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After spending more time on this than I really should have, I finally tracked down the origin of the "German steel producer splattering molten steel" story. It is from the 1993 "Risks Digest", moderated by Peter G. Neumann. It was posted by Debora Weber-Wulff, a professor in Germany. Unfortunately, it starts with: "A student told this quite believable tale about a German steel-producer last week..." and ends with "Any confirmation of this from sources other than a friend of a friend?" It appears that from here, it was reproduced as fact in Peter G. Neumann's 1995 book, Computer-Related Risks, without citation. In fact, my thanks to an Associate Professor at NC State whose lecture notes on the topic correctly cited the Weber-Wulff post.
So...has anyone ever actually confirmed that the story happened as described? It has become an oft-repeated anecdote, but is it true? And, if not independently confirmed, should it still be in this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GuyBehindtheGuy ( talk • contribs) 16:15, 9 March 2015 (UTC) ' I'm not seeing Venezuela. Shouldn't the map show Venezuela -Joshua Clement Broyles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.27.145.54 ( talk) 21:26, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
I notice that the article has not mentioned one of the things I notice most; that I tend to exercise in the morning (like many people), going down to the beach, doing exercise and/or meditation and in the evening after work, I'm tired, and spend the evening in front of the TV or computer. So for me, and many I observe, counter to the claim there is more time for outdoor sport, Daylight Savings means less time for myself in the morning, when I have energy. I notice many people exercising at the beach in the morning, few in the eveinging. I've noticed many people, as I do come home from work, make dinner, watch the evening news, then settle in. It is the time children and family are home, time for dinner, and spending time together... not for going out. When using screens, low angled sun casts glare, leading to closing curtains. Then artificial light is used, so there is no energy savings. ( 203.214.90.234 ( talk) 21:23, 16 March 2015 (UTC))
Is it correct that daylight saving is "advancing clocks during summer months by one hour so that light extends into the evening hours"? Technically light does not extend any further into the evening hours. Times are altered so that daylight hours commence and end an hour later than during standard time. Royalcourtier ( talk) 00:03, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
I contend that the phrase which forms the title of this page should always be written with a hyphen: "daylight-saving time". Happily, Wikipedia itself supports me in this: see English_compound#Hyphenated_compound_modifiers, which says "The following compound modifiers are always hyphenated when they are not written as one word: [...] a noun, adjective, or adverb preceding a present participle [...]" (emphasis in original). Just as (to use one of the examples from that page) an awe-inspiring personality is a personality that inspires awe, so daylight-saving time is a time that saves daylight.
Failure to follow this rule from the beginning has led to precisely the outcome predicted on that page: people don't understand how the phrase was intended to be parsed. This can be seen not only from the written form of the common corruption of the phrase, "daylight savings time", but also from the common pronunciation, where "sav" is stressed more strongly than "day" (in American English, anyway), when the correct parse would be pronounced with "day" stressed more strongly than "sav".
If no one objects, I would like to make this change throughout the page. (Hmm, I suppose there's additional complexity involved in changing the title, as references may have to be updated; how does one do that?)
ScottBurson ( talk) 23:42, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
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The article says Franklin did not invent DST. I'm afraid this is original research. The Block article actually says that he did. OK, time wasn't standardised back then, but Franklin does refer to looking at his watch and seeing it was six o'clock, checking almanacs, etc. Presumably he set his watch based on noon. The concept of DST is there.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:58, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
It seems to me that - in North America at least - all changes happen around 2am. The first clock face correctly shows 1:59 followed by 3:00, but the second looks like 2:59 is followed by 2:00.
Isn't it more correct to say that 1:59 is followed by 1:00, and it is the hour from 1 to 2 that is repeated to make the 25th hour that day, not the hour from 2 to 3?
