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The assertion that Sappho ran a girls' finishing school was debunked in the Sappho article. This should be reworded to reflect current academic opinion (of which I am no expert). Kat.reinhart 03:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The island`s Turkish name should also be mentioned in the beginning part. It is called as Midilli in Turkish.
- Is there a non-chauvinist reason to support this request? Miskin 16:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I think Turkish name should be added. Turkish era occupies a long portion of the history of this island. This is an encyclopedia for providing correct information to people. It’s correct that the island have once had a different official name. Its Turkish name is an indispensable part of the history of this island. It is the same reason why many place names in Turkey and in other places in the Mediterranean basin are also given in their Greek equivalents as the Hellenistic influence is the part of their history. Let’s don’t make this an arena for nationalistic arguments. Let’s give all the available information to the readers. I can’t see any reason why the Turkish name should be hidden.( Hakankaan 09:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC))
I don't see a reason why the Greek name is not mentioned in the head of any Turkish cities. Rebognise the Armenian and Pontic genocide, add the Greek name in the head of Instanbul, Izmir, Ankara, Trabzon and all the Greek cities whose original names were Greek (which is not the case with Lesbos), and I promise you to add the Turkish name in Athens. Regards. Miskin 16:53, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
If you want to be fair,add the Greek name to any city on aegean coast.I checked Izmir ( Σμύρνη ) and had only the turkish name.Beside, and most important why is there the turkish flag at the end of the articles of Greek islands? There is no city or place in turkey that refers to Greece with a flag as is done at all the Greek islands.Again if you want to be fair, remove the turkish flag from every Greek island. My next action will be to report this insult so all people will learn how objective wikipedia is... sstakis —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sstakis ( talk • contribs) 16:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Please stop POV pushing and vandalizing Aegean Sea/Island relatd pages. El Greco ( talk · contribs) 18:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- The issue of foreign names was discussed extensively last year, and the prevailing opinion was that it was better to keep them. As for the flags, they were apparently put into the navigation box template because the Aegean borders on both countries. However, few Turkey-related articles (coastal towns, islets etc.) were finally put into the box, so it's now a little bit imbalanced. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Every other city, location name in Wikipedia also includes historic names too. Some are even in languages no one has heard of. In fact, Greeks and Armenians have been rather diligent about this. Midilli was the official name for 450 years after all, maps and books were published with it. The only reason for NOT including it would be a cheuvenistic one it seems, totally against the sipirit of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.77.168.53 ( talk) 06:24, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Rather "victorian" was the interpretation, that only "platonic" love was object in the poems. While there are no sex scenes or direct references to sex understood nowadays, the invocation of Aphordite for example is not a suitable one for mere "platonic" love. Open to debate is, wether there literary "I" of the poems is female or male; there is not much saved of her poems, and from what is left, there is not a single participle or similar word, which gives clue to the sex of the speaker, which is not contested in modern science. So whereas someone would to be have undecicded just based on what is saved from the literary work, ancient reception already point out that she was a "lesbian" (in the modern sense of course), or would search for different interpretations as to "defend her". This is not to mean though she didnt have a husband. antiphon-- 84.175.78.139 12:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Alexander the Great (Greek: Αλέξανδρος ο Μέγας or Μέγας Aλέξανδρος,[1] Megas Alexandros; July 20 356 BC – June 10 323 BC),[2][3] also known as Alexander III and Alexander the Macedonian, was an ancient Greek[4][5] king (basileus) of Macedon (336–323 BC). He was one of the most successful military commanders in history, and was undefeated in battle. By the time of his death, he had conquered most of the world known to the ancient Greeks.
Alexander assumed the kingship of Macedon following the death of his father Philip II of Macedon. Philip had united most of the city-states of mainland Greece under Macedonian rule (the so-called League of Corinth). After reconfirming Macedonian hegemony by quashing a rebellion of southern Greek city-states, and staging a short but bloody excursion against Macedon's northern neighbors, Alexander set out east against the Achaemenid Persian Empire, which he defeated and overthrew. His conquests including Anatolia, Syria, Phoenicia, Judea, Gaza, Egypt, Bactria, and Mesopotamia, and extended the boundaries of his own empire as far as Punjab, India.
