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Northern Europe definitions

Ruhrjung, you claim that Wikipedia is not an authoritative source. Why is that the case when other encyclopedias like Britannica and Encarta have the right to this authority? Why does Wikipedia, instead of being a precise information resource, always have to give confused and uncertain definitions about things? Secondly, even if "Wikipedia has to mirror and report current and/or historical usage, not to bend reality to seem more logic and sensible", then the definition I put as Northern Europe is correct, and is used. What don't you agree with - we know Scandinavia is in Northern Europe, Finland also. So is it the Baltic states you don't agree with? Or the absence of UK & Ireland? The Baltic states, are Northern European - more and more people are starting to see them that way. Geographically, they are northern, more northern than Denmark. Culturally, they are Nordic - Lutheran, Nordic customs, Nordic historical influences, etc. Even politically and socially, they are becoming more and more northern - very free market economies (as in, some of the most liberal economic policies in the world), technological adoption, etc. They are Northern European, I don't see what's wrong with including them in this article, especially since the 2nd remark talks about their relation to Eastern Europe. Now, on to UK & Ireland - these countries are not Northern European, especially from a British POV (I'm not British by the way). Very few people consider these countries "Nordic", and, while culturally they have some similarities to Scandinavia, they have been for long attached more to Western Europe - France, Belgium, Netherlands, etc. As with Northern Germany, Poland and Russia, because they are just regions, we can't include them in the statistics. They have however, been mentioned as "sometimes included". So, for that reason, I don't see what the problem is with including a map and some statistics about a region that has a lot in common and we can use to compare to other regions in Europe which are different. Cheers, Ronline 05:11, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I claim that Wikipedia's credibility and authority would be destroyed if Wikipedia took particular points of views – particularly if they are in opposition against common English usage. What you ought to do, is to word your preferred POV along the lines of According to Whitehall, the following countries are currently considered... Them with other preferred POV would thereby be invited to substantiate also their claims, and as a result there would be less of conflicts and more of relevance in Wikipedia.
-- Ruhrjung 08:40, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Could any of you list some sources? Like Encyclopedia Britannica, and others? My gut feeling is that the baltic states are not northern europe, (but eastern europe), but I can live with it either way. Depending on the majority and the prestige of the sources, the baltics can be included, or listed under Additionally, two three other groups ... . In any case, Wikipedia describes what other sources states, and does NOT aim to generate a new view! – Chris 73 Talk
Wikipedia can and should express a neutral point of view and hence inform about different views. What if you included a paragraph about the discussion whether the baltics should be considered northern Europe or not? If you word it in such a way that both views come to the forefront of the section, that is certainly better than stating a POV or no NPOV at all. Inter 15:20, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
While Wikipedia should consider other sources and common English usage, what's more important is correctness, I think we are old and large enough to be an authoritative source of information, especially when the arguments can be proved by logic. The Baltic states _are_ part of Northern Europe and not part of Eastern Europe, due to the reasons above. Saying that "according to Britannica, XYZ is in Northern Europe, but Encarta disagrees, while Brockhaus claims that just XY are part of Northern Europe" is confusing and basically eliminates the need for Wikipedia as an information source. People then using Wikipedia for research wouldn't know how to interpret the information. Rather, we should say this: we should include the Baltic states if there is more reason to include them than not - therefore, it is correct to include them. Now if you can prove to me why they shouldn't be included, I shall accept. But as long as you use the weak argument of "well, not all sources say they're Northern Europe, we'll just wash our hands and exclude them", you're not gaining anything. You're not proving that something's correct, just that it's commonly used. There's a big difference.
As to including a paragraph to explain, that would be fine. There already is one (remark #2), but we could expand it. Something like that already exists at Eastern Europe, where the old definition is explained in more detail.
After this, I hope we move on to a real, logical argument rather than just reverting based on what other sources say. I won't revert back for now, but please don't use this as an opportunity to just "keep quiet". If you don't want the Baltic states included, what's the actual logical reason? Ronline 08:12, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It is certainly very exaggerated to say that the Baltic states are culturally Scandinavian countries. Besides, there are big differences between them.
Lithuania is culturally a Catholic Central European country and has strong cultural ties to Poland. It definitely isn't a Nordic country.
