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This keeps getting deleted (by the same users) and then added back by others. The article doesn't need a whole lot of detail about the Fallout game, but Fallout is a fairly major game series. It's no different than the Albuquerque article mentioning the city being the setting of Breaking Bad, or Bugs Bunny "taking a wrong turn" there. Maybe even more so, since Albuquerque's a much larger city and most people have probably never heard of Goodsprings unless they live in the area or from Fallout: New Vegas. And even then they might not have known it's an actual place. And it meets WP:POPCULTURE: "For example, it is appropriate if a city's article mentions films, books or television series in which the city is itself a prominent setting". PaulGS ( talk) 08:13, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- Irrelevant here - put a note in the game article if you wish.
Vsmith (
talk) 14:49, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. Not to belabor the obvious, but a video game is not a book, film, or television series. Further,
OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is seldom a compelling argument on Wikipedia. But to speak to that a bit, Breaking Bad was actually shot in Albuquerque. People can watch that series and see actual scenes from that community. As opposed to CG. To be good content for an "In popular culture" section, a bit needs to inform the reader about the community more than it does about the cultural item being added. Simple truth is a person knows nothing more about this community by knowing that a game designer chose to set part of their game in their fictionalized version of the community.
John from Idegon (
talk) 16:41, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- How does that apply anything to anything that a game is not a movie is not a book? Well it's not a horse either, i don't see how any wiki rule applies here from your statement 89.65.49.202 ( talk) 23:52, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
- The policy applies to all sorts of things, not just books, films, and TV series (and it's "for example", which means it applies to other things, too). What's the difference between Fallout: New Vegas - which, according to its article, sold 5 million copies with sales of $300 million - and a TV series? Video games these days aren't just mindless entertainment, and while pop culture sections shouldn't mention every time the name of a town or person or event pops up, a major video game featuring a town nobody's otherwise heard of is pretty notable. It's fiction, but so is the Albuquerque of Breaking Bad - it's not a documentary, and while the buildings might be real, the events certainly aren't. The mention here tells the player of the game who looks up the article that, yes, the place does exist, which says more about the town than the game.
PaulGS (
talk) 18:48, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- But people who are interested in the town from the game can look it up without any mention of the game in this article. You could even Wikilink the articles name in the games article. None of that is a logical arguement. BTW, the article on the community existed well before the game did. There are literally thousands of reasons people might want to find out more about the community.
John from Idegon (
talk) 19:04, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- Of course the article on the community existed before the game did. The town's much older; the game came out in 2010. And it's not just a mention of the town in the game, but several actual buildings, including the saloon, are featured. If it's irrelevant that a town is featured in a work of fiction, then when, in your opinion, would it be relevant? Maybe there are other reasons to look up Goodsprings - maybe New York City has thousands; not so sure about Goodsprings - but why remove one? I suppose this page needs to be deleted, too? Boston_in_fiction PaulGS ( talk) 19:10, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- But people who are interested in the town from the game can look it up without any mention of the game in this article. You could even Wikilink the articles name in the games article. None of that is a logical arguement. BTW, the article on the community existed well before the game did. There are literally thousands of reasons people might want to find out more about the community.
John from Idegon (
talk) 19:04, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. Not to belabor the obvious, but a video game is not a book, film, or television series. Further,
OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is seldom a compelling argument on Wikipedia. But to speak to that a bit, Breaking Bad was actually shot in Albuquerque. People can watch that series and see actual scenes from that community. As opposed to CG. To be good content for an "In popular culture" section, a bit needs to inform the reader about the community more than it does about the cultural item being added. Simple truth is a person knows nothing more about this community by knowing that a game designer chose to set part of their game in their fictionalized version of the community.
John from Idegon (
talk) 16:41, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
There are no actual buildings in the game. No matter how much progress has been made in CG, you cannot transport an actual structure into a game environment. Your arguments are not compelling, and the simple fact is you have no consensus to make your proposed changes. Ta. John from Idegon ( talk) 20:57, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- By that logic, Breaking Bad isn't a reference either. No matter how much progress has been made in photography, you cannot transport an actual structure into a video.
