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Powerhouses win championships, not lose in everyone they've played in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.20.96.116 ( talk) 15:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
i dont understand why my addition of jeffree star to the notable alumni was removed. he's more well known than anyone else on that list these days (ask any teenager in america) and I was a freshman when he was a senior so i can confirm that he went there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.49.102.245 ( talk) 23:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Asked and answered. The reply was "WHO?" Yet when asked who others were they new. So, by your own test, he fails addition to the list. Notoriety and notability are two different things.
IrishLass (
talk) 20:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- This entry keeps getting added and deleted. If someone wants to add this musician, please either link the entry to a Wikipedia article on the musician to show notability or at least provide a reference from a reliable source (no blogs or MySpace articles) to show they are notable and attended Pacifica. Thanks, Alanraywiki ( talk) 12:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
should this be added? 75.80.127.134 ( talk) 08:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- What incident? Alanraywiki ( talk) 15:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The article should include him in the last of famous PHS alumni. Fortensky attended Pacifica High school in the late 1960's and he was the last of 8 husbands of actress Elizabeth Taylor, and in 1999 he was arrested for drug possession near Indio, California (it should be included in the article about him or that town). + Mike D 26 ( talk) 07:25, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
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https://www.ocregister.com/2019/08/19/video-shows-water-polo-athletes-at-pacifica-high-in-garden-grove-singing-nazi-march-song-while-giving-heil-hitler-salute/ Cincinnati resident ( talk) 01:33, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
Added Keizers ( talk) 21:04, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
- And removed. Anyone care to make a case for inclusion? John from Idegon ( talk) 23:28, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 00:51, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
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I will add this material unless anyone can object why. This was major news all around the world at the time. I can imagine the only reason people want to suppress it is because it's embarrassing? If so, that is not a legitimate reason to censor material from Wikipedia. This is probably the biggest reason why Pacifica HS is known worldwide.
Folks, this is the 75th anniversary of the liberation of Nazi concentration camps by American troops. You know the phrase "NEVER FORGET". So if some kids made a mistake, I forgive them. But to suppress information about the rise of Neo-Nazism among our youth goes against the promise to "NEVER FORGET". You are saying "sweep it under the carpet". I ask you to honor the memory of those who died in the Holocaust by not only NOT censoring but facing head on the facts about the rise of Neo-Nazism. Only then can we be prepared to face it, educate our kids appropriately, and squash this evil. Not by being selective about what goes into Wikipedia because it's painful.
Text to be reinstated: In 2019, events at the school were reported in the news media around the world when a video emerged, filmed in November 2018, showing members of the school's water polo team carrying out a Nazi salute before a banquet. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] Keizers ( talk) 17:00, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/21/california-high-school-nazi-salute
- ^ https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/23/orange-county-nazi-salute-pacifica-high-school
- ^ https://www.thedailybeast.com/pacifica-high-school-students-sang-nazi-song-and-gave-hitler-salute
- ^ https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/19/us/california-high-school-nazi-salute/index.html
- ^ https://time.com/5656356/california-high-school-nazi-salute/
-
Keizers, you seem to be quite confused about Wikipedia is about. Wikipedia is not here to right the wrongs of history or squash evil, nor is it here to pass judgement on any belief or government system (no matter how evil or misguided it is). Wikipedia does not approve nor disapprove of Neo-Nazism, it does not care about it being the anniversary of anything. Wikipedia is here to provide neutral information in a dispassionate and formal manner.
