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She isn't queer/LGBT or anything. Straight as a ruler, for all that the WP article on her has to say. I question what she's doing in a list of LGBT musicians. Her song "I Kissed a Girl" was apparently just gay for pay.
- Well it was on the 2010s in music article that is why I added her in. I'm not highly educated in this subject. AJona1992 ( talk) 05:41, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Highlighting LGBT music from only the past decade obscures the achievements of previous decades, like Jill Sobule (who sang the original " I Kissed a Girl"), Indigo Girls, Melissa Etheridge, and Cris Williamson, to name a few examples of musicians who address LGBT themes in their lyrics as well as being queer themselves. Going back to Ma Rainey and " Prove It on Me Blues" in 1928. Johanna-Hypatia ( talk) 02:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well can you put that information in? I started the article based on what was given in the 2010s in music article. I'm not highly educated in LGBT-related music. AJona1992 ( talk) 05:41, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Gay cover album reference on LGBT music page is being deleted by an editor with no understanding of it's relevance to the gay community and I am unable to maintain this entry without assistance
NOTE: Conversation moved from Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies upon request. Taurusthecat ( talk) 23:03, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
I need some help. Before I continue, I will disclose that I am the artist in question. Ok, I went to the LGBT music page and saw that it was pretty empty, there is not much on it, references to some people but little in the way of any real information and on the talk page, the person who created the page even stated that they did not have much knowledge of LGBT music. All up the page is pretty empty and anyone searching for answers on LGBT music on Wikipedia will be pretty disappointed with what they find, but more importantly they will get the impression that not much has been done or is around and this is just not the case. To help rectify this and to make a contribution to the page I added a section on an album I released back in 2008, it was produced and released because at the time (and for the 10 years before when I had first decided to make it) there was pretty-much nothing available mainstream for gay people to listen to unless it was dance music in a club, you never heard a gay song on a mainstream radio show for instance and I was angry that many songs which have been around for decades and which have male pronouns in them were only ever sung by female singers and that when listened to the guy had to translate in his head to a guy's voice or just have a girl singing a love song to him which is ridiculous when you are a gay man. I took 13 well-known classic songs, all with male pronouns in the lyrics and just sang them with a deep male voice. I released the album in 2008, it was played on JOY FM (gay FM radio station) here in Melbourne on several different radio shows, some songs received airplay on American internet radio shows also, and one song was even nominated for a 2009 OUTmusic award for best international song. The CD is now in the collection of the National Library of Australia and I have also done my very best as an independent operator to make sure it was available for the gay population to find in many and varied stores online. It never made any money, that was not the point of it, it was purely to right a wrong against gay people I had seen in place for decades, so I made it on a social justice basis. There is ample evidence out there to show that the album was released in 2008, there are still a couple of articles and interviews online about it, it's in several library resources online showing the release date and there are records online of one track from it being nominated for the OUTmusic award which proves un-reservedly that it was made by a gay person for a gay market (otherwise it could not have been included in the awards). All this is not in question and on the public record. Anyway, I wanted people doing research on these old songs (some of them are from the 1920's) to know that they had been covered by a gay man for a gay audience, so a couple of years ago I went to each page that existed for each song and in the "covers" section I put a simple reference to the album and artist name so that whoever reading through the covers would realize that this song has been covered as a gay track back in 2008. There were many other covers included at the time on all these tracks, some had links to the artist's Wikipedia page, many did not. Recently though, an editor has taken it upon himself to 'clean-up' many of the songs, citing that the cover versions are not 'notable' and he removed all entries relating to the tracks I put in. I reverted the edits a couple of times but the editor just kept changing them back and threatened me with a ban if I continued. All he was citing was that the artist 'Wilshier' is not notable enough to have a reference to anything on Wikipedia, and said that Wilshier had to have a Wikipedia page of his own in order to qualify to have these tracks mentioned which is incorrect, as many people mentioned on Wikipedia do not have pages and never will, in any case it is not the artist who is the point of these entries, it is the fact these songs were recorded and released back in 2008 in a mainstream way specifically for a gay audience, this is significant and important for our gay history and needs to be available for people to know when they are doing gay social studies research. The fact that there was really nothing else around in the way of normal gay music back in 2008 (these songs are not political, not sexual and not ghetto, they are just normal songs which straight people have enjoyed for decades, nothing else was around like that