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In the intro to the article it states: "the Northeastern region is the nation's most economically developed, densely populated, and culturally diverse region". Which appears to be a direct quote from one of the sources. I don't quibble to much with the first two. But culturally diverse? Maybe considering New York or New Jersey....but most of that region is heavily white. Especially the New England States. There are states in the deep south (for example) that have larger percentages of minorities than any state in the Northeast.....so I have to question that statement. Rja13ww33 ( talk) 21:51, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- A region being "heavily white" doesn't mean it isn't also "culturally diverse". Having "larger percentages of minorities" doesn't make a state "culturally diverse". Maher-shalal-hashbaz ( talk) 11:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the cited source (World Regional Geography) explicitly states on page 647, "Of the five regions of the United States, the Northeast is the most intensively developed, densely populated, ethnically diverse, and culturally intricate." Maher-shalal-hashbaz ( talk) 18:32, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
The version that had been worked on over the years gained consensus in 2014 and has served its purpose well for more than 5 years. There is no good reason to take a step backward to the less inclusive map that was rejected. So the correct path would be to have the discussion here before changing it again. Maher-shalal-hashbaz ( talk) 14:21, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- I believe the edit by
Lone Internaut was just. The light pink states on the map are a product of synthesis, especially gradations within the pink area. A similar problem arose in the
Southern United States article many years ago and it was decided to use the Census map rather than gradations which are generally created by opinion and randomized sources found on internet searches.
Dubyavee (
talk) 17:24, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't have much to add to what Dubyavee said, I agree. Other secondary definitions, besides the one used by the Census, can be wrote down the article text, but as far as the main map (and the data) in the template is concerned, we should used one map, with one color, one single clear and official definition, which is the Census' one. The fact the actual map was used for more than 5 years does not delegitimize a legit change. Lone Internaut ( talk) 01:08, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree, the map should continue to show the broader area that is generally known as the American Northeast. Similar to
Southwestern United States,
Northwestern United States, and
Southeastern United States, all of which have maps showing regions of varying degrees of certainty. Consensus has long been overwhelmingly in favor of including Delaware and Maryland, so they should be included on the primary map. I think the fact that the same editor has reintroduced the map three times and been reverted by multiple editors is enough to delegitimize the change.
Hokie
RNB 12:40, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- The pink area of the map is original research, particularly the gradations of shading, obviously based on internet searches and not reliably sourced. No one really believes West Virginia is part of the northeast. What is represented in your map is actually
Lost Cause ideology and is a result of the work of sociologist
Howard W. Odum. Odum was described as "Born near Mount Pleasant, Georgia, to a family of small fundamentalist farmers, Odum imbibed southern patriotism from his grandfathers, both [Confederate] Civil War veterans." In 1936 Odum published his highly influential work "Southern Regions of the United States". He distilled his research into a map titled "Rank of States Based on Twenty-Three Cultural Tables", which you can see here
[1]. When Odum drew up the regions he dropped a loop down from the Northeast and included West Virginia, without explaining his decision. However, sociologist Rupert Bayless Vance revealed in his book "Regionalism and the South" that Odum based the removal of WV from the south on what Odum believed was the Civil War history of the state and nothing else. Odum based his decision on a states' support of the Confederacy, though he kept Kentucky in the south. Modern research has shown however that WV was more supportive of the Confederacy than KY, so Odum's change to the map was not just ideological but also historically wrong. The great popularity of the book among universities and government agencies, particularly during the expansion of government agencies under FDR, meant that the regional maps created by Odum would be reflected in hundreds of government and academic publications for decades. You can see an example of this in a 1940 publication by the Dept. of Education which uses Odum's work to put WV in the Northeast.
[2] This is the reason why, for the most part, there is a greater frequency of WV showing up in definitions of the Northeast, and it is based on Odum's 'Lost Cause' mentality which totally ignored the results of his own research.
Dubyavee (
talk) 16:49, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- The regions linked by Hokie are not the same regions as the main four well defined by United States Census Bureau and like the one the article is concerned, so it's a different thing, not useful to bring them here. I think Dubyavee pretty much exposed the whole thing and I still support to edit the article. Also basically only 2 users reverted my edits and I don't think that is absolutely enough to delegitimize a legit edit. Lone Internaut ( talk) 18:19, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- The pink area of the map is original research, particularly the gradations of shading, obviously based on internet searches and not reliably sourced. No one really believes West Virginia is part of the northeast. What is represented in your map is actually
Lost Cause ideology and is a result of the work of sociologist
Howard W. Odum. Odum was described as "Born near Mount Pleasant, Georgia, to a family of small fundamentalist farmers, Odum imbibed southern patriotism from his grandfathers, both [Confederate] Civil War veterans." In 1936 Odum published his highly influential work "Southern Regions of the United States". He distilled his research into a map titled "Rank of States Based on Twenty-Three Cultural Tables", which you can see here
[1]. When Odum drew up the regions he dropped a loop down from the Northeast and included West Virginia, without explaining his decision. However, sociologist Rupert Bayless Vance revealed in his book "Regionalism and the South" that Odum based the removal of WV from the south on what Odum believed was the Civil War history of the state and nothing else. Odum based his decision on a states' support of the Confederacy, though he kept Kentucky in the south. Modern research has shown however that WV was more supportive of the Confederacy than KY, so Odum's change to the map was not just ideological but also historically wrong. The great popularity of the book among universities and government agencies, particularly during the expansion of government agencies under FDR, meant that the regional maps created by Odum would be reflected in hundreds of government and academic publications for decades. You can see an example of this in a 1940 publication by the Dept. of Education which uses Odum's work to put WV in the Northeast.
