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Any objections to removing the POV check Template currently at the top of the article? There does not seem to be a current discussion regarding POV issues for this article. Olessi 16:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
On the text below te remark this again. Good historical information (french, dutch, english, skandinavian, jewish,.. ones) scetch also the period before 9th centuru untill even year of Christ. Since (t)here the region already mixed be it keltic.. and gothic, traders from german and polish regions (nations as now did not exist, so more as 1 region each) danemark (wo gave name Dans(k)ri(c)k (rik=empire, also oldenglish Rick)) and perhaps dutch.. In the Freestate PeriodeS (before 1900 and after 1914 Versaille-1940) the english form Dantzig was used by most, dispit personal use of own forms with FreeState or (=)F.S. before. 'Danskrig' is the oldest form for the harbourvillage and farm-partregion, but a collection of old-polish 'Gan-dansik'(later G-dansk; Dansk =danishform of 'danish') and oldgerman Gaun-Dan[t*]zig (comp. germ.Zaun and jidish-jewic Gan for Garden; *=oldergerman+english, only-Z is used by natzi's); these regions incl. jewic stettle's aswell gothic pauverlands of Goth(M)aran [Pommeran/-sk(pl/pol.)/-ien(dt/germ.) later derived], G'dynialand was the abriviation for the area.. Like a Luxemburg, allthough many bilingual some german and polish regim periods forced their language while once in periods danish was the tradelanguage before 999 and in the Hansa periode, especial after Lùbeckrule; know Luebeck=L"ubeck is a danish area those days.
Goths came and were a swedish people with 3 main tribes splitted more than once, one called them Pruszic (old-scandin-avian). Dantzig was a collection of towns and (church-farm sites) of a group fisher, traders or farmers, some times of one of its backgrounds homogen (so alone german, polish or (keltic&Northgerm.)scandinavian) most were mixed (see polish-german combination names like Gustav Polanski(..)) but first to itself and later to tempor. Sweden (dif.ocasions) and later while harbour grown to add itself to HANSA (Handels Sammtwerka Associat.) (a dannishname!: translated, Trade Togetherwork Association; also dutch and english and perhaps some N.E. polish towns while below "Eastprussia" or "Kaliningrad" (then Teuto' Union unto Kurland, West Estia) was a thin coast part of polish tribes) it binded to L"ubeck(Luebeck) thEn still a Danishtown and congress"capital" of the semi-autonom hansacities.
That there were wars, that underline different people's there and theirs background spoiled by leaders (all sides possible) while once united in harmony (our Creators Purpose (Dieu prote'gera!)). Perhaps it is not in 1 line but merely in 1 dashed line part of 'Hansa', some like Dantzig used 'Hansa' as their nation having, like an orphan, none (nation as father), due supra-diversity. Danes formed a large group, not for nothhing most spoke german, the 'english' in those centuries (even polish elite spoke latin and german too), dannish (also by poles, esp. the elites, also farmers) was spoken too as imp. trade languages, ..'above english' even. Pommera' is an abbreviated polish word for Coastland, also some groups living there was given that name by nobles (poles, kels, goths,germans, danes together 'renamed') of course even before 10th century, the german variant was 'pommern', possibly this originally was no polish but gothic word, borrowed into polish and german languages. Pommar - GothaMar is a re-writing too as derriviation; Gothic G and P oftener became confused as analfabetism and making/"develloping(negativ)" worser handwriting growed. A mainly german speaking group exist not out of nowhere to majority, but it says not that the roots are german, these most danes & others (farmland SE polishmajority, SW more germanmixture during centu-ries, city huge complex mix (even english.. here?)) transformed to 'Dantziger' as own people.
As enlightning example: Also in Holland we are honest to see that it exists of more than 1 people, Lowersaxons in E&NE, Frisian in North&NNW, Chamavian (a East swiss tribe in Center, no mixed in largetownareas), Westfrisian(w. Amsterdam), Romanlegions partly remained and mixed with Lower-Franco-nian in 'B.R.A.bant'(Batavia-Romanum-Associatia Union=Bant (comp. word english-'band'), Chattons(Gelderland=Chatl're(yck; comp. 'rick'/empire)) in East, Limburg in SE and CentralRivers-landLowerfranconians else-where, Israel and States also have mixed and 'latino' or 'beduin', 'druz', arab and pal.area, Germ. has slavonicregions in East but mixed(!), Polska=Poland has mixed and discernable peoples area's in West, South, East and Former East. A name often grows per language to an own word, I needed before mend sum-ups for this lexographicview: Cologn or Lviv or Litzenstetl (jiddish/jew.large colonny!) are made of older historic words not of their language (non polish and non german). Dutch nationalist, alike American in Los Angeles and jews in Asdod like to let make speak the other-original natives their words (can it be more ego.. or retro-(as visa versa instead of old; orig.mean.) or "racistic"[dared]) so to the Frysians(own-people), Spaninish-mostly origin of West States, the Filistin=Palestine (Genesis10; Cham tribes in South Syria=motherland)) were here mixed with Cananites (son of Mitzraim = Egypt (oldhebr.+oldarab) and K/C-ittim(Cypriot-greek tribe)(Gen.10/Bible's PeoplesList)..