Prior to his death, Alexander had already made plans for military and mercantile expansions into the Arabian peninsula, after which he was to turn his armies to the west (Carthage, Rome, and the Iberian Peninsula). His original vision had been to the east, though, to the ends of the world and the Great Outer Sea, as described by his boyhood tutor Aristotle.
Alexander integrated many foreigners into his army, leading some scholars to credit him with a "policy of fusion." He also encouraged marriages between his soldiers and foreigners; he himself went on to marry two foreign princesses.
Alexander died after twelve years of constant military campaigning, possibly as a result of malaria, poisoning, typhoid fever, viral encephalitis or the consequences of alcoholism.[2][6] His legacy and conquests lived on long after him, and ushered in centuries of Greek settlement and cultural influence over distant areas. This period is known as the Hellenistic Age, and featured a combination of Greek, Middle Eastern and Indian culture. Alexander himself was featured prominently in the history and myth of both Greek and non-Greek cultures. His exploits inspired a literary tradition in which he appeared as a legendary hero in the tradition of Achilles.
The geology section was wholesale cut/pasted from here, a copyrighted site, with no attribution or record of permission. I removed.
Here's the preserved text: == Geology of Lesvos Island == The [[geology]] of Lesvos Isl. has been described by [[Hecht]] ([[1971]], [[1974]], [[1975]]), [[Pe-Piper]] ([[1978]]), [[Katsikatsos]] et al. ([[1982]], [[1986]]). Hecht ([[1971]],[[1974]]) presented the [[geological map]] of the island (1: 50.000 [[scale (ratio)|scale]]). [[Lesvos]] [[island]] belongs to the [[Pelagon]]ian geotectonic [[zone]] (Mountrakis 1983). According to the published data and our survey, the geological structure of Lesvos island consists of the following rock-units: * An [[autochthonous]] unit of [[Permo-Triassic]] age, including [[schists]], [[quartzites]], metasandstones, [[phyllite]]s and [[intercalation]] of [[marbles]] and [[crystalline]] [[carbonates]]. These [[Rock (geology)|rock]]s are widely extended at the South-East part of the island, while in the North-West part they have a rather small extension. * An [[ophiolitic]] [[nape]], comprising basic and ultrabasic rocks and associated deep-sea fine-grained [[sediments]], as well as [[metamorphic]] rocks, [[amphibolites]] and [[amphibole]] [[schists]], [[metabasites]] and [[metasediments]], parts of the sole, overthrusting the metamorphic basement. All these [[alpidic]] and pre-alpidic rocks were covered later by post-[[alpine]] [[volcanic rock]]s and [[Neogene]] [[marine]] and [[lacustrine]] [[deposit]]s such as whitish [[marl]]s, marly [[limestone]], [[silts]] and [[sandstone]], as well as [[Tertiary]] deposits. The Neogene volcanic rocks, dominate the central and western part of the island. [[Lesvos]] is part of a belt of late [[Oligocene]] - middle [[Miocene]] calc-alcaline to [[shoshonitic]] [[volcanism]] of the northern and central [[Aegean Sea]] and western [[Anatolia]]. In the central part of the island there is a series of [[volcanic centre]]s, situated along a SW-NE direction. Several volcanic rock units can be distinguished. The oldest [[igneous]] rocks are [[andesites]] of the Lower [[Lava]] unit, dated by Borsi et. al. ([[1972]]) as 18.0 m.y. The [[Acid]] volcanics unit overlies the former, comprising the [[Sigri]] [[pyroclastics]], [[ignimbrite]] and [[ryolite]] [[domes]]. Sigri pyroclastics are connected with the development of the [[Petrified Forest of Lesvos]]. The [[Skoutaros]] Lava unit, consisting of [[basalt]] and andesite, overlies the acid volcanics. The [[volcanic activity]] was continuous into the [[Sikaminea]] unit of andesites, [[dacite]]s and [[rhyolitic]] [[pyroclastics]]. The younger volcanics, [[Eressos]] andesitic dykes, dated by Pe-Piper ([[1978]]) at 16.2 m.y., are widespread in western [[Lesvos]]. The last volcanic manifestation took place later with the local basaltic-shoshonitic lavas of eastern [[Lesvos]], in [[Mytilene]] area, around 11 m.y. ago (Pe-Piper, [[1978]]). The intense volcanic activity in the area resulted in a large number of active [[surface]] thermal [[manifestation]]s (hot springs, various geothermal fields, etc). [[Kinematic]] analysis carried out in [[Lesvos]] showed that several successive [[tectonic]] events took place during [[Cainozoic]]. The neotectonic stress pattern in the area was determined by [[quantitative method]]s, using tectonic striations and other kinematic indicators. Taking into account published results of regional neotectonic studies in the North [[Aegean]] (Mercier et al. [[1989]], [[Pavlides]] et al. [[1990]]) as well as local studies ([[Dotsica]] et al. [[1994]]) we conclude that [[Lesvos]] suffered at least three post-volcanic tectonic events since [[Miocene]]. The first one produced E-W to ENE-WSW trending [[sinistral]] strike-slip faults in Late [[Miocene]]. The second during [[Pliocene]], caused NW-SE trending normal faults and NNE-SSW trending sinistral strike-slip faults. Finally during [[Pleistocene]] the [[orientation]] of the strain [[ellipsoid]] changed and an extentional event in the N-S direction took place. It produced E-W trending normal faults and the reactivation of the pre-existing structures. This tectonic regime seems to be still active in the area ([[Papazachos]] et al. [[1990]]).
This is a question that has been bugging me for over a week. There's a question on my local radio station that no one has gotten right in over a week. The question is: The inhabitants of the Greek island of Lesbos are specifically known as...? I came here looking for the answer and you've let me down!! User:Naysie
- The usual answer is "Lesbosians" White 720 14:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Merge - As it is the Gera Villages article is not very big or notable on its own. JohnnyMrNinja 08:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Why are some names of the Aegean Islands also cited in Turkish? I understand that names of places are supposed to be written first in the English language, and then in the native language. I also understand that it is perfectly acceptable (in fact, recommended) to cite past or alternative names of a place in the section about the history of said place. But why put them in the introductory section about the name itself ? If the rule about English & native is not strictly followed, then POVs and political controversies are sure to make their appearance. - The Gnome ( talk) 08:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Would anybody mind if we moved this page back to Lesbos Island (and related pages too), where it's been for some ages? Sorry Fallacia for undoing your work, but this seems to be the established name in English, as per our policy at WP:USEENGLISH. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
- Lesbos Island? Established English? I can't think of a single Greek island that normally takes 'Island' after it, and Lesbos is the same. The article should be moved from Lesbos Island to Lesbos, surely. Q·L· 1968 ☿ 21:57, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
- For the record, I've never once heard "Lesbos Island" in English, either in the context of ancient history, modern history, or alternative sexuality. It's always either Lesbos or the affected-antique "Isle of Lesbos". If there's any further consideration of a move, I'd oppose. Elmo iscariot ( talk) 17:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm wondering if anyone knows of the demonym that is commonly used for the people of Lesbos. Suggestions in any language would help. Mexicomida ( talk) 14:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Lesbian. No joke, this is what they are actually called. 82.1.157.16 ( talk) 17:22, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Lesbians suing lesbians over the use of the term "lesbian"! 204.52.215.107 ( talk) 15:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, yes it was bound to happen. But is it relevant (to the island of Lesbos)? Maybe it would be better mentioned in the Lesbian article.-- TomDæmon ( talk) 03:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
- no one is gonna stop the rest of the world from using it for the LGBT meaning, but hasn't there been any interest locally in the OTHER direction -- islanders shifting to a new demonym themselves? "lesbonian", "lesbonese", anything?
