohama" or "Shinyokohama" pattern. ("Kita-", etc. are different because they may either be appended or an integral part of the place name; this is rare for "Shin-".)
Dekimasuよ! 10:22, 8 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I am not sure about your logic with connecting a
ja:接頭辞, which literally means "
prefix", with a hyphen. In morden English practice, while not completely dominant, prefix generally doesn't require a hyphen to connect to the stem. It is a different case with "Kyoto-kawaramachi" when none of the components serve as an affix, and both are proper names, despite the ambiguity "Kawaramachi" may raise. --
Sameboat - 同舟 (
talk ·
contri.) 23:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)reply
This is unfortunately a
circular argument. The "cap-after-hyphen" is really employed primarily by JR, and this is clearly not a common practice in Japan, not only are Sotetsu
[3], Tokyu
[4] and Yokohama Municipal Subway
[5][6], whatever government department responsible for road signs in Japan use "Shin-yokohama"
[7] as well. I must come clean that I do not necessarily endorse their practices, but JR, being a non-anglophone Japanese organization, should not be treated as an authoritative entity in terms of English grammar. My second argument is that the hyphen really makes no sense in anglophone locales such as "New York", "New Zealand", "Newfoundland" etc., because like Shin Yokohama, the "New/Shin" part is an inseparable part of the name, adding a hyphen and followed by a capitalized root gives the wrong impression that the "New/Shin" part had been a separate location but was later merged with the second part.
Another less relevant issue is that if we are adhering to Wikipedia naming conventions, all railway line and station articles should have their "line" and "station" part decapitalized as with all United Kingdom railway articles.
It is a very basic rule of English spelling that proper nouns are always capitalized, even after a hyphen, and JR is correctly following this convention. Your analogy is false: "Shin-Osaka" does not mean the city of "New Osaka" as in "New York", it means a new station for Osaka, within Osaka.
Shin-Osaka isn't really a good comparison with Shin-Yokohama, the latter is more than just a new station, but a designated district with its own postal code (
222-0033). My point is, the second parts of "New York" and "New Zealand" predate their "New" counterparts, which is a valid analogy for all the "新" proper names in Japan. I also fail to find any proper name in anglophone countries which uses a hyphen to join "New" with the stem. Hyphenated proper names usually use hyphen to connect proper names with preposition, not adjective, and "New/Shin" is not a preposition but an adjective grammatically in English and Japanese respectively. Anyway, I am largely in favor of replacing the hyphen with a space and keep all the proper names capitalized which would ease all the troubles associated with the hyphen. --
Sameboat - 同舟 (
talk ·
contri.) 12:56, 9 May 2024 (UTC)reply
This MOS does not address the hyphen issue with prefixes like "Shin-", unfortunately. --
Sameboat - 同舟 (
talk ·
contri.) 03:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)reply
MOS:JAPAN explicitly states that standard English/MOS rules of capitalization apply, and
MOS:HYPHENCAPS says proper names after hyphens should be capitalized. So the current "Shin-yokohama" is unambiguously wrong.
You seem to be proposing "Shin Yokohama" as an alternative, but while occasionally seen, this does not seem to be the
WP:COMMONNAME.
Jpatokal (
talk) 04:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Of course, I have been suggesting "Shin Yokohama" all this time. I also have to stress that I am not convinced that "Shin-Yokohama" is a common name. To establish its common name status, you must provide Anglophone sources (i.e., sources not originating from Japan) that indicate a preferred spelling by the majority of English-speaking sources. On the other hand, "Shin-yokohama" appears to be equally common in Japan based on the sources provided by me. And this is the main reason why English Wikipedia did not change the spelling of "Kiev" to "Kiyv," which had been preferred by Ukrainian sources for a very long time. We only made the change when the majority of Anglophone sources switched after the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. --
Sameboat - 同舟 (
talk ·
contri.) 05:30, 11 May 2024 (UTC)reply