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Note: Material archive is not linearly stored. Some articles out of order, temporally.
The authors of this article deem it appropriate to track our decisions in a more formal manner. We've gathered and inserted Ohlone book reviews and additional information to this date (5 October 2006 (UTC)). Other authors/editors are encouraged to continue making notes and archiving them as needed. However, for clarity and efficiency to further editors, authors and readers please preserve the following archives:
Lastly, please use the blank headers below, as needed.
(archived prior to April)
Karkin page is the most stubby of the subgroups. If anyone feels like expanding. Goldenrowley 23:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC) noakfgefgargalr — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.112.209.86 ( talk) 19:48, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Ok I did a final tidy this week, then nominated it as a good article. Goldenrowley 20:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
This article looks like a GA to me, the references are quite well done, no image problems that I see, it's by and large well written and orderly, and there's only one thing that seems a bit off, "This Spanish encroachment into the region disrupted and undermined the Ohlone social structures and way of life.", unless i'm reading the article wrong, it doesn't seem to demonstrate whhy the Ohlone social structures were undermined, while I surmise the large amounts of death caused by the missions couldn't of helped their culture, the article doesn't seem to demonstrate the cultural decline here much. Also, think about expanding the lead if possible, I don't see any major problems with its scope, but with the number of different sections, it might be possible to expand it a bit better (without going overboard), and it may come up in a PR or FAC, either of which I recommend this article have next. Homestarmy 19:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Does the use of this word in the opening paragraph refer to reduction by one tenth (as it properly should), or reduction to one tenth, as it often mistakenly does? Since the answer is seldom immediately obvious without tedious and irrelevant explanations, I suggest that this word be avoided.
Paul Magnussen ( talk) 19:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Culture and Society" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. However, in reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that need to be addressed. I have made minor corrections and have included several points below that need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA. Please address them within seven days and the article will maintain its GA status. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted. If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. To keep tabs on your progress so far, either strike through the completed tasks or put checks next to them.
Needs inline citations:
Other issues:
This article covers the topic well and if the above issues are addressed, I believe the article can remain a GA. I will leave the article on hold for seven days, but if progress is being made and an extension is needed, one may be given. I will leave messages on the talk pages of the main contributors to the article along with the related WikiProjects so that the workload can be shared. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 05:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, since the issues I raised were not addressed, I have regrettably delisted the article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. If the issues are fixed, consider renominating the article at WP:GAN. With a little work, it should have no problems getting back up to GA status. If you disagree with this review, you can seek an alternate opinion at Good article reassessment. If you have any questions let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 05:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Notes on rewrite of introduction, and if it should occur. meatclerk ( talk) 19:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
--
-- meatclerk ( talk) 17:34, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
-- meatclerk ( talk) 22:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
What about the thousand-some "Californian Indian" residents living in the Point Reyes area, Marin County, California north of San Francisco? For many decades, the self-claimed Marin County Ohlones fought for state and federal recognition of themselves are descendants of the Ohlones (Karkins) and other North Coast Indians survived the Spanish colonial period of the 18th-early 19th centuries. I found no mention of the Marin County Ohlone in the article, but Marin County was thought to been visited by Ohlones from their historic range in present day San Mateo and Contra Costa-Alameda counties. + 71.102.2.206 ( talk) 05:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Dear Editors of Ohlone article: I tried to improve the History section on the fly last night and tonight, then gummed it up, including accidentally trampling inside the quotation marks on a Frank Stanger quote. (Don't know what got into me.) But I just undid all those changes I made. It is back to pre-Middle Fork. But I think the section is a mess. Frank Stanger, as a historian, is an inappropriate person to cite on SF Bay prehistory; besides that he got part of it wrong, even for 1968, if he said shell mounds date to 4000 BC (I don't have his article).
Can I get support for changing the sources for Early-Middle-Late Horizons to Beardsley 1948, Elsasser 1978, and Moratto 1984? Alternatively, I will leave Stanger in as "one alternative view" but I have no idea where he got that date, unless it was from Gifford's 1916 "shell mound volume" article that is useful only for the history of archaeological inquiry. Middle Fork ( talk) 05:41, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
To Dedicated Ohlone Page Editors. I have today made some important changes in the introduction to the article. I believe they are factually correct, but I have not inserted citations yet. I have so many citations that I do not know where to start, especially given that I will later add them in places below the introduction. One of my important changes is imbedded in the new text, that "Costanoan" is still considered the preferred alternative to "Ohlone" by most linguists. The other, the removal of "Muwekma" as an alternative to Costanoan or Ohlone, is not explained in its absence. Please be assured that the Muwekma Ohlone themselves would never contend that "Muwekma" is applied to any larger group than the combined "Ramaytush, Tamyen, Chochenyo" of the San Francisco Bay Area. None of the Rumsen or Mutsun descendents are, or consider themselves to be, Muwekma. And also, some Mutsun and Rumsen descendents currently bitterly dislike the cover-term Ohlone, instead proudly call themselves Costanoan Indians. In coming weeks, I will be adding citations and text in all other areas of this article, and hope that other editors will look up the citations before you revert me. By the end of the year, I think you will agree that my additions will strengthen the article and help achieve the certification from Wikipedia for which Goldenrowley has applied. Middle Fork ( talk) 16:40, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Hey, Goldenrowley. I am glad you accepted most of my changes. Note that copy-editor Maleus (sp?) really went through it and made some text much more straightforward. I also have read some of your earlier discussion, and know that you guys have really struggled with the term Muwekma. But I really do not believe it is appropriate in an introductory discussion on the overall language group name. If you start talking about Muwekma as a language name in the introduction, something Jack Forbes proposed, then you are almost obliged to discuss its different use as a modern cultural/political group name right there in the introduction, and that brings up the word Amah, which is in the same tradition. I have added a new footnote in the Language section which discusses the introduction of the word Muwekma in the Forbes classification, and its subsequent rejection. Do what you want, including revert. I will live with it. Gotta go focus elsewhere for awhile. Middle Fork ( talk) 15:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Editors. I have just removed a sentence that was sitting at the end of the list of Ohlone divisions because the statement, a quote, does not exactly address the problem that it intends to address. Here it is. "According to Milliken, "Language group designations are spelled as commonly found in English language publications... however many tribal, village and personal names which are not commonly found in literature present a problem. They were written by Spanish settlers who were trying to capture the sounds of languages foreign to them." [1]" This was originally written by Milliken to explain how "he" was going to spell the names of the divisions. But as it was being used here in Wikipedia, it seems to be trying to explain how "anyone" came to spell the names. And amazingly enough, the problem is resolved by referring to "English language publications." Does that not seem circular to you? Anyway, I say we do not even address the issue, just leave this quote out of the article. Middle Fork ( talk) 18:12, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
References
To All Editors and Commentators. I have taken the liberty to move a sentence that was just added to the culture section here for purposes of its contemplation. The sentence was just added by editor Plumpurple (glad to know you), hard upon the existing material on plant use:
My number one problem is the lack of citation for this statement (which Plumpurple can probably quickly fix.) My number two problem is, "What is this special interest in wood fern?" The paragraph on plant use is currently nicely presented without enumerating the scores of plant uses documented for central California Indians. Adding it in opens up criticism as to why soapplant, for instance, was not mentioned, or why the three species used to make bowstrings have not been listed here. Does Wikipedia have a page for "Native Plant Uses in California?" Perhaps a link could be made to such a page, or perhaps someone could start such a page. Middle Fork ( talk) 03:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The population section includes this text: "Later researchers such as Richard Levy estimated "10,000 or more" Ohlone." The source in the reference section: (Margolin, Malcolm. The Ohlone Way: Indian Life in the San Francisco-Monterey Bay Area) also reads "Over 10,000 people lived in the coastal area between Point Sur and the San Francisco Bay.", and further says, "Before the coming of the Spaniards, Central California had the densest Indian population anywhere north of Mexico." That sounds like an interesting claim, are there any other sources that support this? Should this note be added to the population section? Kaitymh ( talk) 23:56, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Done
"The highest estimate comes from
Sherburne F. Cook, who in later life concluded there were 26,000" yet later we say, he didn't give a number. All the best,
Rich
Farmbrough, 14:10, 12 April 2014 (UTC).
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I removed the following uncited, POV, and dubious claims:
To begin with, the Ohlone/Costanoan peoples were never centralized polities with any kind of "capital", but simply loose villages with no authority beyond the village level, only a loose tribal identity related to what dialect of Ohlone the group spoke. How the Chechenyans were the most "advanced" of the Ohlone peoples is neither stated nor sourced, and is an entirely dubious claim. The various Ohlone peoples and neighboring non-Ohlone natives all existed at a more or less equal technological and political level.
I've kept a single sentence describing the Emeryville Shellmound, with a "cite needed" note. Peter G Werner ( talk) 22:52, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ohlone/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
== Rewrite in progress == Several of us are working to rewrite and extend the article. However, even though there is an initial estimate of two (2) years to completion, progess will bump and grind while older, less accurate, material gets weeded out. -- meatclerk 07:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 01:43, 1 January 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 01:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
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There is a non-sequitur in two sentences in the Introduction section that hint at potential improvement with a brief but important clarification:
Prior to the Gold Rush, the northern California region was one of the most densely populated regions north of Mexico.[3] However, in the years 1769 to 1833, the Spanish missions in California had a negative effect on Ohlone culture, and the Ohlone population declined steeply during this period.
Is there a cause-effect relationship here? The second sentence changes topic from demographics ("densely populated") to anthropology ("negative effect on Ohlone culture"): they don't fit. However, with proper documentation and citations, the first sentence could move beyond implication to state that Spanish missions introduced Eurasian diseases (typical impact across the Americas), which had more than just a "negative effect" on Ohlone culture: very likely, the Spanish missions decimated the population of the peninsula, which in turn could have led to loss of culture... Is there an expert who could flesh this out briefly but accurately? (I did not find details to this effect in the article below.) -- Aboudaqn ( talk) 21:01, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
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Someone added two (2) paragraphs under #Etymology. The writting was a subjective entry. I deleted it. Please help the person adding this material. They may be well intentioned, but you CANNOT write an entry as an opinion, as this person did.
Thanks meatclerk ( talk) 04:58, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
Need to update these subsections with information with 2011 victories for the indigenous peoples. (Making a note for myself when I have some time) Bastique ☎ call me! 16:46, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
Ramaytush are the only remaining Ohlone who lived on the SF peninsula but they indicate that another group, I believe Yelamu, lived in what is now SF. Are Yelamu part of a larger Ramaytush grouping as indicated on Wikipedia, or are they distinct but also effectively extinct? The sources here are from 1995. I suggest using recent Ohlone sources.
This new article may be of relevance to this article. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 02:20, 22 March 2022 (UTC)