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Adapted from 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica.
Isn't this title in variance with our policy of not incudling titles in article names? RickK 05:56, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think the facticity of this article needs to be checked-out and brought into line with modern historical scholarship. I'm reading Joseph J. Ellis' recent biography of Washington, "His Excellency, George Washington" which states on page 116 that "Steuben's title was a complete fabrication, as was his claim of intimacy with Frederick the Great and his rank of general in the Prussian army." 69.216.236.40 05:00, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Some facts are a bit off. Steuben couldn't have sat in on Major John Andre's trial in 1781. Andre was tried and executed October 2, 1780!
I would add one more criticism. The article makes note that Steuben served on the Prussian General Staff. Others here have questioned his claim as having the rank of general, but also, the entire concept of the "General Staff", and its influence on organization and command structure, in the Prussian military was unknown at the time. That is, the Prussian General Staff was not established until long after Steuben's time there. It didn't arise at all until after the Napoleonic Wars and didn't reach its perfection until Moltke reorganized it in Bismark's early years. That reference should be changed. I cannot imagine Steuben lied about having a position that did not exist and which no one would have recognized if he had. You can see the Wikipedia page on "General Staff" for corroboration. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
76.88.1.215 (
talk) 02:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Many sources claim September 17, 1730 to be von Steuben's birthday. Most notably, The Steuben Society of America. The lorax 18 July 2005
It should be noted, that the primary reason that Steuben agreed to fight for America (when he was not offered a commission, salary or even travel expenses) was that he was facing charges of homosexual sodomy. [unsigned]
I have read numerous accounts (here is a link with some documentation) that Von Steuben's aides were more than that. Should this, or at least this controversy and the historical discussion of it, not be mentioned? http://www.geocities.com/bobarnebeck/baron.html Amherst5282 05:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
In the History Channel documentary on The Revolutionary War, "Forging an Army" (Original Air Date: July 8, 2006) they mention he was turned down for French, Spanish, and German Armies because of "rumors" of having sex with men. Here's another source that he was gay: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_09/007197.php. There are several other examples on the net. Plus he was repeatedly brought up in the "gays in the military" debate. This is an essential part of his history because it explains his rejection in Europe which led him to come to America and make a dramatic difference in helping the Americans win the Revolution. As the History Channel put it, "In short, Von Steuben has come to the only army in the world that will have him: the Americans" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.69.70 ( talk)
Doesn't matter whether he was actually gay. If anything, the article needs to make mention of the historical speculation of his homosexuality, and its relation to his motivations for leaving Europe. Even if it was simple speculation, there is no doubt that the fact that people thought this about him was cause enough for him to leave- and therein lies the historical importance, and why it needs to be in the article... as a speculation. I'm not talking about a whole section devoted to the discussion, but a mention at the very least. Lastly, as a general practice- I find the History Channel a credible source, and even they acknowledged the speculation... and so should we. -- 71.194.128.49 10:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
“ | With the Peace of Hubertsburg, Captain von Steuben was discharged from the staff of General Friedrich Wilhelm von Gaudy, commander of the regiment of Salmuth, in the general demobilization of 1763. His career apparently scuttled by the dislike of General Anhalt, Steuben later said that: "I have nothing to be ashamed of for my part in the war, though it may be that an inconsiderate step and perhaps an unreconcilable enemy destroyed the expectation of a better reward." | ” |
IIRC Steuben was fleeing from an investigation into buggering young boys, not simply being gay 68.239.25.182 ( talk) 22:38, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Might this Fasolt toss something at Fafner? Once upon a time, it was believed Beethoven was (consciously or otherwise) sexually attracted to his nephew, and this accounted for their bad relationship. This idiotic idea has been largely discarded. We know Lud was attracted to a number of women, and probably would have married one if they had not been generally turned off by this uncouth slob. We have no direct evidence that LvB ever had sex with a woman (or a man), but the preponderance of evidence points to his being interested solely in women. No one insists that Beethoven's obvious heterosexuality has to be "proved". (Ditto for Brahms.)