There is a simple (human)right that people may/'must' utter them in their -goodmend- habbits and tongues -socially-, in Israel and West US-States doublelanguage problemless is used like in Qu'ebec-Canada. To 'kill' one's culture and tongue is not different from rascism, in Bibletime it was done alone to wash away the ultimsins of a region offring alife humans to humiliate 'God', and only on His divine callculated-out all gracepossibilities' Will.
Reading Jewish History I read firstly on Pogroms they made on by God cursed Area's -however I dislike it, the other outcome was these fascistic anti'God' and severeantiIsrael folk were as dragons or false lions to a Sheep-Protector; no mercy can be hold there. With-it some progroms or deads by/of Israel were punished; because without consent or base: only Me belongs Right on Revenge 'God' ordered (also to other believers, in fact; After Christ Harmony and Nomore Hate is Motto).
Secondly Jews became victim to Pogroms by nearly every nation in Europe as partly expelled from Israel (by several Peoples like Ottomans) between 20 centuries, also Poland (as victim AND violator in 'jewish' perspectiv) slaughtered by thousands before German's came in 17th-18th and 19th and 20th Century by intervals, also before the attack of independent Dantzig (was not Poland & not Germany too!)in 1939 on a polish postoffice first where unbeneath where heavyweapons stored secretly. As often many proves are washed away by winning parties; natzi's and red's.. And 'one' is not asking its prosecuter 'please give me a receipt of what you is doing Sir/Madam!, I need it for the Bookings to account my history..' Since 'Thi-efs' and 'who-res' and none of real-angels still exists in Poland or Germany and else.. 'We are not that holy..'.
In orrigin (biblical-jewrab sources:) Slaves + Alt-Germans and Kelts are one; (not popular due past.. but..fact!) Gomer got as son of Jafeth(Pale('nicewhite' then as hebr.word expl.)-one)(a son of Noah) 3 sons, one as Father of West-Europe and inherit Gomer's name (comp.Gomez), by Syrian derriving-renamed G/Kimmeriyar(more forms) and by Romans to Germannic, so not alone the Germany peoples but West-Euro-pe, so historians fix 'Alt' or 'Grand' to it to sepparate/discern it from 'Germany', he was Asknaz ([A-]Scan[az]-Dina-Via reffers), his name means about 'menhood quick to firemight', his brother To(r)garmah makes more peoples the westturkic(other than altai- and central ottomanturks!=Meshech; Gen.10/Noach-Jafethline)[Torc=To[r]g], Slavonic, Amenic-Georgian(formermixed armenian&turks&slaves), and grand-Dagestan..,
The 3rd son Riphat became keltic and gipsy and paphlagonic lines, Zaraphat(oldarab-hebr. for France) points on the keltoi-Gallia who came via Greece who gave 'keltoi' ('people'(=hebr.goi-yim)) to them as name, Galtoi to Gallo to Gallia at Roman tongue those days, dispite the Alt-Germanic 'overrule' of majority of Upperfranconians and a large minority of Romans mixed in N.&S. and Goths(!) in South (Aquitaine=Ac-gothania; langue d'oc/acgothanie)..
Things Change, fuse and mixe, but let's not confuse and combine other search pillars even to test out own sources. By the Way, many poles in Silesia came deported from Eastpoland, the older generation partly feld E.Poland now Whiterussia and Ukraine and more,.. Also poles slaughtered germans or jews (polish and jew. sources!), also jewish milicias and nutral danzigmilicia's(..), were not fitting in western aswell eastern block historic books due coldwar (in fact started halfway in 1945. Even unto 1947 jews, dantziger, others and poles and germans were pogromed or persecuted in 'secret' with spurs washed away.. Few thiefs who write spures on floor, alike 'I, ..., was here'.. Films and Photo's (then still a proove and only hard to false) were made, also by independent...journalists from Abroad, the West. Also the Redcross give shocking figures on both sides.
In fact around 2.8 million jews were counted near precise, due exhumanition of dead-rotting 'deseasemaking' bodies, a mathomatic precise counting technik was tested criticallyright and approved succesful, by boddyheaps moyenne -with correction % factors from tests!-and more, the quickmade heaps, fotographed, were counted to neartruth statisticnumbers, recalculated to missing unto that time and later again unto 19fifties; 6 million was a prudent presentation scoretotal, possibly is 7 million more approaching truth/veritas; redcross-stillmis-sings callculated in, makes it more appreciatable. Lviv(jiddish Liembirk/dt.Lemberg) and (jewized, gan=garden/-court)'Gan-Danskzig' ("Danzig-Gdansk") had jewish majority respective great jew.minority. Streetfights were also in Danzig before Hitler invade, tensions between slavic and german in the 'over-walk' mixed/twilight area of both longtime have been since 9th century with longer silent periods and shorter ones.
