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This page should be used as an example of what POV writing is, and what encyclopedic writing is not. It is nothing more than a condemnation, citing various sources who dislike the Kabbalah Center. It says very little about the group or its beliefs. It is unacceptable. Danny 16:07, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Danny is most likely my ex husband who was convinced to donate his WHOLE salary to the Kabbalah Centre cult. Unfortunately I am intimately familiar with this very psychologically sophisticated dangerous cult. Make no mistakes about it their millions are used for powerful legal protection to keep the truth quiet. There are a great number of ways that they are hugely different from all the recognized factions of Judaism and its laws. There are many other places to study legitimate Kabbalah. B'Siyata dShamayah ( talk) 23:34, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for starting. As always, I recommend summarizing positions rather than including lengthy quotes, and providing links. Also these quotes tend to emphasize his differences with Judaism, rather than his beliefs. Jayjg 02:05, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Berg's beliefs that differ from mainstream rabbinic Judaism probably are not the main reasons for the criticism of him. After all, many Jews have beliefs that are at odds with classical Judaism. The reason for the widespread criticism appears to be that he couples his teachings with what is claimed to be peer-pressure and intimidation to coerce his students into giving him large sumns of money, and the way he supposedly estranges his followers from their families, which gives rise to charges of his group being cult-like. RK 02:37, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)
JayJG writes in an edit line for this article "The link says the opposite of what you claim, and your sources never actually back up your claims."
RK, I can sense trouble. What on earth does this article benefit from Marc Shapiro's minority interpretation of Maimonides' 11th principle? Sechar wa-Onesh (reward and punishment) are the fabric of Orthodox thought, and it is actually Albo's third principle of Jewish faith. This is not the place to emphasise Shapiro's view. JFW | T@lk 00:15, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What is one of these people called?-- The_stuart 02:33, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
People who join and follow the teachings of the Kabbalah Centre are referred to, and known as: Follower/s of the Kabbalah Center or Kabbalah Centre follower/s because one cannot equate amateur dabblers to (the) truly great classical rabbinical scholars of the Kabbalah all of whom were famous and respected Jews -- whereas many followers of the Kabbalah Centre are not Jews and even those Jews who follow the Kabbalah Centre are shunned and ridiculed by all the Jewish denominations. No-one would have the audacity to claim that by listening to a few lectures about "popular science" and by wearing a white coat that a person is "transformed" into a "scientist" ! IZAK 03:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I totally fail to see any value by the inclusion of the logo on this page. It looks more like a cheap advert rather than a serious article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.241.188.194 ( talk • contribs)
They are _Rabbis_ I am shocked. ems 17:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
It may make sense to verify the target audience list and reduce it to a managable size and/or make a list of targets. JoshuaZ 04:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've branched the list of affiliated celebrities off into a separate list. Three things need to be done: 1) Which celebrities stay on this page needs to be decided. 2) We need sources for all the claimed celebrities (somewhat similar to how List of agnostics is sourced). JoshuaZ 01:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Another example of non-encyclopedic writing:
"Kabbalah is not a religion -- it actually predates the beginning of religion itself. Kabbalah is a 4000 year old living wisdom meant for everyone, regardless of religious background, nationality, or level of study."
Well, obviously that depends on the way one uses the term religion. Many Christians who feel their faith is current and vital prefer not to call their "walk of faith" a religion. But, that doesn't prevent it from being one in the encyclopedic sense.
Kabbalah is a spiritual pursuit, a set of spiritual disciplines and teachings. It's a religion. Maybe it's hip, but it's still a religion.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Michaeltag ( talk • contribs)
This section is blatant pro-Kabbalah Center POV. I think someone can easily re-write it to make it NPOV however. 67.187.189.229 11:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I think there should be added the response of the Kabblah Centre to these criticisms. The Kabblah Centre has not been silent to its critics from what I am aware. They claim that the majority of the criticism comes from the Orthodox Community, whom they believe are criticing them for teaching Jewish beliefs to non-Jews. As far is the "charging huge sums of money", they claim otherwise, that their courses actually pretty cheap, and that charging money is a needed evil because spreading the word of Kabblah does in fact cost them money. Masterhomer 23:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
While seeing a play in Los Angeles yesterday, I was given a card, an advertisment for the Kabbalah Centre Open House. The front of the card read: FAMOUS PEOPLE STUDY KABBALAH...SHAKESPEARE, SOCRATES, NEWTON, YOU.