Unfortunately, some people want to be "fair" to historical figures, and insist that "accusations" of homosexuality must be proved, according to a standard well beyond what is considered acceptable for "proof" of heterosexuality. This isn't fairness -- it's anti-gay bias.
If something looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's usually a duck. Von Steuben's social relationships (which this article does not cover in depth) were limited largely to men, especially young officers. Once he retired, he could have associated with women as much as he cared to (which apparently was very little). His household included young men, and he left his property to them. How much more proof do you want? WilliamSommerwerck ( talk) 21:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Baron von Steuben was gay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.253.215.132 ( talk) 22:42, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
I generally agree with Wiki user 9Fafner9; the Wikipedia article List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people makes it clear in the lead of the article (in bold face) that people who are rumored to be gay/lesbian/bi-sexual are not to be listed in the article. This was a very lively and very civil discussion; I wish more Wiki Talk Pages could boast that. Take care. ProfessorPaul ( talk) 21:29, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
There is almost always fire where there is smoke. This article needs to discuss the question of whether von Steuben was homosexual. WilliamSommerwerck ( talk) 16:20, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
As I said in another spot, I agree with it at least being discussed as a reason for him leaving Europe. But historical rumors, especially as done by historians, need to be read with caution. There is great discussion about whether or not John Laurens (an aide to camp of Washington during the revolution) was homosexual because Alexander Hamilton wrote in letters that John needn't be threatened by his engagement to Elizabeth Schyler because he Alexander still loved him deeply. Love between friends was not considered odd at the time, and soldiers today will tell you that some of their closest bonds are with people they served with. John Laurens actually was forced to marry a women with whom he had a child in England before the revolution, and Alexander Hamilton had eight children with Elizabeth. Yet some historians. probably with an homophobic agenda, insist that Laurens, who was killed in the Revolution, must have been gay (it rarely comes up at all in Hamilton's history). It's very tricky, especially in military settings. Jlfeuerbach ( talk) 13:36, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
The sentence, "Because homosexuality was criminalized at the time, records of his relationships are limited to references in correspondences. Von Steuben formally adopted Walker and North and made them his heirs," is attributed to "Kapp, Friedrich The Life of Frederick William Von Steuben, Major General in the United States Army, Mason Brothers, New York 1859, p. 707 [3]." That page is an Appendix and only contains a roll call. It says nothing about homosexuality, does not provide information about his correspondences, and says nothing about him appointing heirs. Either the citation is incorrect or that information, should it remain, requires a new citation. Does anyone have more info on this issue? Should an edit be made? Auctoris ( talk) 02:30, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
The rumors and accusations should be mentioned, but unless there is a categorization for "being allegedly homosexual" or "accused of being gay", he shouldn't be listed as a "gay man" without solid evidence. This isn't a matter of pro- or anti- LGBT bias, only a matter of fact. Yes, the rumors were something people said and should be included in the article, but nothing more than that. I don't believe that rumors are sufficient to change one's categorization on Wikipedia. If they were, the site would have to categorize all sorts of nonsense as if it were true. It's a matter of evidence, not bias. -- 69.86.190.130 ( talk) 03:45, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Again, we not Know that....but We don't know if the author wasn't just trying to whitewash the US icon von Steuben with the moral terms of the 18/19 century? BUT did some of the conservative, puritanical American patriots actually know that von Steuben was acquainted with the Duke of Würthenberg? ..you probably didn't know anything about the charming young lady, who could be described as a (quote) "matchless woman". Check them out!
Friederike Dorothea Sophia von Brandenburg-Schwedt would have been completely unreachable for von Steuben too (high nobility)....but she was very pretty and super sweet, wasn't she? I found the reference on a page to which the author even warns that there is no proof for this either. True, but it would be possible - also in terms of time - and the description is correct! Or it was another lady from the -unreachable- high nobility. That wouldn't be definitive proof of his heterosexuality either, but it would be an indication! What you can really blame the "conservative US patriots" for is that they always go around with the Stars and Stripes flag but have neglected to check the following in 200 years:
-- Is there a compilation of the list of estates of General Steuben - by the executor/notary.
Any miniatures/medalions of women and girls that may be present here are of particular interest.