Between 1892 unto 1937 tensions rose in the twilight-curtain between different populations of jews, gipsies, slaves, slovaks, czech, poles, etnic and new germans, etnic and newpoles (the 'new' often nationalists, the 'old' most peacefull at both sides)..
That France PM, Stalin, Churchill and Hitler had own unclean Agenda's has proven on high historical levels: all saw problems in commi's, jews, gipsies, economicweakness influence of other 'eagles'.. and wanted mosthard solutions for also veryselfish bennefit, like wildlife.. That a brownskirt who better should remained painter in Austria or see the beauty of palestine both ways, ..made such bloodymess is No justification to use similar tools -you reject too- to others to do; like in thora and in 'je-sus do christo' words(NT): if you not want that happens you desire it not another! (let G'd, deal with it in finalcourt, noone escape if not goodterms with Its messiah, in spiritual dimension, be evolutionless.) .. Respect is 2-3way(you-other-G'd) traffic not 1way, always! Also to armies in Mathew this 'je-sus' said: Don't plunder anymore - be content with your soldey(oldengl. salary)'!'
Friendships and Partnerships exchanged through each other. Nameing is part of the play which with out devine order in fact is culture murder and sinful, whatever price in exchange; sin can never be payed by sin, even in thora only the guilty had to pay price. Only the devine could render a whole people to curse, or bless. British research (redcross and armysecurity, special subunit, fenced) in Poland showed that most east of odraneisze were anti-natzi [a painful fact], most befriended with poles/czech [my personal polish friends agreed me] in harmony, also in Danzig-Gdansk as in Silesia or Sudetia and westmoldauland(oldBohemia), by fraud and cifferplay (internatl.redcross proofs).. In the Jerusalem Post, then Palestinian Post with british-jew-arabpalestine editorat / press-redaction, it mentioned these things (i have copies from Jerusalem dated back, reprinted 100%truely, from years 1932-2009, jubilea edition-book!, also streetfights and wrongs in Dantzig farbefore 1939.. proof). I have like many there aswell polish as german, as anglo and arab-jewish roots in my family, a polish grandma, an jew.english-germansilesian grandad, and could see a lot of nuance. Sometimes truth is remade to fake and visa versa. Good time-persons, proven nutral, are gold for an editor. The Jerusalem Post had those days pleasantgood ties with arab, polish, german and english sensor's.. Unhapilly the greates shouter oft choosing a misformed view of own-folk(-first, selflove,.. egoism); a better view on yourself is by other 'correct one's' done. Difficult at nations where none is very 'correct', selfcritism is hardly found and when it is often attacked and nutralism is often confused with 'own-view=truth' rethorik, making fable's or myths to truth for wishing or goodself-believe. An open press should research, like at any crime or question, daring unpleasant to accept if good points. Dutch, Poles, Germans, Slovaks, Czech.. They used oppression and own-people flood-in's and by languagelaws and sanctions to conformate other groups to the one in favour of the class. Polanes submitted also several polish tribes sometimes brutalny. Sometime a people get a chance to break out for its own freedom. Discussed and above name Curtainarea need such chance, from Latin America to Indonesia. Betweenforms of indepen-dence; as examples are NewBrunswick(Canada), Luxemburg and Switzerland, perhaps a german or pole can laugh, but in stability, economic, historic, social(no languagebattle), these laughing cannot met their countries, in fact brothers of past: Ashknaz and Togarma. A creator will laugh and love with better reason if consensus has been found in acceptance of diffrences (also of views, history and living),.
Calling an American-RedIndian as 'stinkyred' and visa versa the white 'white-ashes' in an interview, will in most deturn a goodtalk on arguments and behaved uttered emotions into 'totalcarbage' of both, minimizing value of a human, as any is in equal innerly the same by same creator.
Fora like this forum must not smite with mud, but in venerance accept that there are things unseen, unprooven, byond your dad or mom's view, learning to build independent one of your own; like our globe the opinion is on a move, escape from 1914-1961 cliche's and stereotypes. In Germany and Poland a great group is family of each other, Jews and Aranbs (also brothers; J'Ishmael and J'Is(h)rael-Jitzchaq[Isaac]). An english or old 'jiddish-keltic' or combi-name is possible, or Swiss-way of naming both apart next eachother or alone as 'free'. Or a mix of all!
'Prisoned in a War-Cramp' on oft propagandicloaden views? Also alied used propaganda of which part went in as truth in historian books, forget the minuses and try to find or remake plusses; minus factor minus is plus?! Yes, even je-sus and jewrab-farao joseph made of old enemies friends. Herein I tried to give answer to only selfjustifying (is poor) answers, without mentioning references or proofs(not always in history in direct but indirect manner, see text above) that be not okay.
