Talk:Marilyn_Monroe/GA1 References

GA Review

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Reviewer: Dr. Blofeld ( talk · contribs) 13:38, 15 October 2015 (UTC) reply

Lede

Did she really earn acclaim for Bus Stop as the lede says? I always thought it a terrible movie and I think a lot of critics consider it one of her worst roles. Also Prince and the Showgirl I think is scoffed at by most critics and her performance wasn't really a shining one. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:12, 15 October 2015 (UTC) reply

At least according to Spoto and Churchwell, Bus Stop got great reviews and was also a box office hit. Banner doesn't really mention its reception, though she writes about Logan praising Monroe. As for Prince, I think you may be right, although she did win awards in Europe for it. It's been difficult finding information about its critical reception in European countries (the Olivier article says it was well received?), but I know it flopped in the US. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 13:17, 15 October 2015 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 reply

Yes I think Bus Stop at time of release fared better. Actually in looking it has 79% on Rotten Tomatoes which is a shocker. I'm with James Plath on that one! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:40, 15 October 2015 (UTC) reply

"Her performances in Bus Stop (1956), The Prince and the Showgirl (1957), and Some Like It Hot (1959) earned praise as well as a Golden Globe award and a nomination for a BAFTA" - perhaps reword as "After roles in Bus Stop (1956) and The Prince and the Showgirl (1957), Monroe earned critical acclaim for Some Like It Hot (1959), winning a Golden Globe award and receiving a BAFTA nomination".

I've reworded it, a bit differently from your suggestion though! I've decided to mention only the GG win; the BAFTA nom was for Prince, and she was also nominated for a GG for Bus Stop. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 13:17, 15 October 2015 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 reply

" has also " remove this at top of the third paragraph.

I'll read this through this tomorrow morning and post further comments, cheers.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:41, 15 October 2015 (UTC) reply

Early life

"However, in Monroe's birth certificate, Gladys named Mortensen as the father (although the name was misspelled), probably to avoid the stigma of illegitimacy" -I'd put this in a footnote.

Done. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)–TrueHeartSusie3 reply

" she lived at the Bolenders to care for the infant herself, until longer work shifts forced her to move back to Hollywood in early 1927.[15] She then began visiting her daughter on the weekends and planned on taking her back once she felt more stable.[16] She " -rep of "she"

Not sure if this is enough of an improvement, I'm running out of ideas with these sentences – I already reworded them after Loeba's review. "Gladys was mentally and financially unprepared for a child, and therefore placed Monroe with evangelical Christian foster parents Albert and Ida Bolender in Hawthorne, California soon after the birth. At first, Gladys lived at the Bolenders to care for the infant herself, until longer work shifts forced her to move back to Hollywood in early 1927. She then began visiting her daughter on the weekends and planned on taking her back once she felt more stable. Gladys" Personally, I think now the issue is that I'm repeating "Gladys"... let me know what you think, maybe I just didn't get what you meant? TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)–TrueHeartSusie3 reply

How exactly do you define ""the Oomph Girl""?

I've removed it as I don't think it's that important. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)-TrueHeartSusie3 reply

Modelling

"After leaving Columbia, Monroe became a protégé of Johnny Hyde, vice president of the William Morris Agency." -do we have a date when she left?

Not an exact date, but the contract was due to be renewed in September 1948; I've mentioned this in the previous para, but moved it to this sentence instead.

"He began representing her and their relationship soon became sexual, although she refused his proposals of marriage.[68] To advance her career, he paid for her to have a silicone prosthesis implanted in her jaw and possibly a rhinoplasty, and arranged for her a " -a lot of he and her again

Changed to: "After leaving Columbia in September 1948, Monroe became a protégé of Johnny Hyde, vice president of the William Morris Agency. Hyde began representing her and their relationship soon became sexual, although she refused his proposals of marriage. To advance Monroe's career, he paid for a silicone prosthesis to be implanted in her jaw and possibly for a rhinoplasty, and arranged a bit part in the Marx Brothers film Love Happy (1949)" I've removed the 'for her' because it's probably clear enough without.

Breakthrough

" Four of them –Love Happy, A Ticket to Tomahawk, Right Cross and The Fireball– were unremarkable films in which she had only bit parts, but she also made minor appearances in two critically acclaimed films: John Huston's crime film The Asphalt Jungle and Joseph Mankiewicz's drama All About Eve.[72" -is all that really in that citation?