Were these people acually Followers of Kabbalah Centre? If so, it seems like it should be added to this article. 69.233.254.249 23:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I am convinced that it is completely impossible to make an unbaised entry about this group. It continually turns into a he-said, she-said downward spiral. People here are only interested in throwing mud and insults at the opposition.Shalom!(Unsigned comment added 08:14, June 21, 2006 by 209.44.15.194)
This article is a PRIME example of how Wiki can be just awful awful awful. It's the perfect forum for people with hatred and other issues to slam something they either don't understand and don't want to hear. Online discussion forums are better suited for this brand of criticism and opinion. From a writing standpoint, this is the worst piece of crap article I've ever seen. There's no order, and it's all over the place. Random "facts" are slapped in the middle of no where with no regard to chronology. Certainly not something I'd expect to find in a REAL encyclopedia. (Unsigned comment posted 10:34, June 27, 2006 by 209.51.229.82)
There have been many unsigned disparaging edits recently. I've reverted one or two, but the article is still stuffed full of unsourced edits. If you have a reliable source for your statement, please cite it. Wikipepedia requires properly-sourced statements, not your own personal opinions or beliefs, no matter how strongly held. If this organization is a evil as some editors clearly believe, it ought to be easy to find reliable printed sources to back up your allegations. Let's try to keep Wikipepedia reliable and enyclopedic, and not a vehicle for individual points of view. Please try to keep within the WP:POV guidelines.-- MichaelMaggs 14:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
This article needs a complete re-write. I'm reluctant to attempt that myself, as I have very little knowledge of the subject, but is there a neutral editor out there who would be prepared to try? -- MichaelMaggs 14:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I have made edits to this article, as I was amazed at the slant it presented. Citing the allegations of others does not make them valid, and they should at least be "alleged" unless there is evidence otherwise. A fair article is what is needed, not a bash piece and not a promo. For example, when I found it, the opening sentence said the KC was a worldwide marketing organization. That is pure bias.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.184.167.37 ( talk • contribs)
We again have an anomymous editor who is attempting to re-insert the derogatory 'marketing organization' POV. Please discuss proposed contentious edits here before making them. Please, also, use edits summaries and cite your sources -- MichaelMaggs 07:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Once again, someone is changing the first paragraph of the article in an offensive manner, using biased words phrases such as "sells" "spiritual products" and "storefronts". Objectivity is the high road!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.180.240.186 ( talk • contribs)
Sorry, it is an objective description of the Toronto Kabbalah Centre location, for example, to call it a storefront. 18 Hazelton Avenue is a store, with products in the window, and posters advertising these products, and there is no evidence on the outside of the building of anything except it being a shop selling stuff. Sorry, it is a storefront operation, in a trendy shopping district of Toronto, right behind the Hazelton Lanes shopping centre. It does SELL spiritual products. The books, candles, videotapes, trinkets, et cetera, are "spiritual products". And it definitely SELLS everything. It gives NOTHING away. Is this a failure to be objective? Or is it factual reporting???
REPLY: It "offers" for sale books, tapes, and courses in it's bookstore, a common feature in many churches and synagogues. It provides Shabbat services for no charge. It offers free introductory seminars. All locations are not storefronts my friend, including the primary location in Los Angeles. You know darned well that you want to use "storefront" to support your bias.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.180.240.186 ( talk • contribs)
Does the Kabbalah Centre have anything to do with Judaism? Here, directly from www.Kabbalah.com, the official Kabbalah Centre website: "It is quite understandable that Kabbalah could be confused with Judaism. Throughout history, many scholars of Kabbalah have been Jewish. But there have also been many non-Jewish scholars of this wisdom, such as Christian Knorr-von-Rosenroth, Pico Della and Sir Isaac Newton, just to name a few." Therefore, I suggest this article make it clear that despite offering Shabbat services, The Kabbalah Centre is not Jewish. Another bizarre feature of this strange organization which likes to have its cake and eat it too!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.128.113 ( talk • contribs)
REPLY: It's not so much a matter of having cake and eating it too. It is a misunderstanding of what Shabbat connection means to the KC, which is not a religious observance, but rather a technology for spiritual connection, available to anyone, regardless of whether they are Jewish. What is not being grasped I think is that Kabbalah is seen by KC as a spiritual technology which preceded the Jewish religion. So, one can in their view practice Kabbalah without practicing Judaism per se. It is a bit blurry in some respects, but upon deeper examination it becomes very clear. It is a bit like how one can choose to write English or Spanish, two related languages that share the same "source code" (in this case letters of the alphabet), yet they are distinct from each other.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.180.240.186 ( talk • contribs)
Looks like the Philip Berg article is also going to need an overhaul, since it's full of unreferenced information. -- Elonka 20:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following:
It's not appropriate to keep suck an attack in the article unless the editor who wishes to include it can provide proper, sourced, evidence to back up the allegation. It's not acceptable to leave such material in place and simply tag it as 'citation needed'. A citation should be provided by the editor wishing to add it.-- MichaelMaggs 21:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
1)Israeli police decided that kabbalah centres leader Shaul Youdkevich not guilty in Leah Zunis case. 2)Kabbalah Centre says that there are many people which where cured by kabbalah technologies and its not fair look just on one side of the story. 3)External link also include one sided negative information and using some lies—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.221.8 ( talk • contribs)
People in the Kabbalah Centre do not call themselves Kabbalists; they by and large only use that word as a title of respect, in particular towards Rav Berg and his wife Karen. Msteven1 ( talk) 12:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I went to the Kabbalah Centre and the first thing out of my teachers mouth would be "Did you give your thithings?" This is my personal experience. Even though I do love the essential core of the teachings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.164.119 ( talk) 12:11, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
I have noticed this sentence in the article that I find intriguing: [Start Quote]
Previously I had never read or heard about such a prohibition. Can anyone cite its source, PLEASE? Regards, -- AVM 23:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Eh... I think Elie Wiesel mentions it. Rereading Night. -- Cheeesemonger 13:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
There is a separate list of associated celebrities. Ideally people on that list should be sourced. Help finding sources would be appreciated. JoshuaZ 02:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm currently composing a massive overhaul for this article, in order to remove the cleanup tag. If there is anything in particular you would like me to address please let me know. Trickrick1985 02:09, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
If you go by the Kabbalah Centre's flimsy page, the centre claims to be a "bona fide" non-profit organization (tax exempt in the USA, 501 (c) 3 status) -- yet there are only 3 sentences on that particular page, and the page's copyright date is now 3 years old, from 2004 as it is. How can this centre be non-profit when ALL of the centre's classes/books/material cost money; individual classes run hundreds of dollars apiece (or more), while the Kabbalah studies certificates/diplomas/degrees offered by the centre require many classes and thus often run in the tens of thousands thousands of dollars? It is worth noting that, given the Kabbalah Centre's international presence ( List of Kabbalah Centre locations) they make a whole lot of money (much like Scientology and the like) internationally as well; indeed Rabbi Berg & Family ( Karen Berg, Yehuda Berg, Michael Berg, etc.) are as a consequence very wealthy people. It even says in the article that:
It also says in the intro to Philip Berg's article that: "Also, the Centre's financial peculiarities have attracted growing attention, as another motive for suspicion and further controversy." Plus, one wonders when they find 'spiritual organizations' that charge $26 + shipping for a measly metre of red string that supposedly wards off "the evil eye"; it would seem that this 'non-profit org' is actually a very profitable business if they are able to charge $26 for string. -- 172.128.131.86 15:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
"Donors may verify an organization's tax-exempt status and eligibility to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions by requesting to see an organization's IRS letter recognizing it as tax-exempt or directly calling the IRS (toll-free) at 1-877-829-5500." or perform an online search http://apps.irs.gov/app/pub78 Dhcernese 21:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
understand that according to US law Kabbalah Centre is not proffit organization. It is a fact.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.110.230.2 ( talk • contribs)
Kabbalah Centre International Incorporated Los Angeles CA USA -- Kabbalah Centre of New York Incorporated Los Angeles CA USA -- Kabbalah Centres of the United States Inc. Los Angeles CA USA
I have removed:
Many consider the Centre to be a dangerous cult. What is taught and disseminated at the Centre has little connection with the actual and proud Kabbalistic textual tradition of Judaism. Instead, superstition and celebrity worship are the norm for this questionable operation
"Many consider..." - "Many" is an unwikipedia-like word... is many 100? 1000?
It refers to the place as "superstitious" (this would not fly on any spiritual article).
"Celebrity worship" is not promoted by the Kabbalah Centre. Red-strings, yes. Celebrity worship, no. No matter how many Madonna's and Demi Moore's are affiliated with it, people are not instructed to worship celebrities. The closest thing would be their belief that you can get spiritual inspiration from visiting the grave sites of deceased "great Kabbalists."
KC is not Judaism or any religion. It's clear on that site. Over the years there have been many different interpretations of what Kabbalah is, including in some occult circles which are not Jewish.
This section is not sourced. If the above listed information is to be included in the article, it needs to go in a relevent section on criticisms and needs to be sourced.
Some teaching analogies utilize a folk understanding of science, rather than an academic one.
No source, not explained or supported. "Folk understanding" seems condescending.
Also, I modified the preceding paragraph so that rather than saying KC "often attempts to relate" kabbalah to modern sciences, it often cites kabbalah as the inspiration. These claims are made on their website. Objections to such claims would need alternate sources.
I cleaned these up, and explained a few other facts. There are a few parts of the article that still seem sketchy, such as the claim that Judaism "surpressed" astrology is false. It wouldn't surprise me if it was, but the way it's worded still seems unencyclopediac.