I agree there should be a mention of the controversy, but keep in mind Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS.At most there should maybe be a one line quip about it and it should be without judgement.Also, don't use ref tags on a talk page. It breaks the talk page and puts the references permanently at the bottom. Just hyperlink it instead. Sulfurboy ( talk) 17:26, 22 April 2020 (UTC)- What you have is childern who have in common membership in a school organization in a location that isn't a school, behaving inappropriately while not under the supervision of any adults prior to a school event. The school is not in any way involved. I'd say like
Sulfurboy, this is NOTNEWS, but it isn't even news. It's tabloid sensationalism. Unsupervised teens do stupid things. They did when I was a kid, they did when my grandfather was a kid, and they will when my kids grandchildren get to be teens. This is not in any way about the school. The only reaction the school could have is condemn them. At the time the incident occurred, the kids were kids, not students. Those over 18 were the responsibility of themselves; those under 18 their parents. And anything to do with the Holocaust is 100%
WP:COATRACK. I personally won't consider any arguments based on that. Oppose any inclusion of this, in case you cannot tell.
John from Idegon (
talk) 18:26, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
- After reading this, I'm more on the side of there being no mention at all. It in no way contributes to the sustained notability of the subject, nor does it contribute or give a clearer insight to the subject itself. Also Kaizers, if you do have the motive of stopping neo-nazism or whatever, you should personally beyond on the side of exclusion. Any power that neo-nazis have is derived solely from news coverage.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 18:34, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
- Alright, alright, I appreciate the coatrack lesson, but OK that's only about how I presented this issue here on Talk. let's just look at the issue of including the fact or not due to pure notability. The news was reported on CNN and the Guardian - is that tabloid sensationalism? The argument that the students just "happened" to attend the school is plausible... however, reviewing the Guardian article, I see that there is more information about a wholesaled history of neo-Nazism AT the school, on the premises, which is very much relevant. I will be bold and include that. If one of you reverses it, hopefully because you legitimately think it's not notable, and not because we need to suppress information from Wikipedia. Thanks!
Keizers (
talk) 20:48, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
- Dude, now you're just making things up. All the guardian article says is that two former students were bullied for being Jewish and gay. Pro-tip, kids get bullied for this kind of thing at nearly every American high school, probably even more so 30 years ago. There's nothing notable about those very anecdotal recollections. And yes CNN and Guardian participate in sensationalism all the time. And please stopping adding things to the article against consensus. Sulfurboy ( talk) 21:27, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
- Alright, alright, I appreciate the coatrack lesson, but OK that's only about how I presented this issue here on Talk. let's just look at the issue of including the fact or not due to pure notability. The news was reported on CNN and the Guardian - is that tabloid sensationalism? The argument that the students just "happened" to attend the school is plausible... however, reviewing the Guardian article, I see that there is more information about a wholesaled history of neo-Nazism AT the school, on the premises, which is very much relevant. I will be bold and include that. If one of you reverses it, hopefully because you legitimately think it's not notable, and not because we need to suppress information from Wikipedia. Thanks!
Keizers (
talk) 20:48, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
- After reading this, I'm more on the side of there being no mention at all. It in no way contributes to the sustained notability of the subject, nor does it contribute or give a clearer insight to the subject itself. Also Kaizers, if you do have the motive of stopping neo-nazism or whatever, you should personally beyond on the side of exclusion. Any power that neo-nazis have is derived solely from news coverage.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 18:34, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
- What you have is childern who have in common membership in a school organization in a location that isn't a school, behaving inappropriately while not under the supervision of any adults prior to a school event. The school is not in any way involved. I'd say like
Sulfurboy, this is NOTNEWS, but it isn't even news. It's tabloid sensationalism. Unsupervised teens do stupid things. They did when I was a kid, they did when my grandfather was a kid, and they will when my kids grandchildren get to be teens. This is not in any way about the school. The only reaction the school could have is condemn them. At the time the incident occurred, the kids were kids, not students. Those over 18 were the responsibility of themselves; those under 18 their parents. And anything to do with the Holocaust is 100%
WP:COATRACK. I personally won't consider any arguments based on that. Oppose any inclusion of this, in case you cannot tell.