- if they really resent the dual meaning so much, i would think at least SOME of the residents would have pushed for that at some point. 198.147.225.20 ( talk) 03:13, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
I think the stress mark in the Greek alphabet name should be on the third syllable (Polichnítos), as in the spelling used in the Greek language Wikipedia. I was in Lesbos a few days ago and noticed that the name was Políchnitos on the road maps, and Polichnítos on the road signs. A local told me that the road signs were correct. Andrea Domenici 131.114.58.49 ( talk) 15:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
- Probably correct, as the municipality website has "Πολιχνίτος" too [1]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:07, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
This has always bugged me -- the article introduces the island as "Lesbos (Greek: Λέσβος also transliterated Lesvos..." Coming from a Greek family from Lesvos, I can safely say I've never heard anyone pronounce it with a "b" sound. Although the Greek β does look like a B, it is pronounced in Greek as "v". I don't know if there's some reason behind this, but it is no doubt confusing to non-Greek speakers. Even the official website spells it in the URL with a v -- www.lesvos.gr Let me know if I'm bringing up an old argument. 122.108.95.167 ( talk) 16:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. The version with "b" is the conventional name in English (just as we say "Athens", not "Athina", and just as you say "Londhino", not "London"). Like most Western European versions of Greek placenames it is based on the Ancient Greek version, probably filtered through Latin and other western languages. In Ancient Greek, the beta was in fact still pronounced as b. We have some conventions about Greek names outlined at WP:GREEK. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:43, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
- Though we here are speculative editors on the question of pronounciation, the conventional spelling of Lesvos in English and other European languages is with a 'b', Lesbos, Lesbo, etc... Regarding the pronounciation of ancient Greek, academic opinions vary especially owing to dialectic variations. The Erasmic pronounciation is just that, Erasmic, and was introduced by Erasmus; it became the standard in some countries for the teaching of ancient Greek.
Politis (
talk) 09:20, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm actually not talking about whatever strawman model is meant by "Erasmic pronunciation" (it's a strawman because none of the major current models of teaching pronunciations in European countries actually matches that of Erasmus). I'm talking about modern linguistic reconstruction, and there is absolutely no difference in academic opinion about the fact that beta was originally /b/. The only thing that is debated is when exactly (and when in which dialects) the change to [β] > [v] happened; if I remember correctly, it was at some time during the Roman era for most dialects. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:58, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- Though we here are speculative editors on the question of pronounciation, the conventional spelling of Lesvos in English and other European languages is with a 'b', Lesbos, Lesbo, etc... Regarding the pronounciation of ancient Greek, academic opinions vary especially owing to dialectic variations. The Erasmic pronounciation is just that, Erasmic, and was introduced by Erasmus; it became the standard in some countries for the teaching of ancient Greek.
Politis (
talk) 09:20, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks a bunch for the background. I was confused at first, but having read WP:GREEK, it actually makes sense. Thanks again. 122.108.95.167 ( talk) 13:15, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Pronunciations entirely notwithstanding, what about the fact that the Roman/English letter b IS, in a sense, the very same letter as beta? Different languages in western Europe have all kinds of radical differences in their pronunciations of the same consonants, and we don't (anymore) go around changing up the spellings of each others' names/words to accurately match the pronunciations in our own languages. Nowadays, that is considered offensive. Yet why do we that with Greek? Granted, they use a different alphabet; on the other hand, the vast majority of the letters (including β) have a one-to-one correspondence with Roman Keye letters. And the most of the ones that don't - θ, φ, χ, ψ - have digraphs that correspond to that are so ubiquitous they've almost become nativised. The only Greek letter that doesn't always transliterate cleanly is upsilon/ypsilon. (which, btw, is the ancestor of Roman v, not beta). Upsilon can directly correspond with Roman Y, U, or V (the latter two of which were not even fully regarded as distinct letters until the last couple centuries). Anyway, I've gone off on a tangent, so I'll stop. But case in point: if you spell it Lesvos, that gives the impression that the Greek alphabet spelling is Λεσνος. Absolutely nobody would plausibly think that Lesbos is a transliteration of Λεσμπος. (I think is how modern Greeks denote their own ancient β sound?). Is that a satisfactory reason? Firejuggler86 ( talk) 20:06, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't see the reason for removing Midilli. As long as I know, there is no irredentist movement toward this island. But I can frequently find this alternative name in English books. And see Edirne, Imbros etc. Takabeg ( talk) 05:59, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Not a single Turk lives on the island.
- There was never a large Turkish population on the island.
- "Midilii" is practically never used by English language sources.
