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RM, Pennsylvania Station (New York City) → New York Pennsylvania Station, No consensus,
5 March 2011
RM, Pennsylvania Station (New York City) → Penn Station, Not moved,
24 January 2016
RM, Pennsylvania Station (New York City) → Pennsylvania Station (New York), Not moved,
5 November 2016.
RM, Pennsylvania Station (New York City) → New York Penn Station, Not moved,
12 September 2019
RM, Pennsylvania Station (New York City) → New York Penn Station, Not moved,
19 June 2020.
Requested move 30 May 2023
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– The current titles obscure the relation between the two stations, especially in contrast to other
Pennsylvania Stations. (The modern one was built on top of the former one.)
Pageview ratio in the last 90 days was about 2.12:1 in favor of the modern station. –
LaundryPizza03 (
dc̄) 05:43, 30 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Support for the historic station, oppose for the current station. The status quo for the current station, as (NYC), is sufficient and does not need further explanation--the main-topic among these two. But I agree with nom that the old one, while currently not ambiguous, would be more recognizeable as a sub-dab of it (NYC years).
DMacks (
talk) 11:41, 30 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I think Dmack's suggestion above makes the most sense. The current Penn station doesn't need an additional disambiguation and per
WP:DISAMBIG should be as short as possible. It also more closely matches common practice where dates are only used for the historical properties, e.g. with the Waldorf Astoria and
Waldorf-Astoria (1893–1929).
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchstalk 14:03, 30 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Pennsylvania Station (1910) would probably be fine - I actually moved that article to its current name nine years ago, since I felt it would be clearer to include the destruction date of the station (similar to
World Trade Center (1973–2001) and
270 Park Avenue (1960–2021) for example). Although, it could be argued that the old Penn Station was not fully demolished until 1968. –
Epicgenius (
talk) 01:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Move
Pennsylvania Station (New York City) to
Pennsylvania Station - Multiple stations in the PRR system were and are known as Penn Station, but these names tend to be used interchangeably, with Pennsylvania Station in Newark being more often referred to as Newark Penn, for example. In addition to this, as trivial as it may be, this was the only station in the PRR system that wasn't renamed to and from Penn Central Station in the 1960s. As such, I also believe that Pennsylvania Station (1910–1963) should stay in place as-is. The modern station is the primary topic between the two articles, as passenger operations continued during demolition of the old station. Cards84664 16:53, 30 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The modern station is a decapitated continuation of the old one (plus a recent expansion), so there is no clean division to be made here. If you don't believe me, notice how the proposed moves omit the years between 1963 and 1968, even though the station continued to function during that period.
Einsof (
talk) 01:34, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose Nothing is gained by qualifying this article with dates. This article is about the current station, and serves more purposes than just delineating the history of it. We don't qualify
St. Peter's Basilica or
St. Paul's Cathedral with date, even if they have had predecessors. This is unnecessarily pedantic. The proposal seeks only to serve those interested in the history of the station, but no one researching its history will be surprised or disoriented by the current article title. The other article is of mere historical interest, so don't oppose the second move as it helps clarification.
Walrasiad (
talk) 22:40, 31 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The current station is the more prominent and more sought out article and should not be qualified with dates that will likely prove confusing.
Keystone18 (
talk) 02:00, 3 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose both. For the historic station, the year range is precise enough that the location is not needed; this is similar to
World Trade Center (1973–2001).For the current station, the disambiguator is too long, and I think the wrong year range is being used (it should be 1963-present). However, as has been pointed out above, there is no clean cutoff point for when the old station ceased to exist and when the current station came into existence. It can certainly be argued that the current station, which uses the original platforms, still technically is the station from 1910, even though the station building has been entirely demolished. Hence, the old station is also summarized in this article. I have no opinion on whether the disambiguator for the current station should be dropped entirely (i.e.
Pennsylvania Station), but the Pennsylvania Station page is currently an article of its own, so that really should be fixed first. –
Epicgenius (
talk) 01:08, 4 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– Following up after my requested move at
Newark Penn Station and the previous requested move where multiple editors suggested moving the article to this title. Pennsylvania Station in New York City is the primary topic for the term "Pennsylvania Station". Of the articles listed at
Pennsylvania Station, only Pennsylvania Station is still currently called "Pennsylvania Station" (with the exception of defunct stations and the NYC Subway stations which are called that because of this station). :3
F4U (
they/it) 06:19, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Weak oppose - The article on
Baltimore Penn Station still says that station is known as "Pennsylvania Station" formally, though I wasn't able to confirm this after a very brief search. But, I think that a move instead to
New York Penn Station would be a more
WP:RECOGNIZABLE title with
WP:NATURAL disambiguation and more
WP:CONSISTENT with other articles on the dab page.
estar8806 (
talk)
★ 11:53, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Estar8806 on the Baltimore question, I did a fairly thorough search last year during the move request:
Talk:Baltimore Penn Station#Requested move 18 June 2022. I wonder if the "formal name" (which is not sourced) is a nod to the NRHP listing. NRHP names aren't a good guide for actual names of things, they tend to be descriptive.
