The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. Convincing case for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and that the disambiguation was both unnecessary and awkward enough to warrant an exception from WP:NCROY. -- Hadal ( talk) 04:36, 5 June 2011 (UTC) reply

Lothair II of Lotharingia → Lothair II — So long as it redirects here, there is no point in the awkward disambiguation. Srnec ( talk) 19:55, 29 May 2011 (UTC) reply

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose See WP:NCROY. There are several examples where a monarch is the primary meaning of the name + number combination, which redirects there, but we have retained the disambiguator, e.g. George IV of the United Kingdom, James IV of Scotland, George VII of Georgia. PatGallacher ( talk) 10:39, 30 May 2011 (UTC) reply
• Hmmm. A google books search shows that his common name is simply Lothair II and moving it there would also be in accordance with WP:PRECISION. Both of those links are to the article titles policy, yet that is completely at odds with the subject-specific guideline and consistency is also recommended at the article titles policy (as well as following the guidelines). With the policy in direct contradiction of itself, it would seem that common sense is the way to go. Personally, my common sense is telling me to support the move, as there is no need to have the extra "of Lotharingia" at the end, but I'm still not 100% sure. I'll reflect on this for a bit and make a decision later. Jenks24 ( talk) 15:34, 30 May 2011 (UTC) reply
• Support. Srnec makes a sound case that "of Lotharingia" is undesirable here. Angus McLellan (Talk) 10:27, 31 May 2011 (UTC) reply
• Support. Lotharingia was simply Lothair's share of the Frankish Empire. There were no other rulers of Lotharingia. So it is not necessary treat it as a country under WP:NCROY. The matching names create redundancy; It's like having a title at "Henry of Henryland". Kauffner ( talk) 17:09, 2 June 2011 (UTC) reply
• Oppose There are more than one Lothair II.-- Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy ( talk) 04:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC) reply

• Lothair II redirects here, so the question of primary topic is already decided. Srnec ( talk) 04:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC) reply

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Comment I feel I should point out that the whole issue of pre-emptive disambiguation of monarchs has been chewed over at considerable length, but the consensus seems to be that we should keep it in the absence of some good reason to the contrary. See some discussions on the talk page at WP:NCROY. Some of us are well aware that this policy may conflict with the policy of using the common name. PatGallacher ( talk) 18:02, 30 May 2011 (UTC) reply

I called the current title awkward because (a) no other king is disambiguated by "of Lotharingia" because none need to be, (b) plenty of Lothair's contemporaries and relatives are not preemptively disambiguated and (c) the term Lotharingia comes from this guy's name, thus making the title read like "Lothair II of his very own kingdom". Srnec ( talk) 23:15, 30 May 2011 (UTC) reply

There is more than one Lothair II though, Lothair II (disambiguation). 65.94.44.141 ( talk) 14:24, 31 May 2011 (UTC) reply

I am well aware of that, but this is the primary topic, as the existing redirect shows. Srnec ( talk) 04:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.