John from Idegon (
talk) 18:26, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
Support inclusion. Coverage of this is worldwide, and the school is probably best known for this. Furthermore, the school itself was involved in a coverup of this event: [1] as reported by the Los Angeles Times.-- Bob not snob ( talk) 08:11, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
|
| This discussion has been disrupted by
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I replaced the relevant content from reliable sources- started new section because you had valid points about my first approach. However, now we are talking about a history of white supremacist activity specifically at that school, which appeared in mainstream global press. Please justify why the info is not relevant. Are you SURE you're not suppressing because it's unpleasant? Keizers ( talk) 13:59, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
-
Sulfurboy (
talk), removing your comments from here on Talk was a simple mistake. I meant to undo the last change on the article and accidentally I undid the last change on the Talk page and didn't realize what I had just done. Sorry about that. I was trying to undo the deletion of the relevant content that I had added. There is no consensus on this Talk page about the new content, in order to remove it you MUST state why it is not relevant or well-sourced or seek others to comment here. I think you can see it's well sourced AND relevant and it's quite shameful to suppress content simply because it makes you uncomfortable.
Keizers (
talk) 22:21, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
-
Keizers, There's very clear consensus from me and
John from Idegon. Stop trying to add inflammatory, irrelevant information against consensus.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 22:30, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- Additionally, Keizers, you'll see if you look, myself or someone else has removed content about the salute ever since it has been added. Your claim that consensus isn't required because this is different content means BRD applies (to both sets of content). This is still coatrack and still off topic. Even if you had sources that state dozens of instances of whatever it is YOU are labeling "White supremacist" behavior, that in itself doesn't show the school is causal. You've got two people opposing you and no one supporting you. I'd say STICK applies, but if you really want to...you've been here long enough you should know how
DR works...first step is BRD. And sorry, but any way you look at it,
ONUS is on you. Please stop yanking the front facing article around and discuss, notify projects neutrally to get wider participation and after that an RFC. Edit warring isn't a good look for the encyclopedia.
John from Idegon (
talk) 23:12, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- OK
John from Idegon and
Sulfurboy, so you guys are saying that the school has to cause the behavior in order to state that the behavior occurred at the school? Can you enlighten me a little more about that? I mean if there had been a march in Selma, Alabama I would expect it to be mentioned in the article on Selma... if there had been a series of child molestations or murders in a certain school I would expect it to be mentioned in the article about that school...What am I missing here? The articles were saying that there was a noticeable, unusually high level of this activity at that school among the student body during school hours. This seems to be part of the history or culture of the school then. Seriously and respectfully what am I missing here?
Keizers (
talk) 16:33, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
-
Keizers, Dude, are you really trying to compare this to the marches on selma? Or felony child molestation and murder? Do you really not see the difference in scope and severity? Just as one of the articles says: "It is unfair to paint a picture of an entire community based on the actions of a few individuals". Unless substantial, non-anecdotal evidence is presented that this school is in fact a hot spot for racist/prejudice activity, then the content shouldn't be added.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 16:42, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- I'm done. Your arguments are not persuasive. And your repeated accusations of bad faith certainly aren't endearing this discussion to my heart.
John from Idegon (
talk) 05:58, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
- John from Idegon and Sulfurboy, I read and re-read what you wrote and realized the point about the content from top-level global news providers CNN and Guardian can still be "sensational", and I kind of get your point about the school not necessarily being associated with the behavior (or at least not enough to include content which might be considered defamatory)... I still don't 100% agree but can upon reflection see the arguments as reasonable. I entered this discussion with a lot of emotion because in our society at large we have seen an increase in white supremacism and this tacitly endorsed by our highest leaders... so I cannot call the kettle black by saying that you guys didn't do a good job. (also I've fought in the past against true resistance to changes in content about the history of Atlanta from bona fide Confederates/supremacists). But as a constructive suggestion, you could try to clarify the reasons more for the layman: e.g. news articles from reliable sources are not necessarily relevant, the causal or association element of the behavior that you referred to.... this is a general problem with Wikipedia... editors get into their bubbles and have all this experience behind them, and are generally not very good at explaining WHY they remove changes as they do... and I suppose Wikipedia editors would tend to me slightly more autistic "on the scale" or one could also say lack empathy, than the average person anyway. Cheers Keizers ( talk) 01:10, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
- I'm done. Your arguments are not persuasive. And your repeated accusations of bad faith certainly aren't endearing this discussion to my heart.