In an old French Atlas I found between 1 st and 9th century enormous gabs between Poland and Germany and Czechs, often carto-made like that whereas these regions were whether un(/-der)populated or mixed; truth here is a mixed, saying too, that neighb. Poles and Germans or Czech had no authority there and area's in fact were free and mixed partly ruled and partly unruled.. This complexer variousness also gives history more beauty. Rulers often place history to their taste and hand, is that pure or truth? A pole, jew, german, anglo or dutch is a true person..? Can i generalise since still there are wrongfolk also, in plenitude, amoung all of these? (In fact all parties lost at a time and won only by 'grace' and (devine)help..) Wanted: A respect to find a new mid with sincere testamonies with an harmonyseeking attitude; history here is not black-white!
In the Land of Blinds One Eye is King (a dutch saying), but.. is he leading pure, fine and good? What be good for ALL?..
This Wer' from Holland impartialview was a reaction on next 3 lettersin this block
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.208.30.39 ( talk) 11:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Still going on, I see. I thought we settled all this a year or so back. I'll just offer once again my poetic comment:
Sca 21:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
oh, dear, that was a very angry post, please dont make a fool of Yourself, West Slavs territory was far more west than it is now- for example Berlin was founded by West Slavs and has a slavic name and so many of the towns/villages had polish name. As for Russians accepting their past I dont really see a point even if that was true(and it is not-actually far from that). As for Eaastern pre war Poland, hmm nation such as belarusias didnt exist, they didnt have any claims for independence, when asked where are they from in 1945 they would say:from here. They have been rusified. As for now Ukraine where did You get Your claims from?it depends what part of today's Ukraine we are talking about, in the cities -majority was polish more west more Poles in the villages. Also if You claim that since 1225 Gdańsk was a German city, going with Your logic most of todays Poland was either jewish,german, ukrainian, lithuanian,russian even swedish etc. But the fact is the nationality as we understand it now- back then didnt exist, all these people were invited by polish kings to settle, were given privileges by polish kings, were paying "taxes"to polish kings and were protected by polish army. This is how it worked back then, and I dont think that this makes these cities german or jewish or either. And for the next time think what is chauvinsm because You just showed a great example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.243.130.43 ( talk) 17:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
From the early 13th century until 1945 the vast majority of Danzig's population had been of German ethnicity and German had been the language officially spoken since its city charter was granted in 1224 under Lübeck Law. For example, in the course of a poll executed in 1923, 96% of the citizens of Danzig stated German to be their mother tongue whereas 3% stated Polish to be so. Danzig enjoyed far reaching privileges concerning its self-autonomy (e.g. laid down in the Second Peace of Toruń) while it was under protection of the Polish Crown between 1466 - 1793. Due to its mainly German population the city resisted the Counter-Reformation and stayed predominantly Protestant until 1945. In 1945, the surviving German population was expelled to the western parts of Germany and the city was eventually re-populated by Poles, many which had been expelled from territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union.
How can a poll from 1923 be an "example" of what was the ethnic make-up of the city in "early 13th century?
There was no actual "self-autonomy" only lower taxes for enterpreneurs.
How is German ethnicity related to "resisting the
Counter-Reformation"? And what about Bavaria and Austria (not to mention Switzerland)? How come German ethnicity didn't help them in "staying predominantly
Protestant"? Finally, why then East Prussian Mazurs remained "predominantly
Protestant" despite lack of German ethnicity?
Space Cadet 04:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, since when "Gdańsk" is not a historical name? Well, if it is, then why only "Danzig" needs to be emphasized as "historical"? See where I'm going with this?
Space Cadet 03:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I have been following this and many other discussions about German/Polish historical topics. It's a real shame that there is so much nastiness and vindictiveness it them. I am a Silesian by birth, of a German (Ostpommern) father and Polish (Cracow) mother. My education has primarily been in Australia from an independent perspective, so I see myself as an objective viewer.
Discussing pre-19th century political history is very fraught since the notions of nationality didn't emerge until then - in medieval Hanseatic Cracow (eg) the majority of people may have been German ethnically and linguistically, but most likely saw themselves as Cracovites (i hope that's correct) first, and under the subjectship of whoever was the King of Poland at the time - even though the king was sometimes not Polish: Henry Valois = French/Swiss; Stefan Batory = Hungarian; the Vasas = Swedish etc. The same applied more or less everywhere. The Plantagenets were French, Tudors Welsh, Stuarts Scottish... Even to this day the British royals are actually ethnically a German family.
The point I'm making is that prior to the rise of nationalism in the 19th century, ethnic nationality didn't count for much. Calling a city whose national provenance is controversial (like Gdansk/Danzig) Polish as opposed to German in a particular historical period primarily refers to royal belonging, not ethnicity or language. That's because the people at the time would overwhelmingly identify with that belonging rather than ethnicity. This is contrary to present day when such identification is primarily ethnic. That's why critique of pre 19C history aling nationalistic lines doesn't make sense.