Estonia has much Nordic in it and is the culturally closest from the three Baltic states to the Scandinavian countries. Finland used to be a Baltic state but now it has shifted to the Scandinavian countries. Possibly the same will happen to Estonia. The difference, however, is that there is no general knowledge of Scandinavian languages in Estonia as there is in Finland, and there is much less Swedish influence in Estonia than in Finland. The Estonian culture (except folklore) is predominantly a product of German culture, other influences are minor. Besides, Estonia is tied to Finland by linguistic closeness creating a certain feeling of unity. Russian culture has influenced Estonia quite little, except in the localities of compact ethnic Russian settlement. You can see a big Orthodox cathedral next to the Parliament but there are few Estonian orthodox people. The south-east corner of Estonia is an exception as it was permanently under Russia until the twentieth century. Some politicians (including Toomas Hendrik Ilves) have uttered opinions that Estonia should identify itself as a Nordic or Scandinavian country, not as Baltic state.
Latvia is half like Estonia (except that its language is not related to Estonian and Finnish) and half like Lithuania.
The Nordic Council considers expanding to the Baltic States. If this happens its working language will be English. As to now it uses Swedish, Danish and Norwegian that are mutually understandable. Andres 09:13, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
OK, there are two points I wish to make here. Firstly, there is a difference between the Nordic countries and Northern Europe. The Nordic countries are what we basically know, wrongly, as Scandinavia - Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and Iceland. Of course, Scandinavia is Norway, Sweden and Denmark only, but the Nordic countries is the term used for the Nordic Council countries. Northern Europe, however, is a broader term, which also includes the Baltic states. We don't have to prove that the Baltic states are Scandinavian, which they can never be, all we can say is that they have been influenced by the Nordic region. Estonia is of course of Northern European country. There is no doubt to that. Latvia is also, mainly due to many common traditions with the rest of Northern Europe. I don't think we can exclude Lithuania, then, especially since it is, arguably, closer to Northern Europe than to Central Europe, in language and a lot of its fundamental culture (excluding Polish influences). The second think I wish to say is this: when including countries in regions, we have to find the best fit. There are no less than four regions in which to include the Baltic states, but we have to choose the best one. Basically, our choices are:
  • Central Europe - a poor choice, since Slovenia and Estonia are not at all alike. Perhaps Lithuania would fit in easier, but Estonia, for example, is too far north-east to be classified with Central Europe. The Baltic states would be geographical outliers if placed in Central Europe. I suppose that there may be a cultural link to Central Europe via Germany, but there is no link to Slavic Central Europe.
  • Eastern Europe - a better, but still poor, choice. Basically, Estonia is NOT Eastern European because culturally it is _very_ different, and it simply can't be lumped together with Moldova and Belarus, or Ukraine and Russia. The same goes for the other Baltic states - they face different issues to the countries presently included in Eastern Europe.
  • Northeastern Europe - basically, the formation of a new region similar to Southeastern Europe. This would be OK, just that the Baltic states are too small and with too small population to currently require the formation of a new region for them. They _have_ to be merged into another region.
  • Northern Europe - the best choice. These countries are closest culturally to Northern Europe, they are northern in geography, they are northern in their outlook, therefore this is their best fit.
The other issue is this: why is all this fuss going on when the article always included the Baltic states as a part of Northern Europe. I think people just got worked up over the map featuring the Baltic states, but what's the problem when even now, the article states:
Northern Europe is a name for the northern part of the European continent. At different times this region has been defined differently but today it is generally seen to include:
  • the Nordic countries, i.e. Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland.
  • the Baltic States, i.e. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
  • the British Isles, which includes the United Kingdom and Ireland
  • others, e.g. Northern Russia, Northern Germany, Northern Poland, and The Netherlands
I removed the British Isles because it is wrong to include them there, and we also can't include fragments of countries. Therefore, what's the argument? I didn't significantly "alter" the structure of this region. By the way, I will revert back tomorrow if there are no new replies from the people who originally reverted my edits (Ruhrjung, etc). Ronline 08:18, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Your whole premise, that northern, western, eastern, etc. Europe have precise and mutually exclusive definitions, is fundamentally flawed. For instance, you consider it self-evident to exclude the British Isles from northern Europe; I am British and do not sse this as anything like as clear cut; for instance, this weeks's edition of the Evening Standard's Homes and Property section talked about a new shop in London as being its owner' "first branch in northern Europe". Susvolans (pigs can fly) 18:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
So then what would be your scenario? To make one of those maps full of hashed lines signifying countries which are part of more than one region? That simply wouldn't work. We need to establish, based on concensus, politicial boundaries for these regions so that we can then analyse them statistically, etc. There are some people that believe the UK is in Northern Europe, just how there are some that believe that Croatia is in Central Europe, for example. I am not against sorting out controversies in the article, since Wikipedia is meant to be NPOV, but at the same time highlight multiple points-of-view (this is apparently the official policy). What I propose that we have for the regions is this: for statistical/mapping purposes, a precise set of countries which would comprise the "current definition" or "compact definition". Then, we could also say, as I did in my Northern Europe article, "this region may also include:" and then we list the UK, Northern Germany, etc. We could also explain