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I removed They are a dull people, of peasant stock; the only celebrity of note rising from them being Lawrence Welk for obvious reasons. BTW, in Russia they actually rose to great prominence, playing important roles in government and the arts. Danny
Wrong to remove true well established information from an article user:Fredbauder
Depends what the definition of dull is. If its law abiding, successful, wealthy farmers and ranchers then yes, they are very dull. Unfortunately Tom Daschle is an exception to this. He is a creepy lefty type politician. Actually there are more extensive lists of notable Germans from Russia than what's in this article. One of them is here
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~steeles/gerrus/. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
99.196.90.139 (
talk) 15:46, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
I've expanded the text quite a lot, but it has too much focus on the Russian German subculture I happen to know the best, and ought to cover more ground. There are probably some mistakes here, since I've said basically what I know from memory, supplimented by Google as a fact checker.
Also, pace Fred, there should maybe be a section on the importance of Russian Germans to Russian industrialisation and intellectual culture. Frederic Frommhold de Martens is a name that comes to mind, as does Vladimir Aleksandrovich Fock in the sciences. The guy who designed Russia's first combine was one Peter Dyck, and the manufacturer of most of Tsarist Russia's farm machinery was the A. J. Koop company. There were a lot of German names in pre-revolutionary Russian industry. Unfortunately, I only know that names of the ones who were basically blood relatives, so I can't offer a more comprehensive picture.
-- Diderot 14:30, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A very impressive article. Now that the article went way beyond a mere ethnic scope, I would suggest to rename the article into someting like History of Germans in Russia and Soviet Union. Mikkalai 16:41, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Also, does it make sense to have the category:Russian Germans? Mikkalai 16:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
An otherwise good brief description of the Germans in Russia fails to provide much information about the 200,000 Germans of Volhynia (c.1900) except for a passing reference in the Volga section. The link to the SGGEE website is appreciated. I have added a paragraph or two to make up for this.
Jerry Frank, Webmaster http://www.sggee.org - 205.206.215.65 21:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
On 27 Feb 2007, Vmenkov added some info about Volhynian Germans that migrated to eastern Russia. I find the info very interesting. The addition refers to the source material but I believe there may be some misunderstanding in that source which leads to some skewed information. The original Bug Hollender were indeed Germans who originally settled on the east side of the Bug River (in Volhynia) in the 1600s when the territory was still under Polish rule. They held to their German traditions, customs, and language.
In the 1850s to 1870s time period, a significant number of Mazovian Lutherans migrated to the Pripyat Marshes region of Volhynia, some distance east of the Bug River settlements (around Niwir and Gross Gluscha). Mazovian is a term applied to Polish ethnics but among these Lutherans were some Germans who had adopted the Polish language for their culture in their homelands of southeastern East Prussia and the Suwalki district of Russian Poland. These Mazovian and German Lutherans became associated with the Bug Hollender because the Lutheran pastor from that region served them as well. It would be these Lutherans with origins in Suwalki who carried with them the Polish texts and language in their church services, not the Bug Hollender. It is easy to understand how they became identified with the Bug Hollender in their migration to the east but ethnically there were differences.
Some of these Mazovian / German Lutherans from the Pripyat Marshes settlements also migrated to the region of Roblin, Manitoba, Canada prior to WW I where they held their church services in the Polish language until the early 1950s. Other Mazovian Lutherans, primarily with origins in East Prussia rather than Suwalki, also settled in the eastern States, Wisconsin, and near Minneapolis, MN.
This is probably more detail than is intended for this particular page so I am not sure how to handle the correction. Perhaps I will just leave it as this comment on the talk page.
Jerry Frank - Webmaster http://www.sggee.org 205.206.215.65 17:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I have initiated contact with someone in Germany who has connections to descendants of Bug Hollender there. We will see how they remember the culture of their origins. This will help to prove my theory. I have been researching Germans from Volhynia for over 20 years and have only seen, to this time, the Polish influence on culture with the Germans in the Pripyat Marshes region. The other Germans always retained their German culture, especially with respect to their religion. I can also see the Belorus connection. The Germans of the Pripyat Marshes lived in Volhynia but very close to the Belorus border. In fact, their nearest large main town was probably Pinsk. I will consider what to write after I have done more research.
Jerry 205.206.215.65 21:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
27 April 2007 I have not been able to verify a Polish language connection between the Bug Hollender and Mazovian Lutherans of the Pripyat Marshes region around Niwer and Gross Gluscha. It is known for certain that the Lutheran Pastor served both areas c.1900 but how the Polish influence in the texts came about is still in question. I propose for now to leave the text as it is.
16 September 2008 I have now been able to verify from http://domachevo.com/historu-golendry-korotko-en.htm that Vmenkov's statements are accurate except for the reference to Ukrainian being their common language. Since the church services were clearly conducted in Polish, I suspect that their common language may also have been Polish. I will modify that sentence slightly to reflect this. Jerry 205.206.215.65 21:12, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The current article states that:
"There were some 2 million ethnic Germans in the Soviet Union in 1989" ... "By 1999 about 1.7 million former Soviet citizens of German origin had immigrated to Germany."
If this was true, then the current population of ethnic Germans in the former USSR should be around 300,000. However, one of the above numbers is wrong, because in Russia currently there are 597,212 (0.41% of the population) ethnic Germans according to the 2002 census. In Kazakhstan there are 214,200 (1.4% of the population) ethnic Germans according to the 2006 census. That is at least 811,412 ethnic Germans currently living in the former USSR. Cmrdm 05:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
It would be really nice if we could put a single map together that shows all the areas of German groups in this region. For example if someone was trying to figure out which group a German village next to Kirovograd belongs to, they have to follow every link that references an area and look for a map (volga, black sea, Bessarabian, etc). Some have a map and some don't. I don't see any group that the Kirovograd area might belongs to.