There are really 4 dimensions to calling a place German, Polish or anything else. Ethnicity, language, geography and political belonging. You can call (eg) Prague a German city in some of these dimensions, and Czech/Bohemian in others.
There is too much nationalistic fervour in these articles and discussions. It is true that Polish authors may be unsympathetic to the cleansing of Germans postwar - that isn't necessarily their fault since such historical facts were largely glossed over in the Communist teaching of history. Likewise German authors understanably resent the postwar border moving to the Oder-Neisse. Neither is automatically being deliberately biased.
The point of WP is to state those views in an objective way. There is nothing wrong with an article including a section on differing historical views of a city.
I for one hope that the continuing integration of European countries in the EU will slowly assign to the past these nationalistically-motivated views of OUR JOINT history.
-- Gabe76 - 21 Feb 2007
English call the city Danzig
Hi Just like to point out that in England and the English speaking world our name for the city is Danzig, we don't call it Gdansk, that looks like a spelling mistake or typo. By and large the rule in English for cities in Eastern Europe that have multiple names, we use the German name, obviously as we have closer cultural ties and more importantly are languages are the same. English people often cant pronounce or say Slavic names for cities, we use the German name.
I don't see why English wiki should be forced to used diacritics. They have no place here. 70.77.38.177 ( talk) 06:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
There's a small edit war going over the inclusion of Danzig in the first line of the article. If you reference Talk:Gdansk/Vote, it was agreed that a reference to the name Danzig be made, but Gdansk take naming precedence since it has been the preferred name since the end of WWII. I'm making an edit to reflect the wishes of that vote and I think it is a decent compromise between the two disparate edits currently being made. Please talk here if you have an opinion.
avs5221 ( talk) 02:24, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually that was was just me being a silly bastard. I also editted two other articles under that IP. I was having a discussion with a silly Polish fellow and he bought it hook line and sinker! =D And yeah I'll screw around with wiki if I please, since you'll revert it anyway. :3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.253.121.85 ( talk) 05:38, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
Former is a very closed word. Dont you think? You`ve need to be more precise at this point. Former Danzig means that word Danzig connects it strongly to his past which was only "Danzigs past". Am I correct ? It`s an error. It`s like the way that Danzig was for example 1 thousand years german and was founded by Germans and his former name is Danzig but now it is Gdansk.. but in past times it was all Danzig...
A word former means that the beggining is - "also former". So looking in that way, there is very much probability that somebody could understand that in that way so there is an error at the start.
Sorry for my english :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stronghold2033 ( talk • contribs) 21:49, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi there, I've been looking all over for it, but I can't seem to find the name of the monetary unitl nor the name of the official language of Gdansk during 1466, Royal Prussia.
Does someone know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suhcej ( talk • contribs) 00:38, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
About coinage: After connection of coinage system with polish one in 1454 to 1492 in Gdansk only coin created locally was szeląg (idk how to translate this - you have it there: http://www.emonety.pl/page/historia-gdanskiej-mennicy-cz-1-p626.html). One szeląg was worth nominally 1/3 polish royal grosz (one with king's stamp). On awers there is a shield with polish eagle, on reverse is Gdansk's coat of arms (with exception of time of Polish-Gdansk war - in that time Gdansk created "siege coins" - http://www.trojmiasto.pl/wiadomosci/Monety-obleznicze-Najpierw-biliscie-teraz-kupujcie-n32499.html with different signs). Besides local coin in usage were officially coins of polish coinage system: półgrosz ("half a grosz"), grosz, półtorak ("one and half" of grosz), dwojak ("two" of grosz), trojak ("three" of grosz), czworak ("four" of grosz), szóstak ("six" of grosz), ort (worth 18 groszys), złoty polski ("polish golden one" worth 30 groszys), złoty czerwony ("red golden" alias "dukat" worth 4-6 "polish goldens") and other coins from nations trading with that trader' city.
