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Random talk

the history section of this article really, really needs to be cleaned up. It's semi-incoherent atm. phoebe 19:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC) reply

also, most of the introductory text is US & UK-centric; if anyone knows anything about public libraries in the rest of the world and can check that this is accurate (or write about country-specific differences) that would be useful. phoebe 19:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC) reply

Cleaning up weasel words, unreferenced material, and dead links. Plenty more where that came from. ⋱★⋱LieBerries⋱★⋱ ( talk) 22:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC) reply

Why did "Lending Libraries" lead to this page?

When I was reading about Charles Dickens's novels, I found that in the nineteenth century, books were as comparatively expensive for the common populace as VHS tapes of movies were when tapes of feature films were started being offered for sale. At that time, there were few public libraries. Just as "video rental shops" appeared, charging a fee, so too were there lending libraries that you had to pay to rent a book. One of them in Britain was called "Mudie's". And just like the successful video stores in many countries, it became a chain across that country. When a book was rented, the whole family read it so as to save money. And the novels appeared in sets of three volumes, so there was turnover for rentals from these libraries. Sales to such lending libraries were appreciable; they would have several copies of the same book when it came out, of course. These are not public libraries. Sobolewski 00:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC) reply

good question

Such private lending libraries were accidentally omitted, and the page will be written & the links fixed. I'll start with what you just wrote, and then you're very welcome to add more. We also need a page on video rental establishments--they're mentioned in the stub Rental shop.

While at it, I removed the general library material.
In the US, their origin is generally connected with church or parish libraries, not as imitations of univ. libraries. We do not seem to have an article on those earlier libraries, and I am not competent to write it. DGG 05:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC) reply

Links to campaigns supporting public libraries

The links that appeared at the bottom of this page where there when this page was split off from the contents of the original Library entry.

These link were removed in the last few days by a user who has made an accusation that these were soapbox links and that any issues of the continued existence and funding of public libraries was not worth considering as part of this article.

I do not know how this view can possibly be justified. The public campaigns are as much a part of the history of public libraries as any of the details contained in the main article.

The accusation that these links are represent some form of "soapbox" is hard to understand. The links are to both government organisations which set public library policy and to national campaign groups which also provide support and discussion of the issues involved.

I append the definition from the Wikipedia page on the soapbox topic.

I cite the following clause as a justification for keeping the links since they point to both the official government library sites (many of which seek to reduce library services) and to the independent campaigns who seek to maintain and improve library resources.

"Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to approach a neutral point of view."

As both views are included the links should be regarded as neutral and balanced.


87.74.127.222 20:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC) reply

I support the removal of these links as encyclopedic. DGG 03:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC) reply
It will not accomplish anything to have repeated insertions and deletions, so we must find a better solution. current events and the like are suitable for WP, but advocacy is not. Would it be possible to make a separate article about one or more of the campaigns? DGG 03:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Links to campaigns supporting public libraries (offsite comment)

One of Good Library Guide contributors pointed out that there seems to be evidence of crypto-censorship on Wikipedia on many issues so I don't know if it is a good idea to continue to cite Wikipedia as a reliable source.

Wikipedia began as a great experiment in collaboration technology but it seems to be becoming a censor's playground.

In some respects it appears to be a tool used by those with an anti-library agenda.

Issues which touch on the very survival of public libraries are routinely sidelined and all references removed.

Luckily you can trace through the history of the edits and see precisely when and where cuts have been made. Identifying the censors is not so easy. Many are anonymous and few of the published personal profiles can be trusted for accuracy. What this shows is how fragile online information can be and how much easier it is to employ crypto-censorship to digital media than to printed material. It really is a Fahrenheit 451 scenario but sneaky.

I want to cite just one example :

The pro-library quotation by Sir Tim Berners-Lee (the inventor of the World Wide Web) has been removed from his biography page several times and has been re-instated. It was finally cut off of the article entirely last July by an unknown editor. It had attracted anonymous comment and the the page was vandalised several times and had to be restored before the quotation was excised.