for gay people at the time) means that this release is MORE notable, not less, and that at the time something was made and released publicly which had significance for the gay community. This needs to be recorded on the Wikipedia LGBT area. So after the entries were deleted by this editor I went to the LGBT page (which did not even exist at the time the album came out by the way, gay music was still invisible in mainstream media then,) and saw how empty the page was and decided to make an entry about the album being released in 2008 there, it did fit perfectly with what the page was trying to say. Now this editor has started a personal vendetta against me, even though he doesn't know I am actually the artist, he does think I am connected to the artist and am trying to promote which is not true. He has now deleted the section I included on the LGBT page as well, I might say that I have tried to discuss this with the editor in question User:Binksternet but he refuses to respond to the relevance of the gay issues of these tracks being released and is making it all about the fact the the artist has not had a chart success a biography written or his own Wikipedia page. These things would only constitute that the artist was a probable self-promoter and it is not about the artist anyway, it is ALL about the relevance that a gay album was released back in 2008 when there was nothing else around and this is of historical importance to the gay community as a whole. As I said, it is on the public record that this album was made in 2008, released to the public in 2008, the nature of the album is gay and that it was even recognized and included in a major gay music awards show the next year. Whether or not the artist is notable, the album certainly does deserve to be included on the LGBT music page to reflect accurately what happened at the time and to show that there were efforts being made publicly to serve a gay market with mainstream music. I would love to put back the section I wrote, however it seems that this editor in question has me on a watchlist of some kind and whatever I do on Wikipedia he will check and remove if it is at all connected to the name Wilshier. This means he has made it impossible for me to include the album on the LGBT music page or anywhere else on any LGBT page, no matter how important or valid it is to the gay community's historical records. So I am asking for an editor connected to the LGBT Studies project, to please go to the LGBT music page LGBT_music and re-insert the reference to the album for the benefit of those doing research in future. I can't do it myself I have found (I am pretty new as an editor to Wikipedia and am only just learning things) as whatever I put up this editor will remove again and if I just keep trying to revert his destructive edits, he will cite an edit war and attempt to shut me down via a ban. It is not against the rules of Wikipedia for a person connected to a project or anything else to do their own edits, as long as the information is correct and verifiable and is neutral and not biased, but this editor has made up his mind that the artist is not notable enough therefore the release is not to be mentioned and this means one person who does not understand gay issues and our history is being allowed to adversely influence what other gay people read (or in this case are unable to read). I am just trying to be helpful to the gay community by having accurately recorded history of ours out there to find, that's why I did the album in the first place back then, to help because there wasn't anything around at the time, so it doesn't seem right that one person with a bee in his bonnet should be able to delete this reference which has importance to those in the gay community. The album was released back in 2008 to the general public for a gay audience, this is irrefutable and verifiable, so it needs to be included on the LGBT music page. Here are the links I used as external sources for the section, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5], [6] but the section including external refs will still be in the pages edit history anyway. I don't care if the quote is removed though I felt at the time it was important to show why the recording was released and it was supported with an external ref to the interview anyway, I only care that the reference to the release is there, for all the reasons listed above. The editor has stated to me on the last instance; "Stop promoting Wilshier, who has not made enough of a splash to be notable by Wikipedia's standards." (ref to the conversation are here; User_talk:Taurusthecat , Talk:The_Man_I_Love_(song) #Wilshier cover version , but he just does not understand the significance of this release to the gay community in the context of the LGBT music page. Thankyou for your help. Taurusthecat ( talk) 18:09, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
References
- ^ http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/28561349?selectedversion=NBD44587715
- ^ http://www.netlibrary.net/article/whebn0005978022/the%20man%20i%20love%20%28song%29
- ^ http://www.netlibrary.net/Articles/Gimme!%20Gimme!%20Gimme!%20%28A%20Man%20After%20Midnight%29?&Words=lover%20man%20song
- ^ http://www.queerty.com/will-adam-lambert-be-at-tonights-outmusic-awards-do-you-even-know-what-that-is-20091208
- ^ http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/lgbt/Chicagoans-nominated-for-OUTMusic-Awards/23347.html
- ^ http://www.jeremygloff.com/index.html/lee-wilshier-the-outmusic-interview/
- Everything in Wikipedia must be a summary of significant information. Wikipedia cannot be the place for not-very-notable facts. Frankly it doesn't matter whether you are the artist in question, or an agent, or just a fan. The main point is that you must have WP:SECONDARY sources to establish the importance of a fact. None of your sources were sufficient. Binksternet ( talk) 18:23, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