173.72.82.153 (
talk) 21:54, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- To the extent that extra folks weighing in carries any weight, I'm in favor of inclusion. The
WP:POPCULTURE definition explicitly includes videogames. The treatment of Goodsprings in the game is fairly in-depth (in that many of the prominent buildings were reproduced in the virtual world with a high degree of attention to detail), and the featuring within the game is extremely prominent in that Goodsprings forms the setting for the beginning of the game, meaning that *every* player of the game encounters Goodsprings. Although "notability" on the part of the creative work is (explicitly) not necessarily required as a condition of
WP:POPCULTURE, the game series itself does have a substantive article here on Wikipedia, and had substantial success - to the extent videogames count at all as cultural references (and they explicitly do), it's one of the biggest. Since the Goodsprings article has no other cultural references listed, there isn't exactly a danger of a runaway in-popular-culture section, the other main caveat of
WP:POPCULTURE. So I'm mostly detecting an inappropriate aversion to videogame references in general, which I hope someone with more Wikipedia experience will eventually set straight here. A short reference that doesn't need to get into the plot of the game would be entirely appropriate - "Goodsprings forms the setting for the beginning of the 2010 videogame Fallout: New Vegas. Many of the town's historical buildings are reproduced in the game with a substantial attention to detail."
73.180.232.101 (
talk) 18:57, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- I'm going to reopen this because there are some watching this page that, as mentioned above, have an inappropriate aversion to counting video games as pop culture references. Also as mentioned above, the
WP:POPCULTURE page explicitly cites video games as a reference that may be made, and the source I referenced that displays the connections between Goodsprings proper and the Goodsprings of Fallout: New Vegas fits the
WP:POPCULTURE standard for sourcing, but further corroboration certainly exists. By my count, the users on this talk page that are opposed to drawing a connection stand at 2, and those in favor of inclusion stand at three, so your consensus argument is no longer valid.
Evanash24 (
talk) 16:23, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- With respect, consensus is not a vote. Even if it were, 60% is at best a weak consensus, and my comments below make it 50%. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 16:19, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- I'm going to reopen this because there are some watching this page that, as mentioned above, have an inappropriate aversion to counting video games as pop culture references. Also as mentioned above, the
WP:POPCULTURE page explicitly cites video games as a reference that may be made, and the source I referenced that displays the connections between Goodsprings proper and the Goodsprings of Fallout: New Vegas fits the
WP:POPCULTURE standard for sourcing, but further corroboration certainly exists. By my count, the users on this talk page that are opposed to drawing a connection stand at 2, and those in favor of inclusion stand at three, so your consensus argument is no longer valid.
Evanash24 (
talk) 16:23, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
- To the extent that extra folks weighing in carries any weight, I'm in favor of inclusion. The
WP:POPCULTURE definition explicitly includes videogames. The treatment of Goodsprings in the game is fairly in-depth (in that many of the prominent buildings were reproduced in the virtual world with a high degree of attention to detail), and the featuring within the game is extremely prominent in that Goodsprings forms the setting for the beginning of the game, meaning that *every* player of the game encounters Goodsprings. Although "notability" on the part of the creative work is (explicitly) not necessarily required as a condition of
WP:POPCULTURE, the game series itself does have a substantive article here on Wikipedia, and had substantial success - to the extent videogames count at all as cultural references (and they explicitly do), it's one of the biggest. Since the Goodsprings article has no other cultural references listed, there isn't exactly a danger of a runaway in-popular-culture section, the other main caveat of
WP:POPCULTURE. So I'm mostly detecting an inappropriate aversion to videogame references in general, which I hope someone with more Wikipedia experience will eventually set straight here. A short reference that doesn't need to get into the plot of the game would be entirely appropriate - "Goodsprings forms the setting for the beginning of the 2010 videogame Fallout: New Vegas. Many of the town's historical buildings are reproduced in the game with a substantial attention to detail."