Willing to be shown to be wrong
Festeron ( talk) 21:47, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
The map at the top of the page here isn't showing the area in Southeastern BC in Canada that doesn't observe DST. I believe that it used to. Perhaps this is a remade version of the map and it was forgotten to include this. Air.light ( talk) 16:35, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello. Is there consensus on whether daylight saving time should be capitalized or not capitalized? The article seems to have both treatments. Lbbzman ( talk) 13:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Should a section be added to cover that? C933103 ( talk) 13:49, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Instead of going through the tedious process of changing the number on the clock, why not just adjust the habits and schedules every once a while according to sunrise and sunset if efficiency is important? -- 94.217.98.216 ( talk) 01:18, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The article seems to switch between the standard "daylight saving time" and the [admittedly better-sounding, but still officially] incorrect "daylight savings time" throughout, likely due to different authors using different style, possibly not even noticing that the article uses the singular version. I'm going to go through and make it conform to "daylight saving time" (as that is the article's name, even if "savings" is more standard) throughout (except, of course, in quotes, proper nouns, titles of external articles, and the Terminology section). Hppavilion1 ( talk) 22:43, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
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Is daylight saving time just a few months per year (i.e., summer time in North America or Europe)? Or is it in effect more months per year than standard time? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 22:29, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
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Both styles are used. Are both correct or is one more correct than the other?
97.115.204.87 ( talk) 13:09, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Daylight saving time (abbreviated DST), also sometimes erroneously referred to as daylight savings timeand changed it to read
Daylight saving time (abbreviated DST), commonly referred to as daylight savings time. No-one has undone his edit. We have no reliable source for which usage is most common (a google search is not a reliable method) and my desktop reference, The Canadian Oxford Dictionary, lists "daylight saving" and "daylight savings" as the generic terms and "daylight time" and "daylight saving time" as particularly North American versions. There is no entry for "daylight savings time" to my surprise. I will change "commonly" back to "sometimes", which is what was originally in the article, and leave the removal of the characterization of "savings" as an error.
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One of two editors fighting to include the plural version of Daylight SavingS in the lead told to me to see the discussion on the Talk page. There isn't one. Well, not until now. (Glad to be of assistance.)
Our very first source says it's wrong. If we really have to include the fact that some people use the wrong name, we surely should point out that it's wrong, or at least that some reliable sources say it is. And I have never seen a government site use that form.
I am still reluctant to see the wrong version included at all unless I see an official government site using it. HiLo48 ( talk) 05:45, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
HiLo wrote "Wherever it operates, Daylight Saving has to be a government initiative. So what government sources say on the matter is what must count as correct." I disagree. Yes, daylight saving almost always is a government initiative. But that doesn't mean the government has to give it an easy-to-say-or-write name. The Congress of the United States has instituted daylight saving time, but they did not give it a name, just a description of what it is, together with giving authority to the Department of Commerce to specify some of the details. What they did NOT do is explicitly give any government department the authority to give a name to daylight saving time. Thus, authority to name daylight saving time rests with the people, and their collective decision is documented in dictionaries. Jc3s5h ( talk) 13:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
What's the difference between "Permanent daylight saving time" and simply choosing a different time zone for a location? I see none, and wonder why it counts as something special to be mentioned in the article. HiLo48 ( talk) 00:56, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
What's the difference between "Permanent daylight saving time" and simply choosing a different time zone for a location?
In Europe, the dates for changing time are defined under competency of the European Union, by a directive; while the time zone is decided country by country, as each country has its own sovereignty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.193.103.68 ( talk) 20:32, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
'Permanent daylight saving time' means that time does change again as mentioned. If a place with UTC is given as in 'permanent DST', it should be mentioned as 'UTC+01:00(permanent DST)'. It can be reverted without changing the Standard time. It is used for places in... eg. wartime or other reasons where it can be reverted after the time period of the event. When a different time zone is chosen for a location, the Standard time by itself is changed. This can be done to solve problems such as matching the time zone to the solar time. This change is assumed permanent unless the time zone is changed again whereas the 'permanent' in permanent DST only tells that it is permanent for the whole year and not for all the forthcoming years. There goes the explanation. The Mathlete ( talk) 13:36, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
It seems intuitively obvious to me that if you have a figure in which, on a vertical axis, up could be "earlier" and down "later" vs. up being "later" and down "earlier", the former is the correct choice. It is baffling that there are two separate charts in this article ( /info/en/?search=File:Greenwich_GB_DaylightChart.png & https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SpringFwd-FallBack.png) that take the latter approach. Apparently, even the people making / modifying these graphics find them confusing, as the Greenwich daylight chart was modifed on 13 Sep 2018 by Invent2HelpAll with the comment "Reoriented to have sun rising in the sky during moringtime as up. Now matches other diagram in DST article." Well, no, it was reoriented to have the sun rising in the sky as -down-, so that now both are wrong instead of just one and the editor was just as confused by this as the rest of us!