the basis for including each. For example, "while the UK is usually considered Western Europe, due to its historical and political ties to the region, it is sometimes considered Northern Europe because of its geographical position and also because it has some ethnic ties with the Nordic countries", or something like that. I'm totally in favour of explaining to people the situation from multiple points of view. What we need though, it to also form some "clear-cut" versions of the regions, for statistical and mapping purposes. That's why I advocate including only the Nordic countries and the Baltic states in the region on the map, and then listing "other possible countries" and explaining why they should/shouldn't be included. If we don't include the Baltic states in Northern Europe, they will have to be included in another region for statistical/mapping purposes. Just see Regions of Europe - they have "clear-cut" maps for regions, otherwise it will all be just too confusing. By the way, the Baltics are mentioned in Eastern Europe additionally, which is OK, but their main mention should be in Northern Europe, just how the UK should be given a mention that it is sometimes included in Northern Europe, but it should be listed as a core country in Western Europe, explaining why this is so. Finally, I'm reverting now, since no-one has given any argument as to why the Baltic states shouldn't be included. Ronline 22:21, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Europe and Regions of Europe are surely perceived as flawed by not so few Wikipedians. It's also astonishing that you don't see the arguments given to you - compare what Andres writes above on the Baltic states. Most importantly, however, is that you try to suppress other points of views than your own, which is not how things are supposed to be at Wikipedia. You better not revert.
-- Ruhrjung 22:40, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
I am not trying to supress anyone's point of view. My version of the article is the most inclusive version because it states that the UK and Northern Germany, etc may also be included, while also including the Baltic states and the Nordic countries in the core version. "you don't see the arguments given to you" - Ruhrjung, no arguments have yet been given to me as to why the Baltic states should not be included. Andres advocated the inclusion of Estonia, as well as to an extent Latvia, but not Lithuania. So are we fighting here over Lithuania? The fact is that we can continue to squabble over where to include the Baltics, but Northern Europe is the best place for them. Andres misinterpreted Northern Europe as being the Nordic countries. Again, I am not trying to supress anyone's point of view. Also, you just don't seem to understand the following thing: the Baltic states were part of the article even before my edits. I wasn't the one to add them there. All I did was create a map and some statistics which included them as part of the region, but excluded UK & Ireland because it was not right putting it there. So what you're saying now is that the Baltic states shouldn't be included - well, guess what, the version that you keep on reverting to states this:
Northern Europe is a name for the northern part of the European continent. At different times this region has been defined differently but today it is generally seen to include:
   * the Nordic countries, i.e. Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland.
   * the Baltic States, i.e. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
   * the British Isles, which includes the United Kingdom and Ireland
   * others, e.g. Northern Russia, Northern Germany, Northern Poland, and The Netherlands
The Baltic states are included equal to the Nordic countries. If you're so anti-Baltic-states-being-in-Northern-Europe, then delete them out. Why is my version of the page any less inclusive, more arrogant or flawed than the present version? As to "you better not revert", I believe I have as much of a right as you to make changes to the page, so please don't impose conditions like that. Ronline 22:55, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You insist on inserting maps and statistic figures for "regions" defined according to your fancy, despite the critique you repeatedly have received here. Thereby you make Wikipedia giving the impression that these deliminations are somehow right and other understandings are wrong. This is not in any way acceptable. I revert your changes. -- Johan Magnus 13:22, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You are the one that keeps on insisting that my definitions of regions are subjective and personal. That is not the case - in fact, I have based my maps and stats on what were the regional definitions already in the article. In Central Europe, for example, there was already a list of countries in the region and a map. All I did was add some stats, which are very useful. For Southern Europe, there were already definitions - again, I created a map and made some stats. It is really on Northern Europe where I altered the "definition" a little bit by taking out UK & Ireland, which I think don't belong in Northern Europe, and which I have a significant case for including in Western Europe. We argued about including the Baltic states, but the fact is that they were already listed as an integral part of Northern Europe, so I didn't show any personal or political bias by including them in the map/stats - I only put what was there. I also support that we give more extended definitions of regions saying "while these countries are generally seen to nearly always be in xx region, yy can also be included because..." I am not saying therefore that my understanding is better than others. I have used what was already in the article, so it is not my bias, and then I accepted other understandings, saying that they should also be included in the article (such as, why the UK & Ireland are sometimes included in Northern Europe). Therefore, I don't see a need to revert the useful stats and the maps which give reasonably correct definitions of "core" countries of a particular region. Ronline 06:00, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Language map