Mackensen(talk) 12:01, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Mhm, my understanding is that, with the exception of Penn Station, no station uses Pennsylvania Station as their
WP:COMMONNAME :3
F4U (
they/it) 12:23, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment. Looking on Google results for "Pennsylvania station" -Wikipedia it's clear that the station in Manhattan is the clear primary topic for "Pennsylvania Station", but it is not clear to me whether that or "Penn Station" is its common name.
Thryduulf (
talk) 12:40, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
My personal and entirely unqualified experience living in NJ is that Pennsylvania Station is used in official and formal contexts, while Penn Station is used in more vernacular or news contexts. :3
F4U (
they/it) 12:54, 19 July 2023 (UTC) reply
Comment. "Penn Station" is far more frequently used than "Pennsylvania Station" -- including in subway and train (both NJT and LIRR) announcements, and the name of the subway station at 34th St. It's also used more frequently by the press, including the relatively fusty old
Grey Lady and the Wall Street Journal. A quick unscientific survey of articles from those two suggests that they both consistently use "Pennsylvania" in the first mention in the body of an article, but use "Penn" in subsequent mentions as well as in headlines and image captions. --
Avocado (
talk) 13:51, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Support moves as described by requestor, due to Pennsylvania Station being the primary topic. Cards84664 13:57, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I would weakly support this. However, my preference is for
New York Penn Station, since that would eliminate nearly all confusion (people may still link to "Pennsylvania Station" when referring to Penn Stations in other cities).
Epicgenius (
talk) 14:07, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Move instead to
New York Penn Station. This is the name seen on official signage and used by all the operators:
Amtrak,
NJ Transit,
MTA Penn Station Reconstruction,
MTA Penn Station Access use Penn Station or New York Penn Station rather than Pennsylvania Station. It's also more common in independent publications and casual conversation; searching "Penn Station" New York -Wikipedia returns ten times as many hits as "Pennsylvania Station" New York -Wikipedia, and interestingly, many of the first-page hits for the latter search refer to the
original station that was demolished in the 1960s. I'm inclined to believe that
New York Penn Station both satisfies
WP:COMMONNAME and distinguishes it from other casual uses of Penn Station. Complex/Rational 14:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose - As a New Yorker, I'd like to be able to support this, but in fact there are numerous "Pennsylvania Stations" across the US, some of which are mentioned above. The one in Manhattan is probably the most well known, but the disambiguator is still necessary. As for "Pennsylvania Station" vs. "Penn Station", the latter is clearly and obviously the most commonly used colloquial name, but an encyclopedia should use something approximating a building's formal name, and the common formal name is "Pennsylvania Station".
Beyond My Ken (
talk) 17:04, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Beyond My Ken There are four "Pennsylvania Stations" that this article is competing with:
Baltimore Penn Station,
Newark Penn Station,
30th Street Station, and
Union Station (Pittsburgh).
In pageviews, the modern New York City station gets more redirects than all of them combined. If we factor in the older Penn Station (whose history is included in this article), Pennsylvania Station (NYC) gets overwhelmingly more than the other stations. I don't really have an opinion on "Pennsylvania Station" vs "Penn Station", I just don't think the disambiguation is appropriate for a
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. :3
F4U (
they/it) 17:34, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose-While there is a case for primary topic, given how many other stations use or have used the name, and how many pages start with "Pennsylvania Station", I think it is best to leave the name as is. The disambiguation page
Pennsylvania Station could be edited to indicate that the one in NYC is the most well known. I'd also be in favor of a one year block on new move requests. --
agr (
talk) 18:03, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I had (wrongly!) assumed there was some kind of a consensus against "New York Penn Station" looking at the Requested moves history, but it looks like they were
closed with barely any discussion. I support moving to
New York Penn Station as the nominator. :3
F4U (
they/it) 19:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose both proposals. I do think the title still needs disambiguation, that is should state that it's about the station in New York City, as there are numerous Penn Stations with that actual name, even if the city is sometimes included to be specific (like Baltimore), so the original proposal is a no go. But I oppose a name that doesn't put "Penn(sylvania) Station" first, as that is the acti common name. People, especially locals, don't say "I'm going to New York Penn Station", they just say "Penn Station", in contrast to Newark where people actually call it "Newark Penn Station". The disambiguation should be parenthetical, whether or not the full "Pennsylvania" is used.
oknazevad (
talk) 20:59, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Move to
New York Penn Station., disam: Pennsylvania Station should lead readers to navigation/ understanding of all stations that have borne the name. (Incidentally, in local & announcement jargon, often called Penn Station New York or New York Penn.)
Djflem (
talk) 21:10, 19 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose: New York is indeed the primary topic for "Pennsylvania Station", and the article title should reflect this. However, there are multiple Pennsylvania Stations, and "Pennsylvania Station (New York City)" is the least ambiguous while preserving the full name of the station. "New York Penn Station" unnecessarily shortens the name, while not being significantly more common. NYP as the flagship Pennsylvania Station is notable enough that the article title should use the full name. (I would, however, prefer the original nomination of "Pennsylvania Station" over "New York Penn Station". –
Zfish118⋉
talk 20:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Support
New York Penn Station alternative move. 2nd choice is original proposal, 3rd choice is the status quo. It's usually called "Penn Station" rather than "Pennsylvania Station" so prefer the NY Penn Station natural disambiguation option.
SnowFire (
talk) 23:27, 28 July 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.