[2] This is the reason why, for the most part, there is a greater frequency of WV showing up in definitions of the Northeast, and it is based on Odum's 'Lost Cause' mentality which totally ignored the results of his own research.
Dubyavee (
talk) 16:49, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
![[1]](https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5602/15442138289_bd8290c253.jpg){kind=link}
Actually, the pink areas on the map are there because the Environmental Protection Agency, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the National Fish and Wildlife Service, and the National Park Service all include states in the Northeast that aren't included in the Census Bureau's definition. So when you say "no one really believes West Virginia is part of the northeast," that sounds more like original research to me. Or personal preference. Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you that West Virginia isn't really northeastern in character. But the reliable sources disagree. I am nearly 100% certain that no one considered the work of Howard Odum in shading this map. It was done merely based on the preponderance of reliable sources. This article is not merely about a region defined by the census bureau, so it makes no sense to limit the map to only that definition. Hokie RNB 20:45, 8 December 2020 (UTC}
- Those are NOT reliable sources for defining a cultural or geographical region. The Odum definition of the Northeast that I detailed was to make the point that his definition was used in many government agencies and departments from the 1940's on, and THAT is why that definition shows up even on contemporary maps. I think the original map with an ungraduated pink area should replace the current map.
Dubyavee (
talk) 19:11, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure why you consider one government agency to be reliable and not the other four listed by HokieRNB, but perhaps you'll also consider that the majority of textbooks (including Hudson's Across This Land: A Regional Geography of the United States and Canada, McIlwraith's North America: The Historical Geography of a Changing Continent, and Shelley's Political Geography of the United States) ignore the Census Bureau's definition. It has been well-established and attained broad consensus that the Census Bureau's definition, while important, is not considered the only canon in this article. Maher-shalal-hashbaz ( talk) 16:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
- Reliable sources are not reliable if they are misused. Government agency maps are generally administrative and not meant to define the US geographically and culturally. That is why the EPA map places the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico in Region 2 with New York. The article map is a visual distortion of what is a relatively minor number of US Government maps while ignoring a great number of government maps which state the opposite definition, as shown in this article-
Even the US government can't agree on how to divide up the states into regions. The map codifies marginal instances of Virginia and West Virginia's inclusion. The article should concentrate on the Northeast as generally understood rather than fudge definition. I would think that the American Association of Geographers and Geological Society of America would carry greater weight than the NPS or EPA administrative maps.
Dubyavee (
talk) 19:46, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
- You appear to be referring to some administrative map of the EPA. The reference in the article is actually to the area which the EPA considers "Northeast" in its study of climate change - which is from the Chesapeake Bay to Maine. For instance, on page 112 of that reference, it says, "The Northeast is characterized by a megalopolis that extends from Boston to Washington, D.C." I hardly think that administrative and bureaucratic boundaries need to factor into the decision on which map is best. But when this article talks about the "climate of the Northeast", it needs to take into account what reliable sources on the climate (i.e. the EPA) say the Northeast is. I think the article you pointed to in Business Insider (hardly what I would consider a "reliable source" by the way) merely underscores the need for flexibility in the map to show what is considered part of the Northeast.
Maher-shalal-hashbaz (
talk) 22:39, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- I think I agree with Dubyavee. Our articles on the West, the South, and the Midwest use "solid" Census definitions in the lead without gradating. Why should our Northeast article be different in this respect?-- DruidLantern8 ( talk) 23:00, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- You appear to be referring to some administrative map of the EPA. The reference in the article is actually to the area which the EPA considers "Northeast" in its study of climate change - which is from the Chesapeake Bay to Maine. For instance, on page 112 of that reference, it says, "The Northeast is characterized by a megalopolis that extends from Boston to Washington, D.C." I hardly think that administrative and bureaucratic boundaries need to factor into the decision on which map is best. But when this article talks about the "climate of the Northeast", it needs to take into account what reliable sources on the climate (i.e. the EPA) say the Northeast is. I think the article you pointed to in Business Insider (hardly what I would consider a "reliable source" by the way) merely underscores the need for flexibility in the map to show what is considered part of the Northeast.
Maher-shalal-hashbaz (
talk) 22:39, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Those are NOT reliable sources for defining a cultural or geographical region. The Odum definition of the Northeast that I detailed was to make the point that his definition was used in many government agencies and departments from the 1940's on, and THAT is why that definition shows up even on contemporary maps. I think the original map with an ungraduated pink area should replace the current map.
Dubyavee (
talk) 19:11, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 21:07, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
Is Washington DC really in the Northeast? I get that it's the nation's capital and is more cosmopolitan and upscale compared to the surrounding region, but geographically speaking something doesn't seem right. Having grown up in the NE myself, I've always had the impression that the region ends when New Jersey becomes Delaware. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 04:17, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Please reread the lead section of this article and then reconsider your question. Trainsandotherthings ( talk) 21:53, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
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