73.180.232.101 (
talk) 18:57, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Reviewing this, I find no compelling reason to include the material debated here. The reason; sourcing. Yes, I've read the comments about sourcing to a video game. It's not compelling. If it were, then we could include similar material in every article mentioned/displayed in a video game. For example, we could therefore include a pop culture section mention in Meigs Field from Microsoft Flight Simulator 2002. The key here isn't that the game uses Goodsprings as a location. The key is whether such use is significant enough to draw attention in the real world from secondary sources, which are lacking in this case. The one citation used to support this passage links to a blog. That is not a reliable source (see WP:USERG). Looking at the Fallout: New Vegas article, there's two mentions of Goodsprings, and the only citation that supports them goes to this Gamespy article, which doesn't mention Goodsprings. There's just nothing to go on here other than that the game uses the town, to which the real world has done a collective "so what?", as there are apparently no secondary sources that indicate this is somehow notable. I of course mean no disrespect to those who wish to include this material. The reality is there just isn't anything to go on here. Find some secondary sources supporting the notability of this in the real world, and we can reconsider. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 16:19, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- Since count of comments that are pro/anti inclusion is coming up, put me down in the anti-camp. I've removed Fallout references previously, but haven't commented here before. I'm no more averse to counting video games as pop culture references than anything else (TV, film, music, etc.). I am averse to pop culture references in general. They're usually unsourced or not reliably sourced (the blog cited in the most recent additions is not a reliable source). Pop culture references are often excessively detailed; there's no need to give the timeline of the Fallout universe, the only appropriate mention would be "Goodsprings is the starting location in Fallout: New Vegas". For those who are pro-inclusion, ask yourself, should every real world location that appears in Fallout mention that fact in the article about that location? And should the article on Las Vegas mention every one of the thousands of pop culture mentions of that city? If not, where do you draw that line? Plantdrew ( talk) 16:23, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
"Should the article on Las Vegas mention every one of the thousands of pop culture mentions of that city" is a silly argument. Whether or not an information is mentioned depends on its relative importance with regard to the subject of the article. Not every single casino in Las Vegas is mentioned by name in the Las Vegas article, either. But if a small community has a casino, it will get mentioned in the economic activity part of the article about this small community, because it's important at the scale of such a community. Not every single political decision of a long reigning king will be mentioned, but the involvement of a local politician in the implementation of some notable law will be. Not every movie filmed in Paris will be mentioned, but if an otherwise fairly obscure castle has been the setting for some half famous movie, it will be. To be featured in a world famous video game is extremely notable for a village of 200, while it would totally not be for Las Vegas or Paris. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.97.254.193 ( talk) 22:13, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
- I'm fine with a simple sentence as mentioned above and understand the trepidation of excessively worded pop culture references (having just trimmed an article on it) but we need to consider what we're arguing. The blog source I provided draws explicit connections between Goodsprings proper and the one developed by Obsidian. The Goodsprings page itself is barely more than a stub, so I'm really having trouble understanding the harm in adding a reference to the town's major inclusion in a popular video game. It's not like the inclusion of a single sentence will break the Goodsprings page or open the floodgates. To the rhetorical question on Las Vegas, would a "Las Vegas in popular culture" page not solve that issue?
Evanash24 (
talk) 17:20, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- The blog is not a reliable source. As mentioned, please see WP:USERG. It's meaningless to our purposes here. It does not matter if it draws connections or not. If you had an article, say, from the New York Times that noted similar, fine. But that's not the case here. It's not an issue of 'harm' by adding one line. Whether we had 1000 such entries or 1, it's still trivial unless it can be supported by reliable secondary sources. So far, that does not appear to exist. Find it, and then there is perhaps a way forward to include it. Without it, no. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 18:35, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- I too would support the one line Plantdrew proposed, that support pending a consensus on a reliable secondary source. If there has been any journalistic analysis of economic impact of the game on the community, I could support a line on that also. The main problem I've had with all the previous attempts have been they were either unsourced, or sourced to an unreliable source, or were heavily promotional of the game. The manufacturer, the developer, gameplay or anything in the way of details are more about the game than the community and in some part are promotional of the game. I got a big problem with any
COATRACKing of promo material into settlement articles.