About language: looking on papers from that time: German, Polish, Latin - practically on equal rights - depending on place where it was used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.25.87.75 ( talk) 11:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Simplified History of Gdańsk:
VII c. - ab. 970 - stateless SLAVIC Pomeranian
997 - baptism of Gdańsk
ab. 970 - 1271 - POLAND / SLAVIC Pomerania
1271-1272 - Brandenburg (German)
1272-1308 - POLAND
1308-1454 - Teutonic Order (German)
1410-1411 - POLISH city, Teutonic Orders castle
1454-1793 - POLAND
1793-1807 - Prussia (German)
1807-1815 - Free City
1814-1918 - Prussia / Germany
1919/20-1939 - Free City
1939-1945 - Germany
since 1945 and POLAND
Look up. You see that Gdansk was in the past polish city. It was like
750 years - POLAND, so why you still keep talking about FORMER German city? Change this word "FORMER GERMAN CITY" at the beggining of the article or be more precise at this point.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.87.129.100 ( talk) 22:00, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
With some history regarding multicultural character of the city, and resistance against Prussia. But of course the history section would need expansion further.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 13:47, 30 July 2010 (UTC) I removed debates and arguments about Anglo-Polish alliance being reason for hostitlies and Hitler's supposed peace attempts. They go beyond the scope of thie article and seemed to OR'is and argumentive as well as based on dubious sourcing.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 14:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Nazi leader Adolf Hitler in his famous speech on 22 August 1939: "The enemy did not expect my great determination. Our enemies are little worms, I saw them at Munich. [...] Now Poland is in the position I wanted. [...] I am only afraid that some bastard will present me with a mediation plan at the last moment." [1]. Dr. Loosmark 17:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
(od) Loosmark, I'm glad you're coming around a little and losing some of your intransigency. I'm sorry you're confused with the edit, perhaps it's a language issue. It's really not all that confusing, but even if it were, it would be better to make it less confusing (if its a punctuation or grammatical issue), than to "throw the baby out with the bathwater". The source is not Goebbels (he is brought in as a third party confirming the party of the first part (Hitler) by the party of the second part (Documents Relating to the Eve of the Second World War Volume II: 1938-1939 (New York: International Publishers), 1948). Read it. As for Dr. Goebbels (like yourself a "Dr.", except that he really did have a doctorate) they probably need to come up with a law similar to Godwin's Law concerning the man (although G's L works here anyway). Reliable sources have long used his diaries in many histories, monographs, etc. as a reference (probably in the the thousands by now). Even in Communist Poland. The problem with all of that is that when Goebbels writes something that seems to fit a particular POV it's fine, when he doesn't, all hell breaks loose and it shouldn't be used. As for this article's history section discussing the city's relation to the start of WWII, these few sentences have pertinency. The way all of this was handled by MyMolobo is the problem. Your input wasn't particularly helpful either. Maybe you should hold off in the future and let the person to whom the question was addressed respond first. Please note I have not reverted the edit up to now. This was as a courtesy to MyMolobo and give him time to respond. Dr. Dan ( talk) 20:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I suggest moving your discussion to article about Causes of Second World War, this is clearly beyond the scope of this article.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:36, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
(OD) Radeksz, when you make a remark like "Also, please don't make threats", I see it's better to end this and any further discussions with you. Enough is enough. Try someone else on. Dr. Dan ( talk) 21:54, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
There's a main article History of Gdansk. I think parts of the current history section are too detailed and should be moved to the main article instead of an expansion here. HerkusMonte ( talk) 08:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Why is it that the only section removed was about Poles in the city, while leaving the rest untouched as it is?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 09:14, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
All online sources dealing with the fate of the Jewish Community of Danzig (please check the ref section there) provide totally different numbers than this (offline) Polish book: Żydzi na terenie Wolnego Miasta Gdańska w latach 1920-1945:działalność kulturalna, polityczna i socjalnaGrzegorz Berendt Gdańskie Tow. Nauk., Wydz. I Nauk Społecznych i Humanistycznych, 1997 page 245 Has anybody any idea why? And how to present both contradicting views? HerkusMonte ( talk) 17:39, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
The famous Gdańsk/Danzig vote is now located at Talk:Gdansk/Vote. However there is no talk page. I would like to discuss interpretations of the vote. This is not the place for the discussion, or to put it an other way, I am not even going to read this article.
I will give a hypothetical example of the kind of discussion that may follow. I have placed the Gdańsk vote tag on Talk:Vyborg as I feel the same rules also apply to that article. No one has protested. In the Finnish language Wikipedia I have written an article on the German community of Wiborg during its Finnish and Swedish rule. (See fi:Viipurin saksankielinen porvaristo) I might translate the article into English. I may want to call this new article German community of Viipuri, by the Finnish name of the city Viipuri, as every last Finnish resident left when the city was handed over to the Soviet Union after the Moscow armistice. Someone may however argue that article should be called German community of Vyborg – by the Russian name, as some Germans now live in Vyborg, and they should not artificially be excluded from article...
I am sure you do not want to hear any more of the argumentation, not here at least -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 22:35, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
We're having a minor revert war over the name used for the prince-bishop of the place now known as Olomouc, which was known as Olmütz in German. This prince-bishopric was a vassal of the Bohemian Crown within the Holy Roman Empire.
If anyone has strong feelings on the matter, they may wish to contribute to the conversation at Talk:Prince-Bishop#Nationalist / anti-nationalist place naming, where I am trying to seek consensus. — OwenBlacker ( Talk) 13:50, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi just wondered whether or not we should be naming cities with their English name on the English Speaking Wikipedia. First of all i'm going to keep this to Europe to avoid any more problems. Shouldn't there be some sort of convention or rule.
following on from these, shouldn't Gdansk be Danzig —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.241.73.130 ( talk) 13:32, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Population
Hey there i found a litle mistake about population in this city ( where i come from :D ) , and at Polish Wikipedia the population is about 457.000 people in June 2010 . I know what i say because there is many traffics in the city , high schools in Gdansk are full of students ,so i think you could edit the population .
