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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:51, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
BBoyNeptune06, you noted in your edit summary, "This is clearly not a mistake. African American is a specific ethnicity, no different from Chinese American. America is his birth citizenship, African American is his nationality." But the terms here are mislabeled. African American is not his nationality - he was born in Virginia, not in Africa (and if he were born in Africa, he would be a Foo-ian American, where Foo is the actual country in which he was born, as Africa is not a nation). Chinese American is ambiguous - this could refer to an ethnicity (an American born to parents of Chinese origin) or a nationality (a person born in China who emigrated to America), but African American is not a nationality category (this is contested by black nationalists, but I believe accepting that view would constitute a violation of WP:NPOV). In this article's case, citizenship and nationality are the same. The infobox does not have a field for ethnicity, but I have added his ethnicity to the body of the text. Please use the talk page to discuss further. Thank you. Chubbles ( talk) 00:37, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Chubbles, you also noted in Kelvin Taylor (actor) Wikipedia page that he is African American. African American is his nationality. American is his citizenship. Nationality has two definitions, one stating "the status of belonging to a particular nation" and another stating "an ethnic group forming a part of one or more political nations",to which he is the latter. American is ambigous - this could refer to a mixed American with European features, which is actually European American. His birth state of Virginia does not make his ethnicity Virginian. He is African by dominate gene, American by birth country. I am not sure what is confusing about him being African American. African American is not a nationality category according to who? Black is ambigious, vague and as none specific as identifiying someone European as white. Black history does not speak for Afro-Cuban's, Afro-Iranian's, or Afro-Brazillian's. Black History is African American History, the His-story of Africans in America. History is not told by the loser but the victor, however history can no longer hide from the internet. The correlating factor is the word Afro, as in African. Race according to color was man-made by German Anthropologist Johann Friedrich Blumenbach which directly influenced Hitlers Ideology and caused World War 2. "His Theory" on 5 Races was used to Justify Europes involvement in the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade & used as an excuse for the catholic church to spread Christinaity in newly invaded and colonised lands. So meantioning what is contested by black nationalists is irrelavent. When you google search Chinese, it does not say "people of yellow origin". What you believe is also irrelavant to you not accepting cultural accuracy down to a continent and country. So this does not constitute a violation of WP:NPOV). In this article's case, citizenship and nationality are not the same, or they would not need seperate catagories. You are vandalising a page and would advise you to not futher do so. Thank you. BBoyNeptune06 ( talk) 00:37, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- The conceptual difficulty with "American" would be solved by stating that his nationality is "United States" or equivalent - it's true that, e.g. in German they say US-Amerikan to make clear we do not mean "person from the Americas", though I haven't seen much confusion on that issue on the English Wikipedia. I really think you're conflating the concepts of ethnicity and nationality here in a way that is fundamentally confusing and does not conform to Wikipedia guidelines, specifically WP:INFOBOXNTLY. Of the two definitions you gave for nationality, only the first describes the term as it is commonly used to identify subjects in the encyclopedia; the other is a colloquial usage that, more precisely, is better characterized as a definition for ethnicity. His birth state of Virginia tells us nothing at all about his ethnicity - his birth nation, indeed, tells us nothing about his ethnicity. His birth state of Virginia, however, does tell us that he is a national of the US. I have no idea what Taylor's "dominate gene" is - his genetics would require sourcing not present in the article, and again, they do nothing to establish what his nationality is, because nationality is not based in genetics. I am not questioning that he is African American, nor am I questioning whether this should be stated in the article. As I noted, I moved this fact to the biography section. However, race/ethnicity is specifically deprecated as an infobox parameter ( WP:INFOBOXETHNICITY), and so his race or ethnicity should not be stated in the infobox. WP:INFOBOXNTLY, in fact, states that neither the nationality nor the citizenship field should be used "when the country to which the subject belongs can be inferred from the country of birth" - which is the case here (he's never claimed citizenship of any other nation, and there doesn't seem to be any debate about his being born in Virginia). So, I think the best solution here is to remove both the nationality and the citizenship parameters from the infobox. Lastly, please WP:AGF; I am, rather obviously, not vandalizing this page, and you are therefore not justified in serially reverting me. Chubbles ( talk) 04:49, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Chubbles, me stateing African American is his nationality, American is his citizenship in detail is sufficiant. Once again, in this article's case, citizenship and nationality are not the same, or they would not need seperate catagories. Nationality having two definitions, one stating "the status of belonging to a particular nation" and another stating "an ethnic group forming a part of one or more political nations",to which he is the latter" is enough and eliminates the arguement. Any additional input given to you on context on how identity can be abused with European Anthropologist influence being specific to Nationality was out of altruistic purposes. Your conflict of interest instead is out of ego. I am not sure why being called "African" along with him being "American" is a issue for you. I am not trying to attack you, but simply state the two definitions of Nationality on goolge according to the Oxford Dictionary of England (to which we all speak english due to European Colonialism, regardless if we are from England) effectively ended your arguement and fair enough. African American applies. By continuing to futher to revert his page and myself being African American offended, you are serially vandalising his page. Once again, I would advise you not to further do so. For a second time, Thank you. BBoyNeptune06 ( talk) 08:55, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
- Can you speak to the guidelines I cited? They directly contradict the way you've structured the infobox. Most of what you've said here repeats what you've already said in previous responses, without addressing anything I wrote in my last message, and has ventured into personal attack. Chubbles ( talk) 09:35, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
-
Chubbles, there is no need to discuss your ramblings about sourcing genetic information on Kelvin Taylor not present in an article. This discussion has been resolved according to the Oxford Dictionary of Englands definition of Nationality, one of two definitions that applies to the article we are discussing. The second definition of Nationality stating "an ethnic group forming a part of one or more political nations" which would be African American. Your arguement is as bogus as saying you can not write his Citizenship as American without proof of birth certificate. Clearly this is resolved and I have only repeated myself as you wish to run circles around a clear definition of Nationality that applies to the article. Now for a third time, Thank you. Quite frankly, you are harrassing me after I have answered your quiery and kindly stated I am not attacking you. Hence my warning on vandalising and harrasment of any sort after gifting validity to my point of view based on clear definitions. Cheers.