On an unrelated topic, I think phrasings about "advancing clocks" and "springing forward" are unclear. It only makes sense if you imagine a clock face (and who really encounters those any more), interpret "clockwise" to mean "forward" or "advancing", and think through it for a bit. I came to this article hoping to remember which one ("springing forward" or "falling back") means you get to have an extra hour of sleep vs. losing an hour of sleep, and between upside down figures and this "springing forward" kind of nonsense I just had to think it through for myself regardless. Ho hum. It might just be that we don't have great options for talking about or illustrating time, but if we do have good options they are not used here. Paalexan ( talk) 03:22, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
@ Oriagh: Thank you for recent contribution. I see that you added Morocco to the permanent daylight savings section (note that the list is not supposed to be comprehensive). The problem is that Morocco is mentioned in another part of the article as abandoning DST during Ramadan. Your edit introduced a conflict and because I cannot read the source (or copy and paste the text into a translator) that your provided, I cannot fix it. Please fix the problem and if you can find a source in English, that would be greatly appreciated. Let me know how I can help. PopularOutcast talk2me! 00:06, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
In the IANA time zone database, permanent daylight saving time is considered standard time that has been added by an hour. This statement in the article needs to be clarified. I tried to find places with permanent DST and either I don't understand how the database works or the partial list in that section is incorrect. In any case, Morocco seems to be updated in the database and shows nothing about "added by an hour". There's a column called SAVE that shows 1:00. The offset from GMT remains the same. All daylight saving time, permanent or not, show 1:00 in SAVE column. The only difference seems to be that for permanent DST places there isn't a rule to change back to standard time. Should we delete this line? Thoughts? PopularOutcast talk2me! 05:32, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
2018-11-05T23:59:52+01:00
.Zone Africa/Casablanca -0:30:20 - LMT 1913 Oct 26 0:00 Morocco +00/+01 1984 Mar 16 1:00 - +01 1986 0:00 Morocco +00/+01 2018 Oct 27 1:00 - +01
"Daylight savings time" is grammatically incorrect and should not be used. The time is saving daylight. It's a daylight-saving time. The inclusion of "savings" in the Wikipedia article is one of the reasons Wikipedia should not be used as a reference as it allows wrong information. Have yourselves a wonderful day, everyone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danda Panda ( talk • contribs) 02:12, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
There are other meanings of DST. Well, at least one: Dedicated Service Tools on the IBM i platform/OS, rather roughly equivalent to BIOS settings in the PC-world. Unfortunately, there's no existing article regarding that topic. -- Poc ( talk) 22:05, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Brazil not showing on map? Or did they abolish it too? :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.84.55.169 ( talk) 00:12, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
I recently noticed that Senegal, Algeria and Libya are using permanent daylight saving because I noticed on the timeanddate app that solar noon is after 1PM and they are more than 45 minutes ahead of physical time. Scientist boy 5 ( talk) 12:29, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
# Unless otherwise specified, the source for data through 1990 is: # Thomas G. Shanks and Rique Pottenger, The International Atlas (6th edition), # San Diego: ACS Publications, Inc. (2003). # Unfortunately this book contains many errors and cites no sources.