- Thus, none of the reasons given in WP:NCGN for listing the Turkish name in the lede apply here. I can agree to including it in the history section, but that's about it. Athenean ( talk) 06:06, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think we have not to be based on populations, but on culture. Since many English books refer this alternative name, we can write it. Your theory based on population may cause the nationalism/ irredentism-oriented Wikipedia. Population isn't important. In Turkish Wikipedia, for the place names in Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, Macedonia etc, some regional nationalist users prefer to old Ottoman names that most of all users never heard and even the Turkish officials don't use in official documents. Such users' excuse is also "poppulation" (including historical one). I think that we have to decide in accordance with the trend in English sourses in English Wikipedia. In short, not by population but English sources. In factm, I like alternative names personally. I accept their varieties as their richness. Constantinople-Konstantinopolis-Poli- Istanbul etc, Hadrianopolis-Adrianopole-Adrianoupolis-Ordin- Edirne etc. However, if there was such rule you mentioned, we have to remove all of them equally and neutrally. At first please remove Ανδριανούπολις from Edirne and transfer to appropreate section (if any) of the article. Thank you. Takabeg ( talk) 06:26, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- No, English books do not use the Turkish name frequently [2] (compare to "Lesbos" [3]). That may be your impression, but it is a wrong impression. You haven't provided any evidence to back it up, either. Lesbos has 30 times more hits. Mytilene has 127k hits [4], 10 times as many as "Midilii". Virtually all English language sources use the Greek names (Lesbos and Mytilene). Adrianople on the other hand, is frequently mentioned by its Greek name (Adrianople) in English language sources ( [5], compared to "Edirne" [6]). "Adrianople" occurs twice as frequently as "Edirne". Adrianople also had a significant Greek community in the past. On the other hand, there were never any significant number of Turks on Lesbos. You may not agree with this being a reason for including the alternate name, but there is a wikipedia policy about names in the lede, it is called WP:NCGN, and you need to read it and understand it. Athenean ( talk) 06:38, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Adrianopolis + Edirne -Llc 342 results
- Midilli + Lesbos -Llc 231 results
I think both case alternative names are used frequently. For me there is no problem and there is no reason for removing alternative names.
But if you want and if "Adrianople also had a significant Greek community in the past", as you said, you can put Greek: Ανδριανούπολις in histrical section of the article Edirne. Thank you. Takabeg ( talk) 06:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- I reverted your edit per WP:NCGN. A Macedonian, a Greek. ( talk) 06:54, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) "Adrianople" get more hits on Google books than "Edirne" (the English version of the city's Greek name is "Adrianople", not "Adrianopolis"). On the other hand, Lesbos and Mytilene are used hundreds of times more frequently than "Midilii", which is almost never used. So, stop comparing apples and oranges. These are two very different cases. Athenean ( talk) 06:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
The introduction says (or said) that Jacques Coeur briefly recaptured Lesbos two decades after the Ottomans conquered it in 1462. Since Coeur died in 1456, this seems unlikely. I'm going to remove that clause until someone provides some evidence for it. 209.179.114.85 ( talk) 20:20, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
there should be a turkish translation seeing as turkish was the language of the ottoman empire and Lesbos was a part of it. there is a turkish community making up 20 percent of the population I believe.--XELO 00:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
You have an advertisement: ouzo Plomari (Isidoros Arvanitis, is the company, witch has been bought by foreigners) is not right, for 3 reasons: 1) You should put a more representative trademark; one that sells more between locals in Lesbos, or perhaps in the town of Plomari. 2) As long as you mention violation of copyrights, we have to say that in the town of Plomari ouzo is produced by at least other three small manufactures. Moreover here in Lesbos we think that the ouzos of Plomari have special characteristics (less sweet, for example). 3) We drink much ouzo in Lesbos. I don't see anyone drinking that particular ouzo because of its very poor quality (once I had a bad headache in the morning, after drinking it). You might ask locals or perhaps visitors of the island. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pan-mos ( talk • contribs) 13:40, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
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missing: European migrant crisis
since spring 2015, several hundreds of migrants (at the beginning mainly people from Syria / Refugees of the Syrian Civil War came to Lesbos every day. They were registrated (maybe not all of them) and then allowed to take a ferry to Piraeus. Boat owners from Turkey (i.e. fisherman) brought them to Lesos (or to another island, i.a. Kos, laying near the Turkish coast). In September 2015, the ferry capacity was too small; up to around 11.000 people waited in Lesbos to get a place on the ferry. Then, the 'Balkanroute' was restricted (and later almost stopped), and a EU-Turkey deal was made. Thus, the numbner of people arriving in Lesbos fell.