John from Idegon (
talk) 19:54, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- In my opinion there should be a paragraph about the game should be included, mostly because 99% of people interested in this town look up this article because of the game. 89.65.61.228 ( talk) 20:12, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
- Its role in the notable game of Fallout: New Vegas is inherently notable in that it's where the game starts, so it's a part of the experience for every single player. Include. Robert ( talk) 23:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC
- I guarantee most people that visit this page either are locals or have heard about Fallout: New Vegas. Removing any reference to the game is dumb as it is a fact this town is included in game.
Cryna2 (
talk) 16:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
- My edits were reverted, but in case anyone wants to use this as a source for future discussion, putting link to academic paper Fallout: New Vegas and Meme Tourism in Goodsprings, Nevada’s Pioneer Saloon here. Paper does a good job of explaining why the connection between the two is important, and the town itself has used it as a reverse meta tourism attraction. Below are not valid source links, but for reference:
- I too would support the one line Plantdrew proposed, that support pending a consensus on a reliable secondary source. If there has been any journalistic analysis of economic impact of the game on the community, I could support a line on that also. The main problem I've had with all the previous attempts have been they were either unsourced, or sourced to an unreliable source, or were heavily promotional of the game. The manufacturer, the developer, gameplay or anything in the way of details are more about the game than the community and in some part are promotional of the game. I got a big problem with any
COATRACKing of promo material into settlement articles.
John from Idegon (
talk) 19:54, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- I'm fine with a simple sentence as mentioned above and understand the trepidation of excessively worded pop culture references (having just trimmed an article on it) but we need to consider what we're arguing. The blog source I provided draws explicit connections between Goodsprings proper and the one developed by Obsidian. The Goodsprings page itself is barely more than a stub, so I'm really having trouble understanding the harm in adding a reference to the town's major inclusion in a popular video game. It's not like the inclusion of a single sentence will break the Goodsprings page or open the floodgates. To the rhetorical question on Las Vegas, would a "Las Vegas in popular culture" page not solve that issue?
Evanash24 (
talk) 17:20, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
The souvenir Package that they sell there as part of the meta-tourism Souvenir Section they have set up on the bar 182.158.83.164 ( talk) 17:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
-
182.158.83.164, Thanks for adding the citation, but it looked to me like that paper was not an article in a peer-reviewed journal or in a edited newspaper, so it is not
WP:RS. It seems to me that keeping mention of Fallout out of these Nevada place articles is an uphill battle. It is just another version of
WP:TRIVIA, which seems to have a wide variety of opinions. BTW - I see that
Mojave_Desert#In_popular_media and
Southern_Nevada_Correctional_Center#In_popular_culture both have links to the game.
Cxbrx (
talk) 18:38, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
- That academic paper (Schwartz) states "the number of Fallout fans showing up in Goodsprings on any given day is dwarfed by the number of ghost hunters..."; apparently if pop culture references are going to be included at all, it would be more important to mention Ghost Adventures which had an episode on the Pioneer Saloon. Schwartz doesn't provide any hard numbers on tourism. I presume Monica Nordhof's observations on tourists account for the first paragraph on page 14, but Schwartz only cites personal communication with her on the previous page. Plantdrew ( talk) 03:17, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- Broadly, my objection to pop culture mentions is that it is often simply reiterating to readers what prompted them to read a Wikipedia article in this first place. Absolutely there are a large number of readers of this article that are interested in Goodsprings because it was an important location in Fallout. Do these readers really need to be told it was featured in Fallout? Do readers who watched Ghost Adventures care at all that it was featured in Fallout? Some Wikipedia articles see view spikes from Reddit. Should the Redddit thread be mentioned in the article? Current news events are covered in a variety of news sources. Should there be a separate section in a current (or no-longer current) event article that explicitly calls out Fox News, BBC, or the New York Times as having coverage that led people to the Wikipedia article? Clearly not, any relevant journalism sources could be cited in the article, but wouldn't be included in an "In journalism" section. Journalism isn't pop culture, but Saturday Night Live can address news stories within a week, South Park seems to be able to include current events while a season is under production, and CSI includes current crime stories when producing future seasons. Readers visiting articles about a recent event mentioned in SNL/South Park/CSI don't need told why they decided to read that article. Plantdrew ( talk) 03:41, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
-
182.158.83.164, Thanks for adding the citation, but it looked to me like that paper was not an article in a peer-reviewed journal or in a edited newspaper, so it is not
WP:RS. It seems to me that keeping mention of Fallout out of these Nevada place articles is an uphill battle. It is just another version of
WP:TRIVIA, which seems to have a wide variety of opinions. BTW - I see that
Mojave_Desert#In_popular_media and
Southern_Nevada_Correctional_Center#In_popular_culture both have links to the game.
