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Requested move 12 June 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by a page mover) Omni Flames ( talk) 07:13, 21 June 2016 (UTC) reply


Pulse (nightclub) → Pulse Orlando – the full name used on both the official site is WP:NATDAB eliminating need for parenthesis. This is also not the only nightclub named Pulse, there is one in Oshawa Ontario Canada as well. They may be part of a franchise chain. Ranze ( talk) 23:37, 12 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Works for me. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 00:11, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply
Based on the WaPo article, it appears that the name is just Pulse. Blaylockjam10 ( talk) 20:46, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Support as proposed Red Slash 21:05, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Conditional support if source for full name can be provided. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{ re}} | talk | contribs) 23:57, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose [1] [2] unless/until we get an official statement by the club owner - what I would regard as highly inadequate to bother them now. On their websites they call and called it just "Pulse" most time, only rarely "Pulse Night Club", "Pulse Orlando", "Orlando Gay Nightclub" and other, what can likely be for SEO reasons. (Is the Oshawa Pulse anywhere near relevant?) -- S I 00:53, 14 June 2016 (UTC) reply
I tend to agree that we shouldn't use "Pulse Orlando" as if it were its common name. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 13:31, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Support - A natural disambiguation is normally better than parenthetical one. Also, the proposed title is used by articles, including recent ones, even when the owner might not use the name often. I found last year's article. I also found the 2009 book and a traveler's book, which calls it "Pulse" with "pulseorlando.com". Other sources: 2015, 2006, 2012, 2015 travel guide. Well, 4-3 "Pulse" technically wins. However, per WP:NATURAL, we can use natural disambiguation, even when the name is not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title. George Ho ( talk) 02:35, 15 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Great research above. I would also point out that the famous evacuation message during the shooting by the business' Facebook used "Pulse Orlando" too. Ranze ( talk) 07:52, 15 June 2016 (UTC) reply

  • Support for Pulse (Orlando nightclub) and Comment — There is research below, where it was found out, that there have been two previous shooting incidents in different nightclubs also named Pulse. It's a good thing, that the Pulse Orlando redirect already exists. The current article has a {{ Distinguish2}} tag on it to make sure that the public does not confuse this incident with shooting incidents in those other establishments named Pulse. It seems, that this nightclub's general branding is only Pulse, but the website is PulseOrlando.com, and twitter and facebook handles are also 'pulseorlando'. Would the company name of the establishment give any suggestions? - Mardus / talk 04:07, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
I'd go with that. You might consider starting another section for that move to Pulse (Orlando nightclub). -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 05:14, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
Can I then rename that section? - Mardus / talk 06:05, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
Re "Can I then rename [[#Rename.3F|that section]]?" – You can, but I would suggest instead just starting a new section for the new requested move. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 13:22, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
On second thought, the move to Pulse (Orlando nightclub) may not be appropriate per Wikipedia policy WP:NATURALDIS. See my message below. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 14:04, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
Oppose to that, too. None of the other "Pulse" clubs are anywhere near meeting the notability needed. If anyone had well-sourced proof for another Pulse's notability, then we could see... (please do not discuss other venues/events notability here.) -- S I 06:46, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
It would be helpful in considering your point if you could give a link to a guideline or policy on naming articles, along with the relevant excerpt, that supports point. Thanks. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 13:22, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
I just now looked at the policy WP:NATURALDIS and you may be correct, although the explicit consideration appears to be whether or not a similarly named Wikipedia article exists, which is somewhat equivalent to whether or not there are other similarly named topics that are sufficiently notable. See the Queen example of the first paragraph of WP:NATURALDIS which advises use of "Queen (band)" over "Queen (rock band). I would add to that example that if there was an obscure marching band called "Queen" that specialized in songs related to the monarchy, and it didn't have a Wikipedia article, there wouldn't be just cause for using "Queen (rock band)". -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 14:04, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose Proposed title does not even begin to identify the subject . Outside the US, even at the moment, this is often being referred to as 'Florida nightclub', Orlando being not immediately recognisable to non-US, and 'Pulse' being wholly meaningless. Pulse (Orlando nightclub), might make more sense. Naming is meant to identify the subject, not simply DAB from similar names. Pincrete ( talk) 19:01, 20 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose any move because this is the only notable nightclub with this name. SST flyer 02:42, 21 June 2016 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reference