I' am no native speaker and would be glad if someone could bring this into the article :-) -- Neun-x ( talk) 20:20, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
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Hi! As of 25.12.2017 the linked Offical website seems to be hacked. It redirects to http://www.mytilene.gr/ where there is a turkish flag and some suspicious text. It is very disappointing but I don't know it should be mentioned here at all or not.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.21.56.102 ( talk) 22:43, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
As of 26.12.2020 the website mentioned, http://www.mytilene.gr/, is showing correctly in Greek as the official site of the Dimos Mitilini (local government of Lesvos). No sign of it having been hacked by wayward Turkish revanchist elements! StefanosPavlos ( talk) 11:00, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
It is customary in Wikipedia to include known names, sometimes even historic names of a place in the beginning of the article. This is especially true in the Old World, where many civilizations have left their mark in so many places. For some reason there is an objection to including name of the island in Turkish in the paragraph about the name of the island. In fact, I had found the article by typing "Midilli". One can look up so many islands and cities in the region to find their names, many times historical, in multiple languages properly mentioned, such as Corsica, Cyprus, Izmir, Istanbul etc.. Since it is neither wrong or even inappropriate to include the Turkish name, the official name for 400 years and still in current use, in the list of names of the place, I would like the editor who keeps reverting to explain and discuss. Now that is the norm and a requirement. Murat ( talk) 16:45, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
- 1) This is a Greek island, not a Turkish island, 2) This is the English wikipedia, not the Turkish wikipedia, and "Midilli" is practically never used by English speakers and English-language sources, 3) there is no significant Turkish population on the island, so 4) the Turkish name in the first line of the article would be
WP:UNDUE. Please familiarize yourself with
WP:NCGN and don't make inane arguments of the type
I found the article by typing Midilli
. Thank you, Khirurg ( talk) 18:41, 16 May 2019 (UTC)- So what I am understanding from your argument above is that there is nothing wrong with informing the reader about common or historic names of a place, it clearly does not violate any policy as shown by many examples I have highlighted. Midilli being a name used for centuries, and still used by many in the World, seems very very relevant and "due". Only real argument you seem to have is that it is a Turkish name. So it is a Greek vs Turkish thing? Just a personal preference on behalf of one editor? Do I really need to list the countless Wikipedia rules you are violating then? In summary, I fail to see a valid argument in above. Please refrain from reverting again, or take it to arbitration. Thank you. Murat ( talk) 20:30, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is mostly administered by biased editors. No need to look for fairness here. All eastern and southeastern cities of Turkey include the Armenian, Assyrian and Kurdish names at the head of each article.
Just shows Turks are more open-minded and tolerant than Turkophobes and racists, to say the least.786wave ( talk) 20:11, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is mostly administered by biased editors. No need to look for fairness here. All eastern and southeastern cities of Turkey include the Armenian, Assyrian and Kurdish names at the head of each article.
- You can accuse people as being racist towards Turks as much as you want. Although this is a discussion from two years ago, Khirurg's points are all still relevant, along with the fact that no other Greek island pages include Turkish names. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 00:17, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Therealscorp1an, Please refer to WP:NCGN before removing alternative relevant foreign names on articles. The English Wikipedia contains relevant foreign names to locations; ″Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted.″. The guidelines do not require a "significant Turkish population" to insert the frequently used and historically relevant Turkish name. Also WP:OTHERSTUFF does not constitute removing relevant names. DriedGrape ( talk) 00:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Show me those 10% of sources then? - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 00:23, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- I have highlighted the section constituing the inclusion of the Turkish by making it bold but doesn't seem to be enough. Or maybe it's that I didn't bold the word "or". Since the island has been inhabited by Turkish people referring to the island with its Turkish name for a long period of time; from 1462 to 1912 specifically, and that name is still the common name among the same people who used to inhabit that island, the name Midilli needs to be included here. I do not wish to have to go to a noticeboard over enforcement of such minuscule Wiki rules. Also, I will thank you to stop mass reverting my edits of similiar nature.