BBoyNeptune06 (
talk) 00:22, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- Okay, to state my position clearly, I believe that both the citizenship field and the nationality field should be removed from the infobox, and that the statement that Taylor is African-American should be moved to the body of the article. Since there is disagreement between 2 editors and we appear to have exhausted reasoned debate, I will move on to requesting a WP:3O on this matter. Chubbles ( talk) 15:32, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
-
Chubbles, there is no need to discuss your ramblings about sourcing genetic information on Kelvin Taylor not present in an article. This discussion has been resolved according to the Oxford Dictionary of Englands definition of Nationality, one of two definitions that applies to the article we are discussing. The second definition of Nationality stating "an ethnic group forming a part of one or more political nations" which would be African American. Your arguement is as bogus as saying you can not write his Citizenship as American without proof of birth certificate. Clearly this is resolved and I have only repeated myself as you wish to run circles around a clear definition of Nationality that applies to the article. Now for a third time, Thank you. Quite frankly, you are harrassing me after I have answered your quiery and kindly stated I am not attacking you. Hence my warning on vandalising and harrasment of any sort after gifting validity to my point of view based on clear definitions. Cheers.
BBoyNeptune06 (
talk) 00:22, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- Chubbles, feel free to request for a WP:3O, however the definition of Nationality according to the oxford dictionary is very clear. Nationality is defined in two ways and states "an ethnic group forming a part of one or more political nations". The actors article is fine to defined as such without removal from the infobox. It is accuracte to his references articles of interviews and google algarithm as well. Your desire to null his nationality has no merit and ive asked you three times to stop harrassing by being a vandal with replies. You can pursue a WP:3O without needing to comment after being asked to be left alone. Your conduct is unprofessional. You lack respect when offering to edit and being corrected with reference. BBoyNeptune06 ( talk) 12:53, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
3O Response: Since the birth place is known, use |birthplace= instead of either |nationality= or |citizenship= . The usage guideline for {{
Personbox}} says the other fields should only be used if nationality or citizenship "cannot be inferred from the birthplace". Since Taylor is born in Virgina, both nationality and citizenship can be readily inferred from that.
Coastside (
talk) 03:21, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
- OK, thanks. I'll update the page to be consistent with that opinion, which I believe to be well-founded. Chubbles ( talk) 02:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
3O Response:
BBoyNeptune06 (
talk ·
contribs) I see you reverted the recent edit made by
Chubbles (
talk ·
contribs) The change he made to the infobox were consistent with the recommendation I made, and consistent with the guidelines I provided at {{
Personbox}}. Given that you both agreed to request a 3O opinion, it would be appropriate to at least explain why you disagree before simply reverting the edit. To reiterate the guidance, because the birthplace is known, the usage guidelines for the infobox for citizenship says the parameter is "rarely needed" and "should only be used if citizenship differs from the value in |nationality= and cannot be inferred from the birthplace." This is clearly not the case, since citizenship can be inferred from the fact that he is born in Virginia. The usage guidelines for nationality says to use nationality "where any confusion could result" regarding the difference between nationality and citizenship. An example where confusion might arise is when citizenship differs from nationailty in cases where a country doesn't "automatically grant citizenship to people born within their borders." This is not the case here. No one will confuse nationality and citizenship in this case since the US automatically grants citizenship to everyone born in the country. Finally, the template documentation includes the following additional information regarding the ethnicity parameter:
- "Please note that in 2016, the =|religion and =|ethnicity parameters were removed from Infobox person as a result of the RfC: Religion in biographical infoboxes and the RfC: Ethnicity in infoboxes as clarified by this discussion."