Yes; Churchwell's book isn't a biography per se, it's a book about the biographies written about Monroe. She does however give a condensed version of her career in these pages. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)-TrueHeartSusie3 reply

"The nude photo scandal ensured that all five films in which Monroe appeared in 1952 became popular with the public.[8" -seems a tad OR, in whose opinion was the scandal the result of commercial success? In that period I'd have thought a lot of women and children would have been put off from seeing it because of it.

But here we have to remember that she wasn't marketed as an actress, but as a 'sexpot', hence the nude photo scandal made her even more attractive to her target audience. She never really appeared in any films which would have been considered appropriate for young audiences. I rechecked the Churchwell ref though, and you're right in that she only talks about the effect of the scandal on three films: Clash By Night, Don't Bother to Knock and We're Not Married. I've changed the sentence to: "Monroe appeared in three commercially successful films in the summer of 1952; according to Sarah Churchwell, the nude photo scandal made filmgoers increasingly interested in her films." The sentence definitely needs tweaking though, but I think it is important to stress the fact that Monroe did not become a star just because of her films, but that off-screen factors (nude photo scandal, appearing in revealing clothes in public events, making risqué statements in interviews, relationship to DiMaggio...) also played a very significant role. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)-TrueHeartSusie3 reply

an attractive secretary- in whose opinion?

Removed 'attractive', as the quote from Churchwell pretty much conveys the same meaning. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)-TrueHeartSusie3 reply

IN places you might add the name of the director before the film for variation in xxx's xxxx etc, only if the director was reasonably notable though.

I think Manckiewitz, Huston and Hawks were the only notable directors she worked with during this time. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)-TrueHeartSusie3 reply

Establishment

"Niagara was one of the most overtly sexual films of her career, " -according to whom? Always best for such statements to say xxx cited Niagara as..

Done. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)-TrueHeartSusie3 reply

"However, its most famous scene is a 30-second long shot of Monroe shown walking from behind with her hips swaying, which was used heavily in the film's marketing.[104] Upon the film's release in January, women's clubs protested against it as immoral.[105] Monroe also " "However" and "also " affect the prose quality here I think, can you find a way around it?

Done. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)-TrueHeartSusie3 reply

I think you already linked Photoplay.

Done. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)-TrueHeartSusie3 reply

"The film included one of the most famous scenes of her career, a performance of "Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend" in a shocking pink dress. " -could use a cite or attribution of it being the most famous.

Will look into this! TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)-TrueHeartSusie3 reply

Conflicts

"In September 1954, Monroe began filming Billy Wilder's comedy The Seven Year Itch, playing a girl who becomes the object of her married neighbor's (Tom Ewell) sexual fantasies. Although the film was shot in Hollywood, the studio decided to generate advance publicity by staging the filming of one scene on Lexington Avenue in New York.[128] In it, Monroe is standing on a subway grate with the air blowing up the skirt of her white dress; it became one of the most famous scenes of her career. The shoot lasted for several hours as the scene was re-taken multiple times, and attracted a crowd of nearly 2,000 spectators, including professional photographers.[128]

While the publicity stunt placed Monroe on the front pages of newspapers all over the world, it also marked the end of her marriage to DiMaggio, who was furious about it.[129] Their union had been troubled from the start. He was jealous and controlling, disliked her working or being more popular than him and resented her wearing of revealing clothes.[130] Spoto and Banner have also asserted that he was physically abusive.[131] After returning to Hollywood, she hired famous defense lawyer Jerry Giesler and announced that she was filing for divorce, citing "grievous mental suffering and anguish", in a press conference on October 5, 1954. [132] The divorce received additional media attention after DiMaggio and his friend Frank Sinatra were sued by a woman into whose apartment they had broken in an attempt to catch Monroe and Schaefer together.[133]

After filming wrapped in November, Monroe began a new battle for control over her career and left Hollywood for the East Coast, where she founded her own production company, Marilyn Monroe Productions (MMP), with photographer Milton Greene – an action that has later been called "instrumental" in the collapse of the studio system.[134][d] 2"

The divorce and relationship really looks awkward here amid the Seven Year Itch discussion. There's too much I think. Why is there nothing about how the film was received or a review of her performance? Much later on I see you say the film did well but I think it lacks concision.

None of the books comment on reviews; in general, Monroe was akin to Megan Fox or Pamela Anderson during this time, the point of her films was to make money. I've understood that the reviews were mostly poor, simply because Monroe was not seen as someone who could or should be taken seriously as an actress. I have mentioned that Itch was a huge box office success though. Will start working on rewording/organizing/condensing! TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:00, 16 October 2015 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 reply

I've reworked this now, let me know what you think!

Critical acclaim

"French Crystal Star awards," -no link, if not is it worth mentioning?

Precursor of the Cesar, linked now.