This is the section that was removed :

start of quote ------

Sir Tim Berners-Lee's genius is not confined to, or prejudiced by, computer technology. In a 2005 interview with BBC Television, he made a statement which shows his opinion of the reach of the internet as an informational resource.

"Even the clearest, cleverest and most comprehensive website cannot hope to equal the wealth of information contained in a good reference book. The internet is most definitely not a substitute for a well-stocked public library".

end of quote ------

I have also checked the page mentioned by one of your contributors and note that the censor in this instance claims to be a professional librarian operating in the best interests of Wikipedia by ensuring that the text is limited to that which can be deemed encyclopedic.

That rule does not seem to apply with the same level of severity on over 90% of the Wikipedia pages. The links to the international library campaigns (which include a link to this blog - I originally found this site via a Wikipedia link on the library article, that no longer exists) were moved from the main Library page to another called Public Library and then removed from that page.

Please feel free to edit the Public Library page on Wikipedia to restore the links or at least leave your comments on the Talk page associated with the Public Library page.

Posted by: Lloyd Cole at December 4, 2006 7:24 PM —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.157.14.13 ( talk) 21:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC). reply

It may have gotten confusing, but I at any rate am equally comfortable with having them in this article or having them out. The only thing I'm not comfortable with is fighting about them & reverting repeatedly 21:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Some reorg

I did some reorganizing of the lede section. Also I removed this sentence since I was not sure what it was trying to say.

In the larger cities, they are to some extent reference libraries as well and offer free access to on-line databases with resources for business, healthcare, parenting, consumer education, career counseling, and education.

Are there libraries in larger cities that offer free access to on-line databases? Or is this saying that public libraries are also reference libraries because they offer free access...? As opposed to most libraries offering access to the internet? In what countries/cities would these database access libraries be found?

Also, the information in the lede and the new section I created ( Public library#Services offered) describes libraries in the United States pretty well. Is this same description true in other countries? -- Tinned Elk 19:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC) reply

suggestion for country list compilation regarding public libraries

I would like to see a list of all countries that have public libraries included in this article Ensoll ( talk) 04:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC) reply

Merge proposal

Content has been added over at Lending library which duplicates the scope of this article here, and which ought to be moved across. While much of it may also constitute original research I think it better that it's moved to the right place at first, and then discussion can take place over what needs to be trimmed or corrected to bring it in line with content policy. Coldmachine Talk 07:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC) reply

Since there have been no objections I'll bring the content over. Coldmachine Talk 16:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC) reply

nominated for deletion

Look up public library in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

"Public library" has been nominated for deletion (" sum of parts?"). -- Chris Boston ( talk) 15:05, 6 August 2011 (UTC) reply

New Additions

Hi there! I'm currently taking my Masters of Information and one of our projects is to contribute to a Wikipedia article - in my case, Public library. I'd therefore like to add some information to the "Canada" section in this article. I also hope to expand the article in a few other areas as well; specifically at the beginning where no references are cited, and potentially the "Europe" section, which is fairly brief. I hope to have the community's support (this will be my first time editing an article on Wikipedia) and please feel free to share your feedback! ( LauraKBC ( talk) 15:10, 24 October 2011 (UTC)) reply

Canadian History for Public Libraries Added

Hi everyone! So far I've added a bunch of historical information to the "Canada" section in the article, as planned - does anyone have any thoughts? Should I add or delete anything, or is it fine as it is? I haven't had time yet to get around to anything else in the article, but maybe sometime this week I'll get a chance. Again, I'd love to here your opinions about the edit :) ( LauraKBC ( talk) 02:43, 31 October 2011 (UTC)) reply