Thanks
Adrian Witkowski , Gdansk . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.21.77.220 ( talk) 19:50, 28 April 2011 (UTC) http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gda%C5%84sk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.21.122.95 ( talk) 09:23, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Quoted content or titles are not subject to Gdańsk vote-only content entered by Wikipedians. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:38, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
To my knowledge, there is no particular explanation for the word Gdansk. Gdansk is Kashubian and that would imply it is not a Polish foundation. Similar to Gdansk is Gdynia or Gdingen, the two locations are close to each other and obviously the beginning with Gd has a significance. It is said that Gd refers to "Goth" or "gothic", which would indicate that originally there was a Gothic settlement. The ending ansk in Gdansk doesn't sound Polish either. Thereby, Gdansk was taken over as a Kashubian word into the related west slavic language of Polish for a urban location during the tribal era. Basically Danzig and Gdansk are etymologically the same for something that predates the arrival of slavic tribes. 141.0.8.157 ( talk) 19:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
For WP:POLAND. Reasons: insufficient references (at least one section unreferenced and tagged). In fact, considering a number of such section I am going to replace this template with a generic, article wide, refimprove needed one. insufficient coverage (at least one section - famous people - is just a see also section with no prose). Education and science is a list, too. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 22:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
The article jumps from the baptism of the city's inhabitants to the 12th century. Shouldn't there be an inclusion of the Pomeranian revolt against Sieciech?
in 1308, the town was besieged by Brandenburg and the Teutonic Knights were hired by the Polish king Władysław I the Elbow-high to restore order. Subsequently, they took over control of the town and killed many of its inhabitants.[14] Primary sources record a massacre of 10,000 people, but the exact number killed is subject of dispute in modern literature:[15] Some authors accept the number given in the original sources,[16] while others consider 10,000 to have been a medieval exaggeration.[15] The massacre was used as evidence by the Polish crown in a subsequent papal lawsuit.[15][17]
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.231.99.85 ( talk) 20:39, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
The heading should be Danzig, as it is the most common term used in the English language
[11] → please see:
WP:COMMONNAME --
IIIraute (
talk) 13:13, 12 May 2012 (UTC) I agree, the heading should be Gdansk.--
IIIraute (
talk) 14:05, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Accorrding to your sources the usage of "Danzig" is declining since the end of the Cold War. What about the infamous Vote? Do you want another one? Skoranka ( talk) 13:33, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
This was 7 years ago - research tools have improved - also, the vote was not close at all:
Could you please also provide some evidence on why the ngram result is "flawed" and maybe some evidence that Danzig is not the most common term used in the English language for the last 200 years. I hope the results of the vote in favour of Danzig between 1308 and 1945 are properly applied in all of the articles. -- IIIraute ( talk) 16:56, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Please comply with the Gdansk-vote: "The first reference of one name for Gdansk/Danzig in an article should also include a reference to the other name, e.g. Danzig (now Gdansk, Poland) or Gdansk (Danzig). All later occurrences of the name follow the rules for the periods as voted above." [13] and "For locations that share a history between Germany and Poland, the first reference of one name should also include a reference to other commonly used names, e.g. Stettin (now Szczecin, Poland) or Szczecin (Stettin)." [14] -- IIIraute ( talk) 21:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Seems a little absurd that "Danzig" is barely mentioned in the article at all. I'm fine with the article being under Gdańsk but the first line ought to be something like "Gdańsk, also known by its German name Danzig...." LRT24 ( talk) 22:56, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
As the European Football Championship is underway in Poland, almost every English news source seems to be using Gdansk. eg. BBC, Reuters, etc. It looks like the usage of Danzig in English may be more or less gone. 121.45.101.156 ( talk) 09:13, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
I think that post above proves that page should be named Gdansk not Danzig.
I'd like to acknowledge that I have nothing to do with Wikipedia edition&creation whatsoever and i truly do not now the rules.
I felt however I should add something to that discussion.
While it may be true that to year 45' Danzig was the more common name for Gdansk - it is not anymore. The proper name for the city is Gdansk and while I do know that this article concerns history of the city it also is about the ACTUAL city and if someone wanted to visit Gdansk he/she should know that current name is Gdańsk.
Also, while i know that Wikipedia strives to be completly nonpolitical you should acknowledge that being one of the most (if not just the most)important sources of knowledge in WWW it simply is not as it creates beliefs. Being Wikipedia's often user I realize that if I read something here, and it's outside of my area of expertiese, I tend to take it as true.
By Naming the article Danzig, editors create a belief, if not concious then sub-councious, that Danzig is the proper-er name for this city. Given Poland's and even more Gdansk's complicated history Wikipedia should not create any addiotional fuss about the current geopolitical localization of the city. It simply is not German, or even for that matter free, city. It's Polish.