It has recently been argued by Vlaemink that the language map is unsuitable and a talk section asked for. I would argue that it is useful, giving the language family of the most common first language spoken in the country. The caption, to me, adequately describes what is being shown and language families that may be important but are not the most common in a country. I found when making this map that when you try to do stripes and so on to show multiple languages being spoken it can get very messy very quickly. It'd be great if Vlaemik could to provide an example of a better map that they've said exist - I will gladly support a better map if one is found. What are people's thoughts on the map? Ingwina ( talk) 10:51, 25 December 2022 (UTC) reply

I don't see what the issue is really either given the caption, but it would help if Vlaemink could showcase these other maps that were mentioned. TylerBurden ( talk) 03:55, 26 December 2022 (UTC) reply
I do think the map should be limited to the British Isles, Nordic countries and Baltic states, as different combinations of those three specific regions (some have all three, some have the Nordic countries and Baltic states but not the British Isles, some have the British Isles and Nordic countries but not the Baltic states, and some just have the Nordic countries) are the general definition of Northern Europe. Vesperius ( talk) 00:09, 27 December 2022 (UTC) reply
In general: this small article has 7 maps, most of which show the entirety of Europe and little actual information; this particular map would be the 8th, which would constitute complete overkill especially given the fact that this article doesn't even have a section on the linguistic landscape to begin with. In addition to this, the article barely has any reputable sources. Given the fact that the cite your sources-template has been at the top of this page since 2015, I think it's fair to say the problem concerning the sources is structural. Rather than break with this, this map perpetuates this already existing problem by having no sources.
Specifically concerning this map:
1) A map is a visual piece of information, to which the same standards apply as with plain text when it comes to reliability. If it is supposed to portray the linguistic landscape of Northern Europe, it must do so accurately. Remarks about its presentation and style (for example, whether or not stripes 'look good' or not) are entirely and completely of secondary importance.
This map (which has no source) for example, shows both Belgium and Luxemburg in blue, i.e. Germanic speaking. That's ridiculous: 40% of Belgians speak French, a Romance language. In Luxembourg 52% speak a Germanic language natively, while French is the dominant lingua franca throughout the country. It also completely and utterly omits an entire branch of the Indo-European language tree by not showing any Celtic language, neither in Britany or in the British Isles; nor the centuries old linguistic pockets in existence, such as Dutch spoken in Northern France, German in Eastern France or Sorbian in Germany.
2) The article clearly shows there is no uniform definition of what constitutes "Northern Europe", what references were used for the definition used in this map? No idea.
3) I have no idea why this map should employ a first past the post-approach when it comes to displaying the languages of this particular part of Europe. I don't see any argument in favor of it.
Vlaemink ( talk) 16:10, 27 December 2022 (UTC) reply
So to do respond to this, firstly, what is the best format for this? It will be very easy to do as I have them and I do think that we are in agreement that they are correct in so far as they show accurately the most common first language in each country. If I understand the qualms correctly, it is that the aim of the map is wrong? For example, while you suggest that the contents of the map are ridiculous, you do seem to also agree that the most common language family spoken in both Belgium and Luxembourg is Germanic. I do agree this page has problems and perhaps that is best discussed in another talk section e.g. I personally think the difficulties with defining the area chokes expansion. We should have a good agreement on which parts of Europe we are to talk about in any text discussion of say demographics. Furthermore, yes, this map is fairly young but it is an updated version of a map that was used for two years previously and while not perfect, this addresses a number of issues with the previous iteration.
Beyond this, regarding your numbered points:
1) I am not sure you understand me correctly. My issue is not that I am trying to hide the truth behind aesthetics. I raise the problems of stripes as if we start breaking countries down into smaller regions and then including multiple language families in one area, how do we present this in a manner that is not misleading? Do we do shades that are proportional to number of speakers? If so, finding colours that cannot be confused becomes very challenging. If we do a boolean stripe system of languages, what threshold do we use to include it? We could potentially use something like https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Indo-European_Language_Family_Branches_in_Eurasia.png however I am not sure what threshold they use to define the language for each area.
2) TylerBurden and I have discussed this previously on the page and the rationale for choosing the focussed on area was the very sensible point he made was to have a frame that included all the areas that could be classified as in Northern Europe according to the definitions set out on the page, then to include the primary language for all shown countries.
3) While it would be good to have a more precise map, I do not have the bandwidth to produce it and we need to be very specific about how we define the boundaries and languages (as described above). I think given that the image is very explicit in what it describes, it is functional for now and while I would love for someone to make an improved version, I do not think it is either harmful or best removed. It's biggest issue to me is the lack of references but I can very easily do this once we decide how best to reference it. Ingwina ( talk) 20:38, 27 December 2022 (UTC) reply
I think this map specifically is the one that works the best: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NorthernEuropeanNationalLanguageMap2.png Vesperius ( talk) 02:08, 28 December 2022 (UTC) reply