Could someone who's able to access the News-Press article write the article's actual title in the reference? It wouldn't be good to lose the reference due to link rot. Blaylockjam10 ( talk) 05:21, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply

club name sourced

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/06/13/more-than-just-another-gay-club-pulse-was-founded-in-her-brothers-memory-and-named-for-his-beating-heart/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Computationsaysno ( talk • contribs) 08:41, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply

+ http://www.bustle.com/articles/166312-the-inspiring-story-behind-the-creation-of-pulse-nightclub --- Another Believer ( Talk) 14:30, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply
I've added a bit of info from WaPo, but only from the lead paragraphs. I haven't mined the end paragraphs that reboot talking about the club before the shooting. -- Zanimum ( talk) 15:58, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Previously in the building?

Any way, without getting access to Newspapers.com, to find out what 1912 S. Orange Avenue was before Pulse? Just a random thought. I haven't seen mention whether they built it or renovated it. -- Zanimum ( talk) 16:51, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply

This newspaper from 1936 says that 1912 S. Orange Avenue was home to the Sarasota Herald Company, an daily newspaper published every day except for Saturday. I think it's something we could mention briefly in this article, as there isn't enough about SHC to warrant it's own article. -- Cupoftea155 ( talk) 19:15, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Yes, delete this article ASAP

AFD was speedy snow closed as keep. — xaosflux Talk 04:36, 19 June 2016 (UTC) reply

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I agree this article should be deleted. There is no value in discussing what the club was all about. The article on the June 2016 shooting covers everything of interest. I suppose it could mention a bit about what the club was all about, in a couple of sentences. Peter K Burian ( talk) 22:12, 13 June 2016 (UTC) reply

The AfD is running here: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2016_June_13#Pulse_.28nightclub.29 Thank you, Mootros ( talk) 17:15, 14 June 2016 (UTC) reply
Resolved
--- Another Believer ( Talk) 19:13, 14 June 2016 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"community hub for HIV prevention"

This is a really interesting statement - the source doesn't explain much more, though I see some lines later down I could add something possibly related from. If the HIV prevention program was effective (also some of the other things listed that I'll add) there's a question for which I'd love to see facts that might address it: Has Pulse saved more lives by this work with community organizations than were taken during the shooting? Wnt ( talk) 10:48, 14 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Citation for 2013 shooting

The item about the 2013 shooting was put in by Auric and here's the diff [3] . And here's the citation.

"Article". News-Press. Fort Myers. May 27, 2013. p. B2 – via Newspapers.com. {{ cite news}}: Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) ( help)

It looks like the article title wasn't filled in and there only appears "Article" as the title. Unfortunately the article is behind a paywall. So I tried to get more info on the article at the newspaper's website by searching its archives [4]. I first used the keyword shooting and I didn't find anything about the cited article. Then I did a search using the keyword Pulse without success. So far it looks like the cited article about the 2013 shooting may not exist. Maybe Auric, the editor who contributed the item, could clarify. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 20:11, 14 June 2016 (UTC) reply