DriedGrape (
talk) 00:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Pinging
Khirurg as well to submit valid reasons to not abide by given guidelines instead of constant reverting.
DriedGrape (
talk) 01:06, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well following what you've said, why isn't the Greek name for Turkey mentioned in the lead of the
Turkey page? -
Therealscorp1an (
talk) 01:24, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Again, WP:OTHERSTUFF, do read the wikilinks I refer to instead of arguing the same invalid points. DriedGrape ( talk) 01:38, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well following what you've said, why isn't the Greek name for Turkey mentioned in the lead of the
Turkey page? -
Therealscorp1an (
talk) 01:24, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Pinging
Khirurg as well to submit valid reasons to not abide by given guidelines instead of constant reverting.
DriedGrape (
talk) 01:06, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- I have highlighted the section constituing the inclusion of the Turkish by making it bold but doesn't seem to be enough. Or maybe it's that I didn't bold the word "or". Since the island has been inhabited by Turkish people referring to the island with its Turkish name for a long period of time; from 1462 to 1912 specifically, and that name is still the common name among the same people who used to inhabit that island, the name Midilli needs to be included here. I do not wish to have to go to a noticeboard over enforcement of such minuscule Wiki rules. Also, I will thank you to stop mass reverting my edits of similiar nature.
DriedGrape (
talk) 00:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Midilli is a proper name, in fact, still in use. Do not delete without a good reason, or consensus. Your further reversals here will constitute edit warring. Let us respect other knowledgeable editors. Historical and other names in other languages, especially if in current use, belong here. Common practice and norm.
Murat (
talk) 20:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, there. I really don't want to fight about this. A consensus was already formed about this. Midilli should not be in the page. You say people still use the name, but which people? Only Turks? It's the English Wikipedia and it is Lesbos in English. It's like saying we include Greece's Latin name in the Greece page because the Romans occupied it for a few centuries. Or the Greek name in the Turkish page. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 22:33, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
-
MOS:LEADLANG says:
- If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses. [my emphasis]
- Thus the Greek name is mentioned in parentheses in this article. Other historical and foreign names don't belong in the lead, but in the "Names" or "History" section. This is not specific to this page, but is the general practice across Wikipedia; see Bursa (Προῦσα), Edirne (Ἁδριανούπολις), etc.
- That said, it is certainly important to include historical names for places in Wikipedia, and I have worked on making sure that Greek names of places that are now in Turkey are mentioned, and equally that the Ottoman Turkish names of places that are now in Greece are mentioned.
- Sure enough, this article does in fact already mention the Ottoman name Midilli/مدللى in the History section, which is a reasonable place to mention it. -- Macrakis ( talk) 23:10, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
-
MOS:LEADLANG says:
- I can not add more to what a previous informed editor stated: "Please refer to WP:NCGN before removing alternative relevant foreign names on articles. The English Wikipedia contains relevant foreign names to locations; ″Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted.″. The guidelines do not require a "significant Turkish population" to insert the frequently used and historically relevant Turkish name. Also WP:OTHERSTUFF does not constitute removing relevant names."