- TL;DR. Paragraph breaks, PLEASE! Bearcat ( talk) 23:20, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
But every single reason you have given for removal of any and all refs to this cover album were stated by you from the start to be regarding the fact the the artist was not notable enough, this was the sole reason you gave and there was no mention of the ext refs. It is only now since a 3rd party got involved through 3rd opinion on the talk page of one of the songs questioning your notability argument and then citing that maybe the refs were doubtful, that you have now changed it to being about the refs. Now you are saying that it is because references are not sufficient and it is looking more and more like you are just trying to prevent any mention of this release for any reason possible, citing that it is being promoted. It is not being promoted, it is an old album almost 10 years old which was never intended to be a hit, and the artist who made it had no desire to be famous, the only important thing is that it was offered to the gay public where there was no music around in the mainstream arena, and for correct history of gay music and efforts to make it socially acceptable, for anyone doing research in the future, it is important to show that this release was made at the time it was. You appear to be following my every move manually (which could be construed as harassment/bullying) by checking my contributions because you have got it in your head that this entry is to promote and nothing more, yet you do not understand the significance of the release to the gay community. I cite the refs I do because I was NOT a self promoter at the time and as the release was in 2008 many of the interviews and articles are now gone as many online mags and other places do not keep old copies of their issues online. I could provide links to many many online stores which show the release date and that it came out when it did, however I would not link to these in a pink fit as it would then be seen to be promoting a product. People can find the release easily by doing a simple Google search at any time, it is not for Wikipedia to have links like that, Wikipedia is for information and research. You may not understand, but the release was notable at the time and still is for what it tried to achieve, and needs to be recorded. It's release date is in the public domain, it is included in a gay award ceremony which means it was a gay record made by a gay person for a gay audience, all this is verifiable, so your new excuse that the refs are not sufficient to allow the inclusion of this release on a LGBT page is not convincing. Taurusthecat ( talk) 19:42, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
And I will also say that the LGBT music page is almost bare, it has little or no information on it about LGBT music, other than a few references to people like Elton John and Sylvester, for anyone visiting that page they will see more or less nothing of any interest other than a few extremely famous people are gay and a few other extremely famous people are gay sympathizers. The page desperately needs input and more content and this piece I put in was to help with that and assist in giving some information on gay music history. It is factual and it is verifiable. Taurusthecat ( talk) 19:53, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
- Consensus at WP:SONGCOVER is that the artist must be notable in Wikipedia's terms to mention a cover song performed by the artist. It's the most basic threshold that all the editors agree upon. That's why I hammered on notability right off the bat. Binksternet ( talk) 20:05, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
This was already discussed by another editor here; Talk:The_Man_I_Love_(song) #Response to Third Opinion Request where it is stated that: "...but I disagree that either SONGCOVER (which is not a "guideline" as defined by Wikipedia) or Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias #Selection based on notability of article topics controls in this matter. Both of those are statements at WikiProjects which have no weight as "rules" and WikiProjects do not have the right to set standards for articles, unless those standards are approved as "true" policies or guidelines via the process set out in the Policy policy; see this section of the Consensus policy." Even though this 3rd opinion was offered as an informal dispute resolution, it is still offered by someone who seems to know what he's talking about but you have chosen to ignore it. In the case of this release, it is not notable (as I keep saying) because of the artist who made it, it is entirely notable for being a gay release to mainstream where there were none or little at the time and where the LGBT page was talking exactly about this topic. A track from the release was included in the gay version of the Grammys held following year (2009) for heaven's sake and this is completely verifiable through several sources, if this does not make a release notable what does? (And this is ignoring the importance of the release to the gay community, something which is not in your area of expertise so you can be forgiven for not understanding, and trying to apply 'straight' rules of notability to a gay issue which is different due to the smaller size and more invisible nature of out gay people and product within various industries). In any case, just linking to someones supporting OPINION in an article or website that it was a notable release to the gay community (which is what you are requesting) does not mean nearly as much as showing hard evidence that it was included in a major gay music awards event just after release. Taurusthecat ( talk) 20:32, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
- More people would read and participate in this discussion if the contributors took the time to make their points succinctly. No one wants to read through all this. I'm surprised I did.