John from Idegon (
talk) 05:58, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
-
Keizers, Dude, are you really trying to compare this to the marches on selma? Or felony child molestation and murder? Do you really not see the difference in scope and severity? Just as one of the articles says: "It is unfair to paint a picture of an entire community based on the actions of a few individuals". Unless substantial, non-anecdotal evidence is presented that this school is in fact a hot spot for racist/prejudice activity, then the content shouldn't be added.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 16:42, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- OK
John from Idegon and
Sulfurboy, so you guys are saying that the school has to cause the behavior in order to state that the behavior occurred at the school? Can you enlighten me a little more about that? I mean if there had been a march in Selma, Alabama I would expect it to be mentioned in the article on Selma... if there had been a series of child molestations or murders in a certain school I would expect it to be mentioned in the article about that school...What am I missing here? The articles were saying that there was a noticeable, unusually high level of this activity at that school among the student body during school hours. This seems to be part of the history or culture of the school then. Seriously and respectfully what am I missing here?
Keizers (
talk) 16:33, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
- Additionally, Keizers, you'll see if you look, myself or someone else has removed content about the salute ever since it has been added. Your claim that consensus isn't required because this is different content means BRD applies (to both sets of content). This is still coatrack and still off topic. Even if you had sources that state dozens of instances of whatever it is YOU are labeling "White supremacist" behavior, that in itself doesn't show the school is causal. You've got two people opposing you and no one supporting you. I'd say STICK applies, but if you really want to...you've been here long enough you should know how
DR works...first step is BRD. And sorry, but any way you look at it,
ONUS is on you. Please stop yanking the front facing article around and discuss, notify projects neutrally to get wider participation and after that an RFC. Edit warring isn't a good look for the encyclopedia.
John from Idegon (
talk) 23:12, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
-
Keizers, There's very clear consensus from me and
John from Idegon. Stop trying to add inflammatory, irrelevant information against consensus.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 22:30, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
- First we are editing in bad faith, then we progress to supporting white supremacy and now you've labeled us autistic. Stop pinging me. See you at ANI. John from Idegon ( talk) 01:28, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Support inclusion. The breadth of coverage shows that this is an important aspect of this school.-- Bob not snob ( talk) 08:12, 26 April 2020 (UTC)-
Bob not snob, Coverage doesn't mean it's notable or even tells anything about the high school. Wikipedia is
WP:NOTNEWS, we don't post things just because it was picked up and then quickly dropped by the media. If there was a systemic history or if the school endorsed it, then yes, it would make sense to include it. However, the actions of a few dumb kids does not establish the legacy or story of the tens of thousands of people that come through the school. Wikipedia does not give in to sensationalism.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 20:57, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia accurately reflects sources, and the legacy of alumni is not our concern. LA Times chronicles a coverup by the school: "Pacifica High administrators kept their situation quiet — which worked until this week, when the months-old ", "criticized officials at the board meeting for keeping the incident secret.". They also write multiple other hate speech incidents by Pacifica students. A teacher states that: "anti-Semitic behavior among students had been an ongoing issue at the school", and other alumni and teachers agree. So no, this is not "a few dumb kids", but much wider and the school itself kept this secret and covered up instead of dealing with it and informing parents. This school is mostly known for white supremacy.-- Bob not snob ( talk) 05:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
-
Bob not snob, Coverage doesn't mean it's notable or even tells anything about the high school. Wikipedia is
WP:NOTNEWS, we don't post things just because it was picked up and then quickly dropped by the media. If there was a systemic history or if the school endorsed it, then yes, it would make sense to include it. However, the actions of a few dumb kids does not establish the legacy or story of the tens of thousands of people that come through the school. Wikipedia does not give in to sensationalism.
Sulfurboy (
talk) 20:57, 30 April 2020 (UTC)