Not only would it be useful for someone trying to locate information on their village of interest, but it could help in the organization of the rest of this page. For example someone mentioned that their area of interest was lumped into Volga even though it was not near the Volga I think. Dneiper is listed under Volga also. Maybe these people didn't know what category to put information in.
I have experience with making maps with ESRI, so I would be willing to try to do it. but I don't have enough reference maps for all these different areas.
Maybe anyone who knows where a map is could post the address here, and after some time I (or someone) could try to put them together into a single map. Broecher ( talk) 23:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Here is some basedata I have found so far for the map. Does anyone know if the German settlement group names are derived from these admin districts? This will likely be deleted unless I figure out the copyright.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Germans_from_Russia_BaseMap.svg
German settlement area maps to be used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhynia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarabian_Germans
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/grsettle.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Broecher ( talk • contribs) 02:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Here is another map that might prove useful. I hold the copyright but I am willing to share for republication under certain circumstances. http://www.sggee.org/research/GermanSettlements-EasternEurope.pdf
Jerry Frank - 14 Sep 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.206.215.65 ( talk) 22:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I had relatives Baltic Germans,some of them emmigrated after WWI ,and some of whom got work in Moscow in 1904. They were from high classes nobles and intelligents. Before Russian Bolsheviks left Baltic states in 1918 they stole all money in the Baltic banks . My relative von Zehrwald has lost half-million in gold roubles,which were placed in Riga's bank .
Someone went to the trouble of changing all "Russian Poland" references to "Congress Poland". It is important to understand that both terms are equally correct and there was therefore no real need to make this change. In doing so, this reviser created a sentence that stated that Congress Poland was also commonly known as Congress Poland. This person obviously never read the context of what had previously been written. I corrected that phrase to show that Russian Poland was also commonly knows as Congress Poland. I did not undo the rest of the changes. Jerry Frank - 25 Feb 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.206.215.65 ( talk) 20:39, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
The Volga Germans and Black Sea Germans sections should be modified. 1) The first section of Volga Germans sounds correct. 2) It would be better to place the section about Catherine II’s grandson, Tsar Alexander I, under the Black Sea Germans. This is the area settled by Germans in the early 1800's. 3) It would be good to clarify the term "Black Sea Germans" ... they were also called "Odessa Germans". Cte67 ( talk) 12:09, 12 January 2011 (UTC)cte67
There are many books that compile the many letters written by Germans in the Soviet Union to their relatives that emigrated to the great plains of the US. Most letters detailing the genocide were written in the 1920s and 30s. "The Open Wound: The Genocide of German Ethnic Minorities in Russia and the Soviet Union, 1915-1949 and Beyond" by Samuel Sinner is probably the best single book on the subject. Perhaps a scholar could read some of these books and add a section on the genocide.
Actually, there have been a lot of books written by Germans from Russia/Soviet Union detailing their lives in Russia/Soviet Union for sale on the North Dakota State University web site http://library.ndsu.edu/grhc/order/general/genbooks.html. It would cost a lot of money to buy all of those books, but perhaps a scholar working for a university would be interested in reading all those books and greatly expand this wiki article, in addition to adding the proposed new section on the genocide. And no, I'm not connected to the NDSU pushing book sales. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm not descended from Germans from Russia either, though I do live in ND and know a lot of people who are. I know what some of you are thinking. Why don't I do it? I guess I'm too busy with other things, too lazy, tight wad, and am not interested enough in the subject to do it, an engineer, not a historian, and so on excuse after excuse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.196.90.139 ( talk) 16:26, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
I agree with the above, that the deportation and forced labor of German Russians to Siberia and Central Asia during World War II was not genocide, in the sense that Stalin wanted to eliminate a people as the Nazis did to the Jews.Nevertheless, the treatment of the German Russians in the Gulag, in the forced labor camps had almost the same result. Over 1,000,000 Germans from Russia died or were killed under the Soviet communist regime, mostly under Stalin. Voices from the Gulag; The Oppression of the German Minority in the Soviet Union, page 6. For this reason, the section under Decline of the Russian Germans should be expanded to include some of this vital history. Zweisimmen ( talk) 15:46, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
While we appreciate that ethnicity is the way in which these are interpreted and understood in eastern europe. Most of this racist dialogue is singularly ill-founded and largely irrelevant to the matter in hand. Certain references to ethnic Germans may conceivably be appropriate, but in the majority of cases the people in question are not ethnic Germans, but Germans i.e. typically people who see themselves as German and choose where appropriate German as their language. Participation in a German church might also be evidence of their German cultural leanings. In the vast majority of cases we have no idea of their ethnicity. They may be of slav decent or from some other combination of ethnic groups or races depending on how those are defined. To illustrate the point, there has been much talk recently in the English press and media about ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians. Irrespective of usage in eastern europe that is nonsense. There is no basis for distinguishing Ukrainians and Russians on the basis of ethnicity. That doesn't mean that there aren't people who regard themselves as Russians and people who regard themselves as Ukrainians and people for whom the distinction is otiose. Those are cultural choices and inheritances with no physiological basis.
Why does this matter? It matters because similar nonsense in the Balkans in the late twentieth century gave us the infamous 'ethnic cleansing' under which certain cultural groups particularly Bosnians were persecuted and murdered on the basis of a wholly spurious ethnicity. There is no Bosnain ethnicity or Serbian or Croation. These people are simply slavs who don't like each other. Optymystic ( talk) 08:25, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
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