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This is an article (subject) which can only be accurately written and edited by persons who have been lifelong members of the European Goth subculture from it's inception in 1982. Those who do not meet this criteria have no business attempting to make assessments of a subcultural history they know little or nothing about. So please leave the writing and editing to those who know first hand - Thanks! 79.230.107.17 ( talk) 21:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
All changes made to the article are factual and relevant to the article. Removing these changes is blatent censorship of relevant factual information. If censorship is how Wikipedia works, then Wikipedia is doomed. 79.230.107.17 ( talk) 11:41, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Incidentally, I was there at the Batcave during the batcave era from 1982 and onwards, both as a band member of one of many goth bands during that time and a member of the UK goth subculture. The history of Goth and my own history are inseperable, since I have lived through every moment of Goth's history and was a part of it's making. When you think you know more than I do about the subject, then you're welcome to prove it, until then - my contribution and edits stand as fact. 79.230.107.17 ( talk) 12:27, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Deathrock evolved in North America from 1978 - 1983 independently of Goth in Europe which evolved during the same period, from 1984 Deathrock and Goth began to merge into a worldwide Goth movement. This is not "original research" it's simply an historical fact. It was not until Oliver Wisdom released "The Bat Cave, Young Limbs & Numb Hymns" in 1983 outside the UK that the "Aha" moment arrived in North America, then Kommunity FK (Patrick Mata) performed at the Batcave in 1983, the following year in April 1984 Christian Death (Rozz Williams) played the Batcave (Their first UK performance), at this point the pot had been mixed. As I stated in the article - Genre is a marketing tool for the music industry, the term has no real meaning
and exists only in the imagination. So no, Goth is not a genre, and neither is any free art form.
Goth is not a static movement. The term "Gothic Rock" may have been valid in the mid 80's, however today the "Rock" tag is obsolete and irrelevant. Goth has become a free-form art movement.
I will post the changes below for discussion so a concensus can be reached at some point. 79.230.107.17 ( talk) 23:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
The bands which directly infuenced the evolution of "Goth" music are (in chronological order): Bauhaus, Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Virgin Prunes, The Cure, [1], The Sisters of Mercy, Southern Death Cult, Specimen, Alien Sex Fiend, Sexbeat, The Venomettes, Sex Gang Children, Clan of Xymox, and Dead Can Dance. Dave Vanian of The Damned was an obvious influence on Goth fashion style, although the band has never been in any way dark or gothic in musical terms.
Whilst the person who wrote the above is probably right that these bands influenced Goth, they were not all Goths by any means. The article makes some effort to distinguish between bands that influenced the Goths and were admired by them and those that actually were 'Gothic'. However it seems to confuse the issue repeatedly and a bit more clarity in this regard seems desirable. The term gothic (small 'g'!) was often used adjectivally (rather than in reference to a genre) of 'post-punk' bands like Joy Division, the Banshees, The Cure, The Birthday Party, Killing Joke, Bauhaus etc. These were distinct from 'true' Goth bands like Sisters of Mercy, Fields of the Nephilim etc. (this can be confusing as the Sisters have themselves rejected the term just as the Birthday Party and Killing Joke did). If you went to a Cure gig in the late eighties you'd be very conscious of the different camps by the way people were dressed. You'd have your general indie kids (generally no make up and not chromatically challenged in the wardrobe department), then there'd be the guys with Robert Smith hairdos, make up, all in black (usually black denims and baggy jumpers). They weren't Goths. They were the obsessive Cure fans. Also in black and heavily made up with dyed black hair, but usually with piercings and a penchant for leather, rubber, bondage gear, studded dog collars, wrist bands, belts etc were the actual goths. Easy to spot the difference. The Goths adopted the post punk likes of the Cure, yet whilst those bands may've been gothic, they certainly weren't Goths.
In regards to music and ideology drawing strict lines is always questionable but I would point to the Sisters of Mercy's self proclaimed vision of their look and sound as the culmination and pointlessness of all prior rock cliches. The same can be said for the absurdities of the likes of the Nephilim. The more theatrical post punk bands (Banshees, Cure, Birthday Party) were adopting a look that was expressionistic rather than ironic. Similarly post punk music was broadly speaking expressionistic in tone -seeking to expand the vocabulary of rock music. By contrast the Goths propounded a millenialist, fin-de sciecle attitude that everything had been said and done and their music and image reflected a nihilism founded on this.
As for the Damned they certainly weren't Goths to start with and their graveyard imagery was pure comedy, but they later tried to pose as Goths in order to cash in (indeed one could argue that the Banshees did this later on as their popularity waned too, and even the Cure if a bit more passively). General blackblood ( talk) 15:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
References
It should be noted that the outdated term Gothic rock has become obsolete, (much as the terms "Groovy" and "Hipster"), given that the term Rock with it's 1950's Rock and Roll roots, is extremely limiting and no longer relevant to 21st century music and subculture.
Rock music by definition is based on 4/4 time signature 12-Bar R&B (Blues), with a back beat provided by drums, and a rhythm provided by bass and guitar.
Goth music does not require any of these elements, it can include any imaginable rhythm, combination of rhythms or polyrhythms, or can be completely devoid of all rhythm, with no key or time signature, no beat, no drums, no bass, no guitar or any stringed or percussion instruments of any kind. Goth can be a drone or complete silence. Goth can be white noise or ambient sound or absolutely anything the artist requires it to be as an instrument of expression. Goth music is a free art form, which can be as avant gard, experimental or as conventional as the artist composing it.
The term "Rock" therefore has no meaning in such a context. The concept of Genre itself is nothing short of a pair of creative handcuffs without a key.
Virtually all existing "Goths" agree that the term Goth is now universally applied to both goth music and goth subculure, without the need for any genre tags. The term "genre" being solely a marketing tool for the music industry. 79.230.107.17 ( talk) 23:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I did a googlebook search on pussible names for this article. "goth music" gets 1,730 results, "goth rock" gets 2,570 results, and "gothic rock" gets 5,210 results. I also found a few hundred results for "pop-goth". Dimadick ( talk) 11:36, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
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I really haven't heard of anyone call it "Gothic rock" I do know many sources that do explain it being called Goth Rock
Is there any good reason why this shouldn't be done? The "rock" seems totally arbitrary to me. I never see this genre referred to as "gothic rock". It's almost always "goth" and sometimes "goth-pop".-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 01:49, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
It's worth remembering that this entire article is about a British phenomenon which we Brits first called both Goth and Gothic in its formative years 1979-80, during which both Siouxsie and Bauhaus disowned the term even as key figures referenced in the "Origins" section began using it. Of course the term had echoed around the American scene during the 1960s-70s and provides a sounding board for this article, but the intro does refer explicitly to a later chapter in British music history. I'm afraid American observers frequently insist on asserting their own terms at Wikipedia for aspects of British subculture misguidedly! Just sayin'. 217.155.200.241 ( talk) 13:17, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Finn Bhul @ 103.176.81.112 ( talk) 15:06, 8 December 2023 (UTC)