I used the word ridiculous with respect to this map due to it showing Belgium and Luxemburg as completely Germanic-speaking. This has nothing to do with the fact that 60% and therefore a majority of, say, Belgium speaks a Germanic language; but with the fact that using a " first past the post-approach" for a linguistic map on this scale is simply ludicrous. It's akin to showing a map of the entire United States as completely voting democratic due to them receiving 51.3% of the vote. As I've said before, languages such as French, Irish, Welsh, Sorbian (but also Dutch and German in France) have been spoken there for over a millennium; it serves no purpose at all to create a "linguistic map of Northern Europe" and omit them.

1) I understood you perfectly fine, that is why I emphasized that aesthetics are subordinated to factual accuracy.

2) That's OR, plain and simple. If you want a particular map in this article, you find a reference that uses such a map. One does not go about almagate various (and mostly) unreferenced materials.

3) That's a strawman argument, because firstly it assumes that this small, almost completely unreferenced article needs an 8th map. Secondly, and with all due respect, but your personal ability, timewise or otherwise, to produce an accurate map is not an argument in keeping an inaccurate unsourced map. Vlaemink ( talk) 16:35, 1 January 2023 (UTC) reply

Mapping Error

Just wanted to point out that under Classifications > EuroVoc, there is a map of countries coloured depending on their status. Whilst Denmark is listed as part of Northern Europe, it is coloured green, which represents Western Europe in this map. I don't know how to change this but thought it should be pointed out. Ollie HF ( talk) 19:15, 27 December 2023 (UTC) reply

Removed the map as it was WP:OR, it had been created by a Wikipedia editor with no referencing to EuroVoc itself. TylerBurden ( talk) 21:11, 27 December 2023 (UTC) reply
legend Ollie HF ( talk) 22:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC) reply
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