Since these issues have been addressed, you should read those references and specifically address them before reverting good faith edits that are intended to follow the consensus policy on usage within infoboxes. I see no reason not to follow the guidelines here. Coastside ( talk) 15:56, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- Coastside ( talk · contribs) Yes I reverted the recent edit made by Chubbles ( talk · contribs) The change he, she or they made to the infobox were consistent with the recommendation you, and consistent with the guidelines you provided at {{ Personbox}}. However, I said two to three times prior to the request for a WP:3O the definition of Nationality according to the oxford dictionary is very clear. Nationality is defined in two ways and states "an ethnic group forming a part of one or more political nations". The actors article is fine to defined as such without removal from the {{ Personbox}}. It is accuracte to his references articles of interviews and google algarithm as well. Her desire to null his nationality has no merit seeing as though her intial complaint was regarding him being identified as African American instead of American. For me to consider Chubbles ( talk · contribs) prior words regarding the articles gene's is utterly porposturous and improper. I've asked this User three times to stop harrassing. Chubbles ( talk · contribs) has only reformated the the articles original format and added in inproper writing thay does not reflects Wikipedia's style. I have contributed to correct and would ask that you review or revert that users changes correcting the writing that is not translated properly. However, this reflects my issue with this user's desire to improper null or discriminate against his nationality based on that users personal preference about being considered African. This is not about preference but accuracy to the article and the articles Nationality without aligning it the same as Citizenship. BBoyNeptune06 ( talk) 06:59, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
3O Response:
BBoyNeptune06 Thanks for taking the time to explain your position on this and moving the conversation forward. I hope you don't mind I took out the 3PO template from the beginning of your response. The idea is to separate the 3O response comments from the other user comments.
As with many disputes on Wikipedia, a lot of issues, including conduct issues, get caught up in the in the discussion. It's usually helpful to break the discussion into pieces, and particularly to separate questions about the content of the article from issues related to conduct of individuals.
Regarding the infobox, the definition of the word "nationality" isn't the primary reason to leave it out of the infobox. The guidelines are to use birthplace if it's known and not to use nationality or citizenship. Since we know the birth place that's the proper way to handle. As to the definition of nationality, I would point to the Wikipedia article African American which refers to the term as "ethnic group" rather than nationality. Regardless, agreeing on the definition isn't important in terms of the infobox since we know the birth place. Just use that. One of the reasons Wikipedia guidelines like this are written is to avoid controversy and debate on each article. Once the community agrees how to handle various situations, the consensus gets documented as policy. It's not that you absolutely have to do things a certain way, but it's certainly the place to start. If there is no compelling reason to do it a different way, then it's best to just follow accepted practice.
Regarding whether it's accurate to identifying Kevin Taylor as African American, I don't think that's controversial. He is African American. However, as it's apparently relevant and sourced it can be mentioned in the article itself as opposed to the infobox.
Regarding your view that the other editor is demonstrating conduct issues such as "harassing" you or "discriminating", the WP:3O process is not meant to address conduct issues. It requires good faith and civility to be successful. Likewise the WP:DRN process is for content disputes only. These venues are not meant to address issues related to conduct. For disruptive editing, please read WP:DDE and you may also want to look at 3RR for information on how to request administrator involvement if you think that's appropriate. My recommendation is to focus on getting the article to where it needs to be and ignore the verbal tussling on talk pages when you can. You might be surprised how powerful it can be to simply ignore comments you find inappropriate. Always take the high road, the view is better! Coastside ( talk) 21:01, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
BBoyNeptune06, can you please address the statement from the 3O? In particular, it seems like the position you're taking here contradicts the current Wikipedia guidelines on what nationality means (how we define it for purposes of identification on this encyclopedia) and how it should be placed in the infobox. Can you explain why this page is exceptional in such a way that it merits ignoring those rules? Chubbles ( talk) 04:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
3O Response: I spent some time looking at various articles listed in
List of African-Americans. Almost all of them list the birth place and do not include either nationality or citizenship in the infobox. This shows that the guidelines are generally being followed. I did find a rare few that did (arguably incorrectly) include nationality in addition to the birthplace, and all of these listed "American" as the nationality. I found one or two that didn't include birthplace and listed "American" as the nationality in the infobox. I couldn't find a single article that listed "African-American" as the nationality in an infobox.
Coastside (
talk) 06:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, that is partly due to my previous actions. I had been removing "African-American" from the nationality field in the infobox, since it is not a nationality, and replacing it with "American" (I do not recall any examples where the person had been born outside the US), before I learned that the infobox guidelines recommend not using nationality at all unless it is complex. There were a couple dozen articles that had "African-American" in the nationality field six months ago. It's actually how I discovered this article. This is the last one that still uses "African-American" as a nationality after completing my search for them. Chubbles ( talk) 14:32, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:22, 7 August 2022 (UTC)