Also, even though I don't quite understand method of your searches I conducted my own pretty simple research: "Danzig" googled with english-only filter came up with 9 970 000 records "Gdansk" googled with english-only filter came up with 29 300 000 records I believe that numbers speak for themselves.
Peter.
Re this: [15]
This contradicts other modern sources, for example this (which actually gives 970's rather than 980's). Also, the page from the source being cited is not available online. Please provide the actual text from the source which supports the claim. It's possible that this is referring to a different aspect of the town. Volunteer Marek 05:53, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Actually, nm, just noticed that this is the same banned anonymous user as always. Volunteer Marek 05:54, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
"The Town Hall spire, with a gilded statue of King Sigismund II Augustus of Poland on its pinnacle (installed in 1561), dominates Long Market skyline."
Can anyone explain what appears on Google Street View? The image date is August 2011, and the Town Hall, as seen from the Long Market, seems to be missing the top of its spire. Did it suffer some kind of calamity, or was it removed to be maintained/renovated/repaired? Is it back up there now? Kelisi ( talk) 16:19, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
It does say at the top of the page that non-sourced material may be challenged and removed, but you have not challenged the sourced material, you have simply removed it. And done so, after hollering about "POV" because I've put a few citation needed tags out there and removed a few vague/misleading sentences, i.e. that Meswin II had only one brother, that the forces under the descendant of Meswin II's father, who tried to take the city in 1301, could somehow be referred to as "the Danes".
In conclusion, please find a source for your claim that the Kingdom of Poland held Gdansk until 1308. Is it just that it doesn't fit with your easy interpretation? Every time Prussia had a name change, we broke it into a separate heading. And the Order State era of control is not lumped together under the era of "Kingdom of Prussia" control, either, even though it is technically, at first, headed by at least some of the same authorities.-- 92.228.247.104 ( talk) 18:02, 27 October 2012 (UTC)-- 92.228.247.104 ( talk) 18:02, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
The sentence is Primary sources[citation needed] record a massacre[14] of 10,000 people. Now, I could be wrong but the I'm assuming the "[14]" isn't just referencing the word "massacre" but also the primary sources. Do you have access to the source? Have you verified what exactly is the case? Or are you just assuming and tagging? This game of "I'm gonna slap
citation needed tags into every other word of text I don't like" IS disruptive (and I believe you tried playing the same game over at
Konigsberg).
Volunteer Marek 18:39, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Brandenburgian claims - you added "Mestwin II, pledged an oath of fealty to the margrave of Brandenburg" - he did make a feudal oath, but for Świecie and Białogard, not Gdansk. Volunteer Marek 18:48, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
The other tagging: 997–1308: [[Kingdom of Poland (1025–1385)|Kingdom of Poland] - yes, during this period Poland wasn't always a kingdom, sometimes it was a duchy and in the 13th century it fragmented into semi-autonomous duchies. These were still nominally under the rule of the Grand Duke, several of whom held Pomerania as part of their direct realm. The thing is that sources often just describe the state in entire period here as "Kingdom" just for ease of exposition (while not technically accurate). I'd be fine to changing "Kingdom of Poland" to Kingdom or Duchy of Poland or something. Volunteer Marek 18:58, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Example:
Volunteer Marek 19:03, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
<<- It geolocates to the same city and your edit are very similar, but like you say, whatever. Adding in citation needed tags to every other word of a sentence IS disruptive. And seriously, the petition to the pope IS a primary source. We are also not arguing here about the extent of the massacre, whether it was 2000 or 10000, but what the primary sources claim. And the claim, correct or incorrect - and there is a qualification in the very next sentence - is that it was 10000. Don't bring Giertych into this, who cares about him? Is James Minahan also a "romantic nationalist fantasist"? Is Raphael Lemkin? Edward Thomas Appleton? Anyway, if you have an actual source for the claim that the city's population was 2000 please present it. I'd be quite happy to see an estimate of Gdansk's population going that far back because I've looked high and low and could not find anything close to that level of precision. Otherwise you're just making stuff up.
The incorrect part about Brandenburg IS that it implies that Mestwin held it as a fief of Brandenburg, which is incorrect. You haven't even sourced the lien part. Just claimed it. Unsourced information (and here we're not talking about a portion of a sentence but a whole thing) can and should be removed.
Finally, as to the kingdom topic, as you are yourself admitting we have a source there. And you can't just dismiss it because it doesn't agree with your pre-set view of the situation. Like I said we can change it to "Kingdom or Duchy" if that will make you happy. Volunteer Marek 21:32, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek 20:20, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
1. I have no idea what you are talking about. 2. Find the source that talks about a lien. 3. I already said I'm fine with referring to the papal bull rather than "primary said". 4. In the 13th century the idea of "Poland" is a bit fluid because of the feudal fragmentation of the state. Still for the most part it was part of fragmented Poland. I believe I changed the wording there too (though it was a week or two ago so i don't remember exactly.
Volunteer Marek 18:24, 10 November 2012 (UTC)