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At Five Points' height only certain areas of London's East End vied with it in sheer population density, disease, infant and child mortality, unemployment, violent crime and other classic ills of the destitute. Of course one may not mention any of the places east of Suez that outclassed both London and New York in these categories. I suppose we don't hold those cultures to Western standards. Wetman 06:35, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
As "race" is a cultural phenomenon, it does not make much sense to speak universally of the history of racial integration. One might as well say that the Roman assimilation of the Etrurians fits in the "history of racial integration". As to the "aloofness" of Spanish conquerors, that is certainly arguable, but it cannot be disputed that the great majority of them took native wives, certainly well before the mid-19th century, so even in the context of "modern Western racial integration in the Americas" the Five Points was not unique or pioneering. The only way the Five Points could be said to be historically distinctive in terms of racial integration is in the context of the history of the United States.-- Pharos 22:16, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Pharos, I've been considering how to change the sentence we discussed above but I can't come up with a good way to approach it (that is, a way that would not be reverted by you), given your extreme position on "race". You really believe "race" is purely a "cultural phenomenon"? There are no quantifiable biological group differences which would make the sexual activity between these previously physically separate groups an occurrence of note? JDG 07:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, the first thing that I'm saying is that the mixing of white and blacks or different races did not start in the Five Points; in other words that the Five Points was not some epochal event in the biological history of the human species. By any standard, persons who would today mark "white" or "black" on the U.S. Census have mixed throughout history, including having children with one another. It is fair to say that the social situation in the Five Points as regards race was a harbinger of an important development in American history.-- Pharos 08:42, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The editor of this page says that most of the Five Points was subject to slum clearance in the 1880s. I cannot disagree more with this. The Five Points was renovated in the late 1940s in accordance with the New Deal Act. In the late 1800s, the Five Points was still the worst slum. Irish crime was replaced by Jewish crime in the early 1900s. The Five Points didn't get cleaned up until 1947. Sandy June 00:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Why was the Five Points subjected to slum clearance and not the Lower East Side as well? It does not make much sense. Sandy June 04:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Is it the best to use the term Park Street in this article? The street is neither signed Park St. today, nor was signed it when Anthony St. was cut through to the intersection to create the actual Five Points intersection back in 1817. In that year, Anthony St. was extended to the intersection of Orange and what was known as Cross Street to create an intersection with five corners; in the 1830s, Anthony Street was extended further, past the intersection, to Chatham Square, leaving the intersection to become, actually, a six-cornered intersection by the era that the movie "Gangs of New York" is set. Only later was Anthony renamed Worth, Orange into Baxter, and Cross into Park Street. By the time of the 1930s/40s, with the WPA projects that created Government Center, were Baxter and Park streets closed south of Worth Street; in addition, with the sometime refurbishment of Columbus Park (the result of the 1880s slum clearance project), Park Street was closed between Baxter and Mulberry, resulting in the current intersection of Baxter and Worth. This T-shaped intersection of Baxter and Worth is what remains of the Five Points intersection today. In that time, too, the name of Park Street had changed; now the street is signed Mosco Street, and runs only the one block between Mott and Mulberry Street (alongside the RC Church of the Transfiguration in modern-day Chinatown). Therefore, since "Park Street" was neither the name of the street when the "Five Points" originated (then being known as Cross Street), nor the name of the street now (being currently signed Mosco Street), is it really proper to call it Park Street in this article? 128.235.249.80 04:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Besides, using the name Park Street in the article can easily lead to confusion to the nearby Park Row that comes off Chatham Square, two blocks east of the current-day intersection of Baxter and Worth; Park Street can also be confused for Park Avenue elsehwere in Manhattan, whose name and location have no relation to Park Street or the Five Points. (Park Ave. was renamed from Third Ave. for its wide median, left when the railroad tracks leading to Grand Central Terminal were buried underground from the original location at ground level.) 128.235.249.80 05:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
This particular line leads the reader to believe that this was an organized effort. Grassroots, while technically defined as "basic or fundamental" (per Merriam Webster) also conjures up the idea of an organized group of people advocating a cause, independent of political or wealthy backers as part of today's vernacular and really, that is what is has come to mean - far from it's basic and fundamental form.