The criticisms section seems well presented and well sourced. -- Kilojake ( talk) 05:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The Madonna entry seems to go off on a tangent, with "Jewish authorities have called his teachings and doctrines 'Bergism.'" What exactly does that have to do with Madonna's participation? Msteven1 ( talk) 12:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I am concerned that this paragraph
Berg left Brandwein's niece, his first wife and their eight children to marry his second and current spouse Karen. They have two sons, Yehudah and Michael--"the heirs." But according to reports "outside of his own Centre and circle of followers, neither the academic nor the Jewish religious worlds know anything about him except for the anomalies of his centers." And "he is universally condemned by both the orthodox rabbinate and contemporary schools of Jewish mysticism in Israel, the USA and elsewhere, as a charlatan." In one interview Berg admitted that "in fact -he has no academic degree at all."
may violate Wikipedia's guidelines for biographies of living people, WP:BLP. It coincides with what I have heard also, but I am not sure that its being true (if it is) justifies its inclusion in the article. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 14:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
This section, as it is now written, amounts to nothing but promotion for the Kabbalah Centre. It is not neutral, and does not cite sources for some rather amazing claims. It probably should be deleted in its entirety. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 14:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
The organization was referenced in a Family Guy episode [4], inferring its participants were "a slave to trends". S06E01 "Blue Harvest" :
Can someone with more experience figure out if that should be in a cultural references section? There's probably a more official script source than that available if so. Thanks. Trickrick1985 ( talk) 21:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
David Berg is just another Shabtai Zvi or Jacob Frank. The story is an old story. I visited the Kabblah center in Miami. All they wanted was money for everything. Even though I knew more Kabbalah than every person there, they wanted to charge me a great deal of money for everything. It seemed to me that only thing they really worshipped was the Almighty Dollar. When the Jews fled Egypt they built a Golden Calf and worshipped it. The Kabbalah teaches the importance of spirituality. The Kabbalah Centre is all about worshiping materialism and the Golden Calf. When I asked them if I could meet their rabbi, that maybe he could introduce me to one of their members who could help me find a job, they booted me out of the place so fast my head swam. They do nothing to help poor members of their congregation. In fact, they are only interested in taking as much money as they can from the poor members of their congregation. Basically, this is a group that preys on people's conscience, takes their money and places in the hands of their leader Berg so Berg can live the life of the rich and famous. They claim if only you think positive, God will smile upon you. And if you are having a hard in life it is only because you haven't thought positive enough and haven't given them enough money. These were people who had no compassion for anyone. They were narcissistic, self-loving, egocentric, materialistic, and self-centered. Each member had zero interest in helping anyone, just getting ahead. If Libertarians had a religion, they might join the Kabbalah center where they believe that selfishness is good. 174.48.137.18 ( talk) 01:51, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Do not the claims of celebrity association in Kabbalah Centre#Others all require source citations under WP:BLP? Only a few have associated sources, and especially given the controversy surrounding this organization, it would seem that allegations of affiliation would need to pass WP:V and WP:RS. I am tempted to delete (or possibly spend a modicum of time researching) the uncited claims, but would rather seek consensus on this before going all WP:BOLD. (E.g., I know Sandra Bernhard mentioned it in one of her broadcast stand-up shows, but I'd have to find out which. While not technically subject to BLP anymore, the late Elizabeth Taylor also should probably be sourced.) -- KGF0 ( T | C ) 22:19, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Under Teachings: Approach, there is the following sentence: "The Kabbalah Centre often cites Kabbalah as the inspiration for recent scientific discoveries, including The Big Bang, String Theory, atomic structure, and Newton's Third Law." This is a very serious (and possibly outrageous) claim, and should be accompanied with what evidence they cite, and whether or not there is any additional reliable sources for such claims to be true. Ouizardus ( talk) 19:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Ouizardus ( talk) 19:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Surprising that LGBT issues are not addressed by this article, considering most sources seem to indicate Kabbalah Centre is accepting of homosexuality and bisexuality, though their views on transgender people seems unclear? Any competent reliable sources available for this information? Laval ( talk) 22:31, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
After all these years, lead is still a semi-promotional mess that lacks appropriate encyclopedic context. Likewise, rabbinical and scholarly consensus rejecting kabbalah centre as an authentic expression of kabbalic mysticism is barely addressed. Laval ( talk) 20:55, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
The phrase "take a deep breath" is misleading because the breath isn't something we can just "take." Breathing is a gift, a miracle, offered to us over and over again, but we often take it for granted. I say we start accepting this gift with gratitude and appreciation the way we accept all presents, by saying "thank you!" Society can seem disgruntled and ungrateful, and yes, this world appears to no longer be appreciative, but some of its people still are! And therein lies the promise. So accept a few deep breaths with a smile on your face and your eyes closed. What a joy it is to be alive...from my book kaballah..get your copy...Remember You Have GREATNESS Within You...Happy Wednesday...Namaste_/\_ Brian cole ( talk) 09:56, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
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