You can request that someone from WP:Library obtain a copy. They've privileged access to some News print archives. It is possible this publication is accessible to them. (I tried to get at B2 page but they're protected by randomly generated keys in query string) If it is sourced and not a BLP vio is possible to leave entry intact and tag with {{ vs}} --  dsprc  [talk] 03:25, 15 June 2016 (UTC) reply
There is some text visible in the preview window. It says "The shooter was killed/by other officers. /Since the May 9 shoot-/ing, Pulse Nighclub is no". The url I used to get it is https://www.newspapers.com/search/#query=Pulse+nightclub&dr_year=2004-2016&offset=26&p_place=FL . Unfortunately, it is not part of the WP:Library subscription (which I have) and requires a "Publisher Extra Subscription" which costs "$139.90 /year".-- Auric talk 09:05, 15 June 2016 (UTC) reply
Thanks Auric. I was able to use two key phrases from your article excerpt to successfully google for more info. The search parameters were the following two phrases, including the quotation marks: "The shooter was killed by other officers." "Since the May 9 shooting, Pulse" . Using this I got two hits. One hit was the May 27, 2013 article that is behind a paywall. The other hit appears to be the relevant page of the article and is not behind a firewall. Here's the link for it: http://santinifloral.com/sw-florida-news/ft-myers-and-ft-myers-beach/3625-bar-crowd-downtown-presents-enforcement-challenges-danger-to-fort-myers-officers . As you can see at that link, the shooting did not take place at the Orlando Pulse, but rather outside the now defunct Ft. Myers Pulse. Here's an excerpt.
"Five officers were shot at as they tried to break up a fight. None were injured. It’s not the first time officers have been shot at around closing time in downtown Fort Myers. Officer Andrew Widman was shot and killed in July 2008 trying to break up a domestic dispute after the bars closed.
The shooter was killed by other officers.
Since the May 9 shooting, Pulse Nightclub is no more. Though the incident did not take place inside, the fight that spilled onto Hendry Street was triggered by people standing in front of it."
-- Bob K31416 ( talk) 13:29, 15 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • I came to that same finding. The current snapshot of the original URL at Google Web Cache is able to display the source's OCR version of the text, wherein passages of different articles are on top of one another. The excerpt shown at Google Search also allowed me to find the partial article from Santini Floral, which was already referenced above.
According to that News-Press article from 27 May 2013, the Fort Myers Pulse was renamed to "1527". - Mardus / talk 02:08, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • This is the passage that I've moved from the article to here:
The club was the scene of a shooting in May 2013. [1] verification needed
- Mardus / talk 02:10, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • Sorry, I removed the note before seeing this discussion. I've never seen "distinguish" language for a nonexistent Wikipedia article, though. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 02:30, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • If I had to choose between disambiguation in the form of Pulse Orlando vs. "Not to be confused with the defunct Pulse nightclub in Fort Myers, Florida, outside of which a shooting happened on 9 May 2013;[1] and the Pulse nightclub in New Haven, Connecticut, outside of which a shooting occurred on 14 September 2013.[2]."... I'd pick the former. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 02:47, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
It's rather important to point out both without necessarily linking to them (which is why I used {{ Distinguish2}} instead of plain {{ Distinguish}}), because it would greatly reduce confusion by the public, much of which has happened already. The shooting at Fort Myers has also been used as an argument to keep the year in 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting. I nevertheless support keeping the year there, because it would still differentiate from previous shooting incidents in or near other nightclubs named Pulse. - Mardus / talk 03:00, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • btw, I like Pulse Orlando, as this is the name used by the affected nightclub in its website URL, but not in its general branding. So I think this article is a good candidate for renaming. I'd like to see more substantiated arguments for renaming, but I wouldn't object, if a rename happened. - Mardus / talk 03:06, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
No, the current url is pulseorlandoclub.com, most likely because pulse.com, pulseclub.com, pulsenightclub.com, pulseorlando.com, ... are occupied by others. You cannot seriously judge the name by their web address - then we would need to move it to pulseorlandoclub, PulseOrlando or pulseorlandoclub.com?! PS: the distinguish-templates are only for use if there is another article target in Wikipedia that could be confused, pls see WP:HAT guidelines, thx. -- S I 07:04, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply

( ←) What if we renamed the article Pulse (Orlando nightclub) or something? --  dsprc  [talk] 03:05, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Thanks for finding that out. I'm more used to searching older newspapers, where each article was syndicated, appearing nationwide in a variety of newspapers. And thanks for the link about the Extra Supscription.-- Auric talk 18:20, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply

References

  1. ^ "Article". News-Press. Fort Myers. May 27, 2013. p. B2 – via Newspapers.com. {{ cite news}}: Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) ( help)

Rename?

Per arguments presented near the bottom of #Citation for 2013 shooting. - Mardus / talk 03:10, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Oh, disregard that, there's a move request already. But the arguments at Citation for... should be helpful in deciding. - Mardus / talk 03:40, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Disambiguation from shootings at other Pulses?