Cxbrx (
talk) 18:38, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
I find it simply mind-boggling that there is significant pushback against having Fallout information in the article. Get real, people! Fallout is as much international fame the good town of Goodsprings has had and will ever have, and a little more information will not hurt anyone. And if you believe a video game is somehow a lesser form of pop culture than others, you are not living in the 2020s. ScalarField ( talk) 06:28, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Every other year, when I play FalloutNV again, I come to this talk page and realise, that this feud by a few people is still ongoing. A small village in the middle of nowhere is known around the world for popular mention in a game, which sold by the millions and is part of a even more popular series. The locals of Goodsprings earn money from this fame, there are events about the game series, the pub mentioned in the article sells merchandise and the general store does too. Even ten years after the game came out, people still travel there to see the real place. We've seen academic papers written about this connection. And yet a handful people come up with new reasons why not even a small mention about this is allowed. I've read a lot of much less interesting things mentioned in other articles, even towns pointing out, they've been named in a song, that was mildly popular decades ago or some old book. Wikipedia is a place to connect knowledge. So why are you people so against connecting Goodsprings to the videogame, which the town and its citizens insprired? 2003:DD:AF49:F500:21D8:FF7C:2914:26DD ( talk) 13:06, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Due to the popularity of Fallout New Vegas, the Pioneer Saloon had organized a Fallout themed event on the 8th of July 2022, Which depending on the success of the event might be a permanent occurrence once a year.
It’s time that this Wikipedia page finally allows a mention of Fallout New Vegas, since it’s an integral part of the towns tourism industry. KaiserNicer ( talk) 23:15, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
I have just put in the section on popular culture containing the mention to Goodpsprings in Fallout New Vegas, and the recently held Event in the town, with an accompanying (although cut-off) justification. Its a short and straight to the point section, and I see no reason why it should be removed. Its about time this years long bickering match between New Vegas fans and a few Wikipedia editors be ended. I've never even played New Vegas, I was just taking a look at the page when I saw this ridiculously long argument on the talk page; All about adding a sentence-long mention to a video game. PixelatedGalaxy ( talk) 13:18, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
A bit confused by the map. The smaller graphic that highlights Clark County is correct, but on the left, the wrong area is circled. Is there an easy way to amend this issue? Ethanscrocs ( talk) 04:10, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- @ Ethanscrocs: Looks pretty exact, see [1]. Where should it be? Magnolia677 ( talk) 15:05, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
I'm looking at the map, and while the orange/yellow map that highlights Clark County is correct, the red circle is not. The circled area is not within Clark County and is hours away from Goodsprings. Looks to be near Tonopah?
Goodsprings is nowhere near that far Southwest. It's 45 minutes away from Las Vegas, which is within the Northernmost area of Nevada.
(Hopefully this makes sense. New to Wikipedia. I'm a Vegas local who has visited Goodsprings many times.) Ethanscrocs ( talk) 15:17, 21 March 2024 (UTC)