- Songcover issues are best left elsewhere and not re-hashed here.
- As this entry develops, it will be important to develop some judgments about who or what gets included. Notability for inclusion in a WP entry is not the same as notability for having a standalone WP entry. That discussion should focus on material that sits on the border of notable and not notable. I'm afraid I have to agree that the additions under discussion here are not sufficiently notable for that. Perhaps that's because there is so little in the entry now that including a cover that was nominated but failed to win seems to highlight this material out of proportion to its significance. At least to me at this time. Bmclaughlin9 ( talk) 23:41, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
My standpoint and reasoning on this issue is that as the LGBT music page was specifically discussing a lack of LGBT music and then it's evolving emergence and acceptance out into the open through time, and that this 2008 public release of previously straight-dominated mainstream songs in the form of cover recordings made openly and specifically for the gay public (and not just hidden away in a ghetto setting) came out when it did, that this was the point, and precisely what the page was talking about. It was part of a push, along with others, to put gay music on equal footing with straight music and increase gay self-pride, visibility and social equality, at a time when gay music was not widely known about or really available to the general gay public in any form other than private file-sharing. Certainly not broadcast on mainstream radio stations. This is precisely what the article was talking about and this release was part of that period whatever you like to think about its individual success or notability. Regardless of any perceived notability issues, I do believe that this release still does have it's place in the narrative and should be included. Further, because gay society has been pushed into the shadows for so long and is only just coming out into the mainstream (even today), there are bound to be issues with notability and exposure of most gay recordings pre 2010 or so. On the point regarding the little content on the page and how it might affect perception of this entry, I believe that if the page itself was full of information like it should be and rich with historical detail, this entry would just blend in with all the rest and it would not draw attention other than to inform researchers, but that as you say, because there is so little on the page currently, anything which is put on it will stand-out unnaturally. However while this page remains so bare, anything added is going to suffer the same fate. This will result in overly strict standards for inclusion with the current page just staying bare like it is and nothing being added to it and anyone coming to the page for reference will find little or no information which is contrary to what Wikipedia is there for and used for. The nature of the LGBT music world is that there are very few out gay musicians, and there were even less in 2008. Many will not have a massive public profile but in relation to the context of this page and what it relates to, (LGBT music and it's history) they all need to be fairly considered for inclusion as it is extremely important to document the journey and progress of the pioneers of this modern industry and it is these people who formed the movement. And accurately documenting this is what this page is supposed to be all about. Taurusthecat ( talk) 00:58, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
- You don't get special dispensation for being part of a minority interest group. Everything on Wikipedia is supposed to be notable as seen by third party commentators. Sylvester, Giorgio Moroder and and Frankie Knuckles are notable, as there are a great many publications that have talked about them in depth, but you are not notable as measured in this manner. What you need are multiple publications featuring an in-depth description of your life and career. Until that time you are not famous enough for Wikipedia. Binksternet ( talk) 04:05, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is all about reliable sourcing. As unfortunate as it may be that some subjects have been historically underrepresented, it's not Wikipedia's job to rectify that blindly — if you have to rely on primary and self-published sources to get an "undercovered" thing into Wikipedia, then unfortunately it just doesn't get to be put into Wikipedia. As valuable as it may be to increase our coverage of LGBT, women's and other topics that tend to be underrepresented, that cannot be at the expense of relying on reliable sourcing and proper evidence of notability. It's certainly possible that you might potentially qualify for a Wikipedia article, but (a) you haven't provided satisfactory evidence or reliable sourcing to demonstrate that, and (b) under our conflict of interest policy, you don't get to demand special "less sources needed" treatment for yourself that's different from the standards we would apply to any other topic.