- Midilli is not just a name 80M people use, but also the official name for over 400 years. It is clear you allergic to all things Turkish but that does not give you the privilege to alter and delete at will. Feel free to correct mistakes, but an individual does not have editorial rights on any page. This is the norm in countless other articles and I can provide countless examples if necessary. Let us not take this further on such a trivial matter. Murat ( talk) 19:15, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Discussing editorial decisions on Talk pages is fine. But personal attacks and edit warring are not. -- Macrakis ( talk) 20:24, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- I don't want to fight, but you are the one edit warring in this instance, considering a consensus was already made 2 years ago. This discussion has showed that 2 editors think "Midilli" should stay in and 4 editors don't (I didn't include User:768wave because they didn't really contribute and just came here to be rude). Also, following your points, Greece controlled Turkey since the ancient times, so let's add the Greek name to the Turkey page's lede, shall we? Yeah, no. It's exactly the same situation here. You also mention at least 10% of sources in the page. Which 10% of sources? Show me and then we'll believe it. Please don't accuse us of being Turkophobes and please refrain from edit warring. Have a good day. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 20:59, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Actually there was no consensus and I just happened to come back to this article. Otherwise we would not be discussing it. Your argument sounds completely nationalistic and opinion based. You seem to be stating a preference. I am simply stating the obvious. I did not see where you point out to a factual mistake. Myself and other editors repeatedly point out to the established norm in these articles, and your argument can be summed up as: "but it is a Greek island". That was and is not the point. In fact, most Turkish city articles contain in the lede not just Greek names, but Kurdish, Armenian and others as well if they exist. Which is how it should be. Let us spend our energy on making it a better article. Murat ( talk) 21:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
I have come back to this article after a long hiatus, and see that the historic and currently used name of the Midilli is not even in the lead. Current naming convention WP:PLACE certainly calls for it. Certainly while the common English name, Lesbos, is the most widely used and appropriate for the article name, Midilli is not just a historic name but also still used by millions. I went thru all of the arguments above again, and do not see any grounds for objecting to including the other widely name in the lead as it has been done for countless other locations in the World. It is where it belongs first.
- Okay, first of all, Midili is only used by Turks and was a name used by Turks during Turkish occupation. Why isn't the Greek name in the lead of Izmir, a historically Greek city (not a Greek-occupied city, unlike Lesbos). Why isn't the Mandarin name for Australia in the lead of the Australian article since Chinese people are the second largest ethnicity in the country? And also, I might add, I notice that when you do write Midilli in the lead, you use the modern Turkish language, not the old Ottoman Turkish which was used at the time and used the Arabic alphabet? Now, as a comparison, Googling "Midilli" gives 24 million results, the majority of which are either Turkish websites or websites explaining the history of the island, with article names quoting "Lesbos". When using an advanced Google search to show results with ONLY "Midilli", there are only five million results, many not even reliable news articles, just Turkish photos and social media accounts. Googling "Lesbos" and "Lesvos" gives 88 million results. Advance Google searching it without "Midilli" still gives a high number of 87 million. This means that only 5% of results on Google (many not even English I might add) use Midilli, not Lesvos/Lesbos. WP:PLACE states that a name is alternative if used by over 10% of sources. Reliable sources. We shouldn't even be responding to these arguments anymore because it is just ridiculous. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 23:16, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Hey Therealscorp1an how are you!
I see that you are interested in Lesvos. I would like to search and add about Arvanites and Albanians native to the Island. You might know that the great and famous Ouzo of Plomari is from Isidoros Arvanitis. There is also a "O Vasilis o Arvanitis" by Stratis Myrivilis. Moreover I see that Ottoman documents mention a village in the Island as the Albanian village. Also the documents of settlement of some of Muslim refugees from the Island have Arnavut infront of their names. Is there any thing that you know or be interested in?
Regards,
Utku Utku Öziz ( talk) 15:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- Hi, there. Thanks for being so kind. I am well, how are you? Sadly, I do not have much information on any Muslim population, since they are such a minority and not ethnically Greek (and most of them left during the population exchange), and Muslim refugees do not really count as residents (with any information in the migrant crisis section of the article). I find the Albanian village source interesting and I think that it should be included in the demographics section of the article; it sounds like a cool fact! Sadly, though, I do not know much more. In the near future, I am wanting to expand the modern history era in the article, including information about World War II, Turkey's current illegal invasion of Greek airspace, etc.. Anyways, I hope you have a great day and thank you for reaching out! -
Therealscorp1an (
talk) 21:58, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- In
this short academic paper the author says:
There were not, to my knowledge any Arvanites on Lesvos in the early 20th century; but the name reminds us that the state of Ellas that emerged after 1820 was far from monolingually Greek, and that speakers of Arvanitika, Vlach, and Slavic were active participants in the Revolution.
So it looks like any Albanian village of Lesbos would have lost its Albanian character before the island became part of Greece in 1912. -- T*U ( talk) 09:17, 22 December 2022 (UTC)- Ah, interesting. Thanks for contributing and good find with that source. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 21:04, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- In
this short academic paper the author says:
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