"Many of the problems stemmed from a conflict between Wilder, who also had a reputation for being difficult, and Monroe on how she should play the role, whose stupidity she disliked" -whose stupidity? The character's or Wilder's? Can you reword it a bit?

" play the character, which she thought was stupid." Is that better? I have a feeling it might not be, all my knowledge of English grammar seems to have vanished!

Public image and reception

This section could use a trim I think, rather a lot.

Which paras in particular? TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:33, 16 October 2015 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 reply

Originally I was thinking as I read it that you'd made a mistake merging in personal life with career but having read it I can see how her ongoing mental/addiction problems go hand in hand with her career and think you've done the right thing. I do think though that the extensive divorce coverage around Seven Year Itch time does affect the focus though. I understand how Monroe is treated in biographies but I do think the article is a little sensational with the emphasis on scandal, her image and her health. I think I'd like to see more on Monroe the actress, the techniques she employed, what critics thought of her acting etc. I get the impression in reading it that we don't take her seriously. I know that's difficult to do for somebody like Monroe though. Overall I think it's a very good effort and should pass GA fairly easily. I do think it needs quite a lot of work still for FA though. In places I think the prose could be more concise and polished, and there is some concern about the heavy use of Spoto, given the massive amount of material written about Monroe which I think others might bring up at FAC. I understand it's the definitive bio and many of the others are junk, but there's plenty of great magazine and newspapers articles which could be used directly to support statements.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:21, 16 October 2015 (UTC) reply

Thank you so much for the review! I wanted to keep her career and private life separate at first as I can really see the benefit in doing that, but they are so interlinked that it would be artificial and lead to a lot of repetition. As for your comment on my focusing on her image etc.; can you give more specific examples? The thing is, scandals were such a major part of Monroe's career that I feel it would be wrong to downplay them; they were an essential part of her career strategy. As for her health – again, her mental health/addiction issues/miscarriages etc. played a large part in her career and private life. I'm open for ideas on how to condense the article, but what I fear is that the effect of Monroe's health issues might be trivialized in the process? There's so much misinformation about her health out there that I think it is important for WP to provide accurate info on this topic.

As for concentrating more on her as an actress – this is problematic, as she wasn't really perceived as a serious actress during her lifetime, and to be honest, I don't think this has changed much. As for her acting philosophies etc., this is not discussed in depth by any of the books I've used, apart from how she depended a lot on her acting coaches, and of course regarded Strasberg as a god-like figure. Maybe I could add more about this? But then again, the question is where this would go, as I don't think there's enough information on her as an actor to form an entirely new section. Maybe I could append it to the section on her public image, it could be renamed? As for reviews, I've understood that most of them just commented on how sexy/lewd/silly she was, she really was not taken very seriously by any of her contemporaries it seems. The books I've used rarely remark on them. My intention was not to make her seem silly; in fact, the reason why I started editing this article was because I wanted it to go beyond the stereotypes and to reflect the current scholarship on her, which very much stresses her agency and tries to show how she was a multifaceted person, not just a "dumb blonde" or a "victim".

As for the prose; I'm afraid I'm going to need more help with this (e.g. specific examples), as I've read the article through so many times that I don't know how to improve it anymore. As for Spoto, to be honest, I don't see this to be different from how we relied a lot on Robinson when writing the article on Chaplin. I'm afraid I will have to be content with GA, because I just don't have the money to buy new books; I rely on libraries for my WP contributions. Which magazines/newspaper articles do you mean? TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 17:33, 16 October 2015 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 reply

Yes, I think you have a point that she was never perceived as a "serious actress". I'm sure there was a lot of very good magazine and newspaper article written about Monroe during her lifetime. Occasionally amid the Spoto refs it would be nice to see a review from the time, or a newspaper report on her health directly rather than relying on Spoto I think. Anyway, none of my concerns with it are stopping it from GA, but I think this needs a lot of discussion before it goes to FA. I think you should open a peer review immediately after this and ask as many people as possible to comment/ look at it. I'll ask a few people myself.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:10, 16 October 2015 (UTC) reply

I thought about this a bit more. I'll start looking for reviews; as for the details about her acting – while I doubt there's any scholar who has looked into her technique beyond her dependence on her coaches, the books I've used do mention things like Monroe coming up with the line "I can be smart when it's important, but most men don't like it." in Gentlemen...? I don't mind the article just being a GA at this stage. I've been working on this since July, and am not sure I want to commit to it for many more weeks. TrueHeartSusie3 ( talk) 18:26, 16 October 2015 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3 reply

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality:

B. MoS compliance:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources:

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:30, 16 October 2015 (UTC) reply