Irish and African immigrants and slaves living in close quarter in the Five Points area of NYC in the 18th and 19th centuries has nothing to do with "grassroots" racial integration. Segregation, racial hatred and crimes against freed Africans were common even within the neighborhood and there was certainly no common cause movement to uphold racial integration as the way of the future. How quickly you forget the Civil War Draft Riots!
How many sources would you like cited to demonstrate that this small article seems to overlook the truth behind The Five Points district/neighborhood and whitewashes it in a sort of bizarre, almost revisionist paint?
Maybe someone who knows more about the subject matter can decide if this warrants a place in the article or not. Basically, Tom Waits refers to the Five Points amongst other things in his song Never Let Go, from the album Orphans: Brawlers, Bawlers & Bastards. It is the reason I got to this article, so maybe it deserves a place. Regards, Alan16 ( talk) 19:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC).
I suggest a new section: 'In Popular Culture', and moving 'Gangs of New York' as a subsection. Note: that section already contains a reference to 'The Sting' (movie), which doesn't properly belong there. This would allow a place for the above (and any other) reference. 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 18:25, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
First of all, this section header is hidden by the Dickens table, I'm going to see if that can be fixed.
I'm removing a quoted definition of cholera from this section; there's no need for in-line encyclopedia quotes on a wiki when we've a good page on the disease already. I am also removing the following quote , since it is not specifically about Five Points and is attributed to a newspaper that turns up no results on Google or Wikipedia:
"Drunkards and filthy, wicked people of all descriptions, are swept away in heaps, as if the Holy God could no longer bear their wickedness, just as we sweep away a mass of filth when it has become so corrupt that we cannot bear it.... The cholera is not caused by intemperance and filth, in themselves, but it is a scourge, a rod in the hand of God...."
— "Western Sunday School Messenger, 1 September 1832"
If these edits meet with your disapproval, feel free to revert. --
AgonRex (
talk) 04:30, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
http://caho-test.cc.columbia.edu/dbq/11003.html
If further information is desired: (from same link, above)
Primary source: “E. M.,” editorial, 1849.
Background information: As far away as New Hampshire, editorials denounced the New York cholera epidemic of 1832 as divine retribution for decadence and sin.
"E. M.," editorial, Morning Star (Dover, N.H.), 24, (15 August 1849): 69, in Charles E. Rosenberg, The Cholera Years: The United States in 1832, 1849, and 1866 (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1987), 130 n. 19.
These quotations provide some insight into the mores of the time; and might be of interest -- sorry, I feel squeamish about editing the main page (help yourself?) ~Eric F. 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 19:48, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps there should be something like "also collectively known as Delaware Indians" included in the section where the Munsee/Lanape are mentioned. Most people reading this are probably more familiar with that designation. ~Eric F. 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 22:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps there should be a mention of this, with a Main article
link to WP page.
They were founded by Paul Kelly and included such notorious notables as Charles "Lucky" Luciano, and Alphonse Gabriel "Al" Capone.
~Eric F.
184.76.225.106 (
talk) 08:25, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
I think the article should use a different picture for the Lenape, early inhabitants of Five Points. The current picture is of a "Lenape Dancer," which looks to be someone, presumably a Lenape wearing a mask and a costume. As a picture that is supposed to give someone with no idea who or what a Lenape is, this one is very confusing.
There are four pictures of Lenape in the article on the Lenape. Any one of those pictures would give the reader a better idea than the current picture. Ileanadu ( talk) 01:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Hello, the phrases by Charles Dickens about the Language of the people at the Five Points I read as a discrimination against this men and women. His words are: "Many of these pigs live here. Do they ever wonder why their masters walk upright in lieu of going on all-fours? and why they talk instead of grunting?”
OK I understand that the Dickens as an english man did not speak or well understood Irish language, Gaelic or Irish Gaelic, also not some other language by immigrants. I would like to delete this phrase soon. Beside it is not relevant for the Five Points. Best regards.-- Maxim Pouska ( talk) 15:36, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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Original citation is working now. Thank you. Vzeebjtf ( talk) 18:39, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
And isn't Chinatown (along with most of the other supposed "neighborhoods" of Manhattan Island recognized today) more a collection of neighborhoods? 2603:6011:A600:46:28C3:8837:BF53:3308 ( talk) 14:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)