Intro clean-up

Hi fellow Wikipedians! So, as I was reviewing some of the changes I made to the Canada section of the article, I noticed that there are a few discrepancies in the introduction to the article as a whole. Not big things (mostly grammatical), but I do intend on removing the line that suggests that lending libraries are the same as public libraries, which they aren't. Anyways, as always, any input you have would be genuinely appreciated (read: please please PLEASE provide some feedback)! Happy first of November! ( LauraKBC ( talk) 13:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)) reply

Branch library

Libraries are commissioned to bring books to people and one strategy in cities has been the development of a Branch library system. The need to bring information services to the public is as great as ever, and this successful strategy of the past must have some lessons. Searching today showed 24,754 uses of "branch library" in the encyclopedia. What sources might there be on these municipal expenditures. Rgdboer ( talk) 00:02, 2 November 2011 (UTC) reply

August 2013 reorganization

I have significantly reorganized this article and added some additional citations. The information about library history from different countries was v. interesting and has not been deleted. It is currently in my sandbox, and I will work to integrate it into appropriate places in the history of libraries article, where it will greatly benefit that page's coverage of libraries around the world. A lot of the original information and text from this article is still here, though it has been condensed where it was repetitive. I will keep an eye on this talk page in case this revision needs to be discussed. -- Libraryowl ( talk) 20:05, 12 August 2013 (UTC) reply

you erased about 6000 words that other editors have added over time. That is too radical. The Wikipedia way it to deal with one section at a time, allowing for editors' feedback. Rjensen ( talk) 20:41, 12 August 2013 (UTC) reply
OK, sorry! I will slow down and be more considerate. Libraryowl ( talk) 20:56, 12 August 2013 (UTC) reply
I didn't actually delete that information as it is well-sourced. I think a lot of the historical information should be merged into history of libraries, especially since it covers countries that are not currently covered on that page. This page does need a reorganization as it's a bit scattered right now (for example, addressing centuries, than countries, or having the United States as a 2nd-level topic, with Carnegie libraries underneath it, but also in several other places). I know it looked like I totally rewrote the article, but I was going for condensing & summarizing, not deletion. A great deal of the original text was still there, just in a different place. But I understand the need for discussion before such major changes are made.-- Libraryowl ( talk) 21:13, 12 August 2013 (UTC) reply
I agree that the history material should be summarized here and moved to a history article. But do it one country at a time. Rjensen ( talk) 22:11, 12 August 2013 (UTC) reply
OK, well, before doing that, I fixed what I believe was an error in the organization of the page, and that has helped clarify the issue for me (and hopefully for other readers/editors too?). I still think this is a fairly long and detailed history, but that minor fix made a big difference in the way the article reads. Instead of deleting/merging this info country by country, I'd like to expand the "services" section with the info from my original edit. Cool? -- Libraryowl ( talk) 22:45, 12 August 2013 (UTC) reply
good...it seems to me (as a historian) there should be more info on 21st century practices around the world, on financing, & usage rates. Rjensen ( talk) 23:27, 12 August 2013 (UTC) reply
I have added the information about services back in. I will let it rest here for the day and let some other editors have a crack at it. I agree that finances should have its own section, and that changing roles in general should be addressed separately (instead of as a sub-topic under U.S. libraries), as these issues are affecting the whole library system. Thanks for bearing with me while I learn the "Wikipedia way." -- Libraryowl ( talk) 23:43, 12 August 2013 (UTC) reply

History section

I've done a little structural work on this section, but I feel like it's way too long and detailed. It needs a good deal of trimming and summarizing in order to fit in with the rest of the article. I'd like to see most of this material moved to history of libraries or maybe even a new "history of public libraries" page. Then we could add a new section here hitting the highlights--the origins of the concept, spread of public libraries, Carnegie, recession, modernization. I see this thing being somewhere between 3-5 paragraphs. I understand (after getting tagged earlier) that a bold move like that needs community discussion and planning, so I started this section so interested parties can add their thoughts/notes. Do you think it's worth it to create a new "history" page specifically for public libraries? Would this information benefit history of libraries? Or am I totally off-track here? -- Libraryowl ( talk) 19:21, 30 August 2013 (UTC) reply

Split USA content?