Maybe he later burned the picture...but if the picture (of the distinguished "matchless" lady) ever existed up to the time of his death...
-WHERE did the picture of the lady go?
- And did anyone else see it later and describe whether the lady was dressed in German/European or English/American clothing style of the time?
Many questions, little effort to answer these questions...
I can only speak English very badly, I don't know the USA, what is to do, to check it, can you ask the right places? 81.20.127.18 ( talk) 16:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Why we cannot have current name of Breslau (Wrocław) next to a previous name of this city? Why the change made there would not show up? Zbinienda ( talk) 21:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the LGBT Military category. The source given (Conduct Unbecoming, by Schilts) doesn't actually say that von Steuben was gay. And reading the above, all we have are rumors. Until and unless there's good sourcing for the statement, it shouldn't be included. -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 03:12, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the accusation of homosexuality isn't enough to be mentioned, at least as a reason that he came to America. Being deeply in debt was a good reason to come, too. Steuben had powerful friends in America after the Revolution that would have kept anything from being "proven", at least to congress. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlfeuerbach ( talk • contribs) 13:25, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
The part about training has been corrupted somehow on the 4. January 2010. Could someone please restore that version? it actually looked quite complete and I added some literature yesterday. Later found that the current version makes on sense. Herbertkarl ( talk) 10:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC) Last sentence should read: Later found that the current version makes no sense Herbertkarl ( talk) 10:34, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Back in October a vandal replaced the name of his mother, Elizabeth von Jagvodin (as found in cited source) with the name Sylvia Sue Steuben, and bolded the name. This should be reverted. 50.37.120.141 ( talk) 05:46, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
I wasn't sure this was an appropriate edit, so I'm putting it here. Steuben didn't speak any English, at least when he arrived at Valley Forge. John Laurens, Alexander Hamilton, and probably Lafayette acted as translators for him. This is important for two reasons. One, he apparently made up swear words (and maybe other terms) that were a mash of languages and completely endeared him to the men (Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow). Two, it may have been the link through which Lafayette finally was able to start using his impressive military studies, which were in French, by hearing them translated (complete conjecture on my part). Jlfeuerbach ( talk) 13:35, 20 June 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlfeuerbach ( talk • contribs) 13:17, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
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I cannot be sure but I see a potential for error in the use of the title "Inspector General" in this case. Following the link attached to this title I get a description that is not very military but rather bureaucratic. I followed it because here in Germany the "Inspector General" is the highest ranking general of the army and I was astonished that this title also exists in the USA. As General v. Steuben was involved in the initial creation of the modern American army I find it very likely that the title in his case was closer to what it is now in Germany than what it is now in the USA. In that case the link would be misleading and it would be great if someone could improve the "Inspector General" article by adding the historical use there, etc. I have no way to check this but the German Wikipedia implies that in his case "Inspector General" meant that he was the highest ranking person in that particular army (current Germany only has a single army ... so maybe that's the meaning of the title in "our" context and probably in his - the current US use of that title seems to be misleading at least to me). JB. -- 92.195.5.132 ( talk) 17:19, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
In march, the lithuanian user sol505000 changed the german IPA-pronounciation from German: [fɔn ˈʃtɔʏbn̩] to German: [fɔn ˈʃtɔʏbm̩], stating "incorrect IPA - the nasal is alveolar only when the schwa is sounded, syllabic nasals assimilate to the preceding stops". That may be theoreticly correct, but isn't so in reality. As a native speaker of German, who has worked and travelled his life in all parts of german speaking countries, in high german I've seldom heard German: [fɔn ˈʃtɔʏbm̩] (lips closed after the last sound) and most often German: [fɔn ˈʃtɔʏbn̩] (lips slightly open after the last sound). So I disagree with the statement quoted above, and would say that the original german IPA-pronounciation was right - I admit that the difference is small, and that in some cases of mumbling pronunciation also German: [fɔn ˈʃtɔʏbm̩] can heard, but nevertheless there's no need to call a mumbling pronunciation the regular one (or many, many IPA-pronounciations have to be adapted...). ThomasPusch ( talk) 20:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)