- And I'm a gay man who puts as much effort as I can into increasing our coverage of LGBT topics within the bounds of our sourcing and notability rules, so this certainly isn't coming from a place of homophobia. Bearcat ( talk) 23:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Reading the article lead, it seems like this article is about music by LGBT individuals, but looking at section "List of LGBT influenced songs", a significant number are by non-LGBT artist. Seems like this list is more appropriate for Gay anthem article. The entire list is unsourced, only one of the songs has it's own article, several songs don't even have an article for the artist, and there seems to be no threshold for inclusion. That is, can I make up a LGBT themed song & add my name to the list since no notability or even citation seems to be required? Given how the article lead defines LGBT music, it seems a list of LGBT artists would be more appropriate, but that's what Category:LGBT musicians is for. The list is more appropriate to be moved to Gay anthem article or deleted. Thoughts? Thanks, 15zulu ( talk) 08:10, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Since no response in six days, I'll proceed with bold edit. 15zulu ( talk) 09:11, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
So since this is pretty messy I propose this: changing the LGBT artist section to ~Top 40's LGBT Artists until the 2010's~ OR SOMETHING. Just to narrow it down to a set category of musician and stopping before it's too current and complicated and make that another section. so just list big artists by decade with few generalizing statements then a separate heading for all the many many lgbtq artists who aren't in popularly known or whatever qualifications.
I want to expand the section on the OutMusic Awards because that needs to be somewhere.
Thoughts? Miffedmess ( talk) 20:15, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
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I noticed this page was shockingly empty of LGBT artists, so I added as many as I know of. If anyone else knows of others, I would love to see them added. Now it's no longer just older music either. Wizardkate ( talk) 23:12, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Maybe mention Will Grega's book Gay Music Guide? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3629230-gay-music-guide -- EarthFurst ( talk) 21:38, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
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— Assignment last updated by Alexp10801 ( talk) 17:59, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
Why don't we change the layout of the page? I think it would be much better to present the information on this page if we ordered the page by music genre rather than by time period. Not only would it be easier to add further information, it would be easier to edit information too. The page as it stands right now is kind of confusing to navigate, and it also doesn't really make much sense to start the history of "LGBT Music" in the 70s. LGBT Music has been in existence since people have been making music, so trying to make a definitive timeline seems counterintuitive.
I think that it would be good to cross reference this page with the LGBT culture page, as that one talks about music but does not refer to this page at all. It might also be beneficial to open this page up to music that's important to LGBT culture, not just music by LGBT musicians.
Maybe we should also change the name to LGBTQ+ music?
Bstromoski (
talk) 21:28, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that I agree. The history of it sees more informative than just the genre distinctions. As it stands, *most* of the styles mentioned, whether it be dance-pop, house, disco, or glam rock relate pretty closely to pop, to begin with. Sure some briefly mentioned like industrial, hip hop, or punk don't necessarily, but it I think ordering by year makes more sense. Honestly what this page really needs is for all of the unsourced information to be deleted and for some very dedicated users to add a lot of the missing, but necessary sourced info. Especially since the article seems to maybe to heavily lean on post-90s artists. I could help, but I'm not into doing that alone.
Mrmoustache14 (
talk) 11:44, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think reading the first paragraph of Matthew Jones's Review Essay: “Straight Histories of Queer Music” in the Journal of Popular Music Studies would help dissuade us from a chronological approach:
- "Chronology is often a blunt and brutal tool. One of its major methodological drawbacks is the tendency to obscure messy and haphazard realities for tidy, linear fictions whose components fit neatly together. This is especially problematic for LGBTQ+ historical work. When they exist at all, queer historical records are notoriously incomplete, ephemeral, and haphazard while our queer ancestors, especially those who lived prior to the 1970s, often toiled in relative isolation, obscurity, or in small, subaltern communities."
- This is just a small section, but I think you get the gist. Bstromoski ( talk) 18:39, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
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Proposed merge of Gay anthem into LGBT music
These seem to be covering very similar topics; no reason why the content in gay anthem cannot be merged to LGBT music GnocchiFan ( talk) 17:56, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't want a massive list on this article, but other info from the Gay Anthem article could come here. Maybe transition
Gay anthem into "List of Gay Anthems" and make it just a list while migrating the non-list info here.
Mrmoustache14 (
talk) 02:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- That seems like a good idea. GnocchiFan ( talk) 13:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't want a massive list on this article, but other info from the Gay Anthem article could come here. Maybe transition
Gay anthem into "List of Gay Anthems" and make it just a list while migrating the non-list info here.
Mrmoustache14 (
talk) 02:40, 24 March 2024 (UTC)