A new article about Public libraries in the United States might be useful in detailing local variations. It might also incorporate US-related content in Public library advocacy and History of public library advocacy. M2545 ( talk) 13:53, 3 December 2013 (UTC) reply

This article seems very US-Centric, uses US citations throughout, doesn't seem to grasp that there are libraries in China, North Korea, Iran, Pakistan, Sierra Leone, etc. that do not have libraries described here. Nor want them. Nor allow them! Maybe changing the title and starting all over again with a world article would make more sense. Student7 ( talk) 23:16, 14 February 2015 (UTC) reply
First of all the allegations false--The first half of the article is entirely about other countries around the world, and the conditions are mentioned in every section. If you have information about libraries and other countries, please have them immediately instead of waiting for other people to do your work. Discussions of the nonexistence of public libraries in some countries could also be useful, if in fact you have some reliable sources that you depend upon. Rjensen ( talk) 03:39, 15 February 2015 (UTC) reply
For example, there is material on black history. This topic is only presented in the United States. Nowhere else. It is germane to "Libraries in the United States" but had no further relevance.
Google is censored in China. Criticism_of_Google#China. This may restrict what library patrons can access there. China may censor other sites as well.
A summary of an article purports to discuss that developed countries have privacy that is yet to be realized in China and "other" undeveloped countries. This should be fairly self-evident, I would think.
I don't find it useful to publish what the state of affairs is in the US and pretend the rest of the world not only supports it, but has implemented it. That is seldom likely. If we can't always be right, let's try to be honest. Student7 ( talk) 01:27, 17 February 2015 (UTC) reply
The problem remains that Student7 complains that the editors who have done the work on this article do not include material he thinks should be in it. Okay what is this material? What are the reliable sources that Student7 is so familiar with? Why does not he add all this valuable new material he is keeping secret about? Rjensen ( talk) 03:31, 17 February 2015 (UTC) reply
It seems to me that the WP:BURDEN of proving that Black History is typical of culture awareness raised by libraries falls on the shoulders of the editor who inserted it. It is difficult for me to prove that "Black History Month" is not celebrated in Finland, Belarus, Tibet, Cameroons, etc. Probably should be used in Public Libraries in the United States, but not here. Student7 ( talk) 15:29, 21 February 2015 (UTC) reply
Student7 does not seem to know much about libraries -- he can learn a lot by reading some more and helping to expand this article. one place to start is "Black History and the Struggle for Justice A Talk Presented at the Launch of Black History Month in Wales, 2013" on Black History Month --which is important in the UK. Rjensen ( talk) 15:36, 21 February 2015 (UTC) reply
Ditto privacy, it would be nice if the entire world had first amendment rights, but this is not the case. I remember seeing a television programme which featured the central library in Pyongyang, there were nonpublic stacks, and readers could not browse the books. Individual could browse a catalogue and make a request to borrow a book, and then depending on the book and the readers suitability to read that book (party status, reliability etc) the book would be retrieved for loan. North Korea is on the unfree end of the privacy section, and hopefully is rare, but it would be misrepresenting reality if we leave our readers to believe that the entire world is like the USA with regards to privacy.-- KTo288 ( talk) 08:07, 29 March 2015 (UTC) reply
I clarified the first sentence to indicate that the privacy paragraph is coming from a US-centric perspective.-- Steve'sEdits ( talk) 15:42, 20 March 2016 (UTC) reply

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"The modern public library grew at a great pace at the end of the 19th century especially in the English-speaking world."

(Under US section) This is a very broad statement with no ref or evidence for it. I think this should be evidenced or rephrased.

1901 book

Came across [1] - book by Alfred Cosgreave: mentioning for the record. Jackiespeel ( talk) 18:18, 7 November 2022 (UTC) reply

Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Public_library&oldid=1218556210"