The consensus is against including disambiguation for unrelated 2013 shootings in or near other venues named "Pulse" because those unrelated shootings neither have their own articles nor are discussed in other articles. If articles or sections in other articles are written to discuss the unrelated 2013 shootings, then this can be revisited. Cunard ( talk) 04:02, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Because people have actually confused unrelated 2013 shootings in or near other venues named Pulse, I first included a disambiguation hatnote that was removed here, and then included a disambiguation para in a lede, which was also removed, and which I duly reverted. The two 2013 events in other Pulses have been topical elsewhere in this Talk, and have become reason to potentially rename this article.

Therefore, should the article contain disambiguation to shooting events in other venues named Pulse? - Mardus / talk 14:24, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply

  • No. I've never seen disambiguation in the form of a hatnote that did not link to another Wikipedia article. Nor have I seen disambiguation in the form of prose. This article should remain specifically about the Orlando shooting. If there is so much confusion that disambiguation is required, then we need to rename the article. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 14:36, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
[EC] Mardus, you have now reverted Another Believer two times 1 2 in this DAB issue, and this could also be seen as rv of my policy-citing edit. Pls see WP:3RR for not risking a block.
On topic: I also see no reason to include those irrelevant, unrelated topics here. -- S I 14:40, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
I could argue, that Another Believer twice removed what I inserted, and I reverted these removals on two relatively different occasions (i.e. not exactly the same text in the same location). The article about the Orlando shooting is in its own place. I do believe, that there can be and has been enough confusion, since for not a short time, the Fort Myers Pulse shooting was referred to in this article until this edit, as if that 2013 shooting had taken place in Pulse Orlando. I've seen that mistaken knowledge transpire on twitter. Hence my insistence on disambiguation.
Given the headstrong nature of to and fro edits, I thought it more prudent to introduce this RfC. - Mardus / talk 18:57, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
For the record: [5] [6] So we need to keep on confusing the readers, because we have been confusing them for three days - although no media outlet jumped at our hoax...? -- S I 19:14, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
My point with the passages containing disambiguation was, that this current event should not be confused with the two unrelated incidents in 2013. I did not know the two edits you featured. But there are more and more. It appears, that the earliest edit referring to the unrelated shooting was added by User:Auric here, and then persisted for several days without much verification. - Mardus / talk 21:35, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
No worries about the reverts. I'm not bothered and I am glad this RfC was started. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 21:38, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • What Another Believer says. Hatnotes are to link to other articles; the text itself, the lead, should take away any possible confusion. If those articles are written, that's another matter. And adding it to the lead is not helpful either--for now, it's nothing more than a coincidence that those places were also called Pulse. Drmies ( talk) 14:40, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • No. Those other shootings were obscure events and the only effect of mentioning them in this article is to artificially make them more prominent. Also, to mention those shootings in this article is a violation of Wikipedia policy WP:NOR which states in the opening paragraph, "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented." That means that a reliable, published source must relate those shootings to the Orlando shooting before that information can be included in this article. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 15:04, 16 June 2016 (UTC) reply
  • (solicited by feedback bot)No: as there is no article for the other locations - should they get an article, or even a section or worthwhile anchor in an article - then revisit. — xaosflux Talk 04:35, 19 June 2016 (UTC) reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2016

Resolved

The caption of the video of President Obama should read "Puerto Rican" & not "Porto Rican"

Jeremyoreo ( talk) 02:10, 19 June 2016 (UTC) reply

 Done — xaosflux Talk 04:32, 19 June 2016 (UTC) reply

More recent photo of Pulse requested

I've posted a "photo requested" template up there at the top of this talkpage. The present photo is 10 years old, the building now has a completely different appearance. Shearonink ( talk) 20:27, 25 June 2016 (UTC) reply

Memorial

past

The article seems to be past tense. It does indicate that Pulse is closed, but not that it isn't still there, or otherwise renamed. Should it be present tense? Gah4 ( talk) 08:04, 1 June 2017 (UTC) reply

Name change

Surely the name of this article should be Pulse (nightclub), rather than Pulse nightclub? Since it appears that "nightclub" is not part of the name of the venue. The current title looks like incorrect grammar as well. -- Jordan Mitchell Barrett ( talk) 05:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC) reply

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