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Is 'Uncle Roger' (Roger Bacon) still doing his Straight and Level column in Flight?
Might be worth a mention if so, or if something similar exists in the magazine. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.40.248.136 (
talk) 00:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)reply
With a team of journalists and correspondents around the world, it provides global coverage of aerospace manufacturing and aviation operations in the areas of
air transport, business aviation,
defence,
general aviation and
spaceflight. Features include the magazine's famous aircraft cutaway illustrations, flight tests of new aircraft, in-service reports and sector-by-sector analysis.[1]
[...]
Since the late 1920s, Flight International has become particularly well known for producing highly detailed aviation illustrations, known as 'Flight Cutaways' and 'Micro-cutaways'. These were pioneered by Max Millar, head of the artist's department. Some of the best known artists in this field were Arthur Bowbeer, Frank Munger and John Marsden, who between them produced several hundred cutaways between 1946 and 1994.[2]
According to Flight, the goal of the cutaways is to inform aerospace professionals of developments in civil and defence aircraft and engine programmes, and to do so in uncompromising detail, worldwide. The Cutaways are a globally recognized product and benchmark for detail and accuracy.[2]
So work to improve the sourcing. Even edit it to improve the tone. But do not simply blank sections that you dislike. And when reverted by another editor, per
WP:BRD DO NOT simply start edit-warring to have it your way. Also 'reading some of Flight might be useful. These cutaways are ubiquitous, distinctive and have been so since the middle of last century.
Andy Dingley (
talk) 01:04, 13 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Since the above material as well as a good deal of the section Flight Daily News is written essentially as an advertisement, I think adding
Template:Advert to the page pending resolution of this dispute would be appropriate. —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk) 02:32, 13 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Regarding sourcing, I doubt that reliable sources will be found for most of the above material, particularly descriptions of the magazine's "features", "team of journalists and correspondents around the world", "best known artists", and "globally recognized product" – as well as statements from the section Flight Daily News such as "it was a new concept in air show daily newspapers" and "it markets the information it provides as 'today's news today'". This is essentially advertising, which does not belong on Wikipedia according to
What Wikipedia is not. A good deal more is simply unsourced trivia, which even if reliable sources were found, wouldn't represent the most
significant, published viewpoints on the topic as required by
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk) 08:22, 14 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Andy is currently on a 31-hour vacation from WP, so his response will be delayed. -
BilCat (
talk) 21:24, 13 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Pending further responses from other contributors, I removed some material from the section Flight Daily News, and other unsourced and/or advertising-like material (
Special:Diff/749511259), for the reasons detailed above. —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk) 18:51, 14 November 2016 (UTC)reply
Update: All of the material that I removed has been
re-added with no explanation and no attempt to address the concerns I raised above. The user who added the material back also reverted the addition of the only independent, reliable source cited so far,[1]which was added on 25 December, as well as
a couple of commonsense changes made by yet another user, once again with no explanation. The
current version of the article is once again bloated with unsourced or poorly-sourced promotional content and trivia. Moreover, citations to sources based on press releases circulated by
PR Newswire and
Business Wire[2][3] seem to fall far short of the standard of "third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" per Wikipedia:Verifiability (emphasis mine). To address the concerns raised in this section as well as under
§ Primary sources below, I suggest restoring the page to the
revision as of 23:18, 25 December 2016 (minus the AfD tag). —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk) 00:42, 31 December 2016 (UTC)reply
Update: Since no one has objected since my last comment was posted two weeks ago, I have
restored the page to the previous version by
User:Fnlayson. —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk) 01:30, 14 January 2017 (UTC)reply
^Ward, Arthur (2015). A Guide to War Publications of the First & Second World War: From Training Guides to Propaganda Posters.
Pen and Sword. p. 39.
ISBN9781783831548. Founded in 1909, Flight (now Flight International) the British produced global aerospace weekly and the world's oldest continuously published aviation news magazine, was another publisher of specialist information which appeared as wartime paper restrictions allowed to keep enthusiasts up to date in aircraft design and performance.
I have removed the tag after a tidy up, it has only two "closely related" refs now one of which deals with the content which is probably not unreasonable and one is a front cover related to the incorporation of a different title. We can probably in time find another ref but as it is factual rather than opinion it is really not an issue.
MilborneOne (
talk) 10:48, 14 January 2017 (UTC)reply
Two sources out of five with close ties to the subject is still significant, in my opinion. Whether the material is factual isn't really the issue. Reliable, secondary sources are needed to establish the relative
WP:WEIGHT of different statements. In such a brief article (and yes, I know it was longer before I removed a bunch of promotional content), every statement should be evaluated for whether it represents
a summary of accepted knowledge about the subject – If the
1920s merger with The Aircraft Engineer & Airships is accepted as being significant to the topic, then finding a reliable, independent source for it should be a trivial matter. However, I'm not seeing
any mention of it in independent publications.
User:Sangdeboeuf I dont disagree with your statement that some of the words are still a bit fluffy and they should be removed, I am still looking for something on the aircraft engineer & airships but it is not a journal I have heard of before so it probably is not significant. I would still argue that a primary source is fine for factual information about itself but I understand your concern about weight and balance.
MilborneOne (
talk) 15:03, 16 January 2017 (UTC)reply
Having looked more closely at the source cited for the statement
In the mid-1920s Flight incorporated a related journal, The Aircraft Engineer & Airships[3]
I'm not seeing any mention of the other journal being "incorporated", or indeed of it ever having existed as a separate publication. There are just the words The Aircraft Engineer & Airships underneath the main title, Flight. I'm guessing there was a bit of
original interpretation by some Wikipedian involved here – in that light, I would suggest removing the statement entirely. —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk) 03:51, 17 January 2017 (UTC)reply