# From Even Scharning (2012-11-10): # Libya set their time one hour back at 02:00 on Saturday November 10. # https://www.libyaherald.com/2012/11/04/clocks-to-go-back-an-hour-on-saturday/ # Here is an official source [in Arabic]: http://ls.ly/fb6Yc # # Steffen Thorsen forwarded a translation (2012-11-10) in # https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-November/018451.html # # From Tim Parenti (2012-11-11): # Treat the 2012-11-10 change as a zone change from UTC+2 to UTC+1. # The DST rules planned for 2013 and onward roughly mirror those of Europe # (either two days before them or five days after them, so as to fall on # lastFri instead of lastSun). # From Even Scharning (2013-10-25): # The scheduled end of DST in Libya on Friday, October 25, 2013 was # cancelled yesterday.... # https://www.libyaherald.com/2013/10/24/correction-no-time-change-tomorrow/ # # From Paul Eggert (2013-10-25): # For now, assume they're reverting to the pre-2012 rules of permanent UT +02.
Senegal is in the GMT time zone. When it is 12 noon in Senegal, It is 1pm in France during winter and 2pm during summer
"Advance" and "retard", when referring to clocks, might be somewhat obscure terms; people might be more familiar with "turning clocks forward" and "turning clocks back". That might also avoid people "fixing" the word "retard" because they're only familiar with the derogatory term for people with intellectual disability. Guy Harris ( talk) 02:31, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
I see that a color in the color code below the map means “formerly or permanently Daylight Saving Time.” Colors on a map should not mean more than one different thing. That can confuse people. Does Wikipedia not have enough room for more colors in a color code for any map? Cbsteffen ( talk) 23:09, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
The map should really only show 3 things: - countries that do it - countries that don't anymore - and countries that never did
Trying to put 'permanent DST' on the map is too complex - how do you define specifically who is on permanent DST? As this article shows, there are MANY places in the world who are ahead of their time zone. They are all in some way on permanent DST. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/02/how-wrong-is-your-time-zone-map-shows-how-far-world-clocks-are-from-solar-time.html Please restore the old map until this is resolved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.84.24.164 ( talk • contribs) 09:05, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
In the map in /info/en/?search=File:DST_Countries_Map.png, why Yukon's color is "formerly used daylight savings"? Isn't Yukon using daylight saving time all year (i.e. on PDT (Pacific Daylight Time) all year)? Should we have any special colors for year-round DST? 139.228.164.4 ( talk) 13:08, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
There is really no such thing. According to https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/daylight-saving the definition of daylight saving is "the practice of advancing standard time by one hour in the spring of each year and of setting it BACK by one hour in the fall in order to gain an extra period of daylight during the early evening"
So it's a seasonal clock-change. Once you make it permanent, you lose the benefit, and it's no longer DST, it's your new Standard Time.
Many places are ahead of (or behind) their geographic time zone, like Xinjiang in China, and it's not called permanent DST. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.84.24.164 ( talk • contribs) 09:05, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
The former arrangement of having Summer Time in some Brazilian States and not in others may have been requested by the State jurisdictions; but it was Decreed by the National President (reference already cited in the Article) 94.30.84.71 ( talk) 20:51, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
I was my understanding that this was created to keep the seasons in line with our calender and to adjust the time of day to get more farming time. since now all our seasons are coming late should we make a adjustment? if so how could that affect our norm? say -- oh by the way your birthday is next month. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jesse1620 ( talk • contribs) 02:55, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
We've got substantial issues with this one here. It's not compliant with WP:LEADCITE. There's significant uncited text. The bit about it and Windows is rather out of date. Additionally, it does seem like a lot of that Windows section is undue weight: it's about half of the computing section, and there's not much information about other operating systems, so I'm not even entirely sure why there's that much information about it. Most of the computing section itself is actually out of date. For instance, the passage "Older or stripped-down systems may support only the TZ values required by POSIX, which specify at most one start and end rule explicitly in the value. For example, TZ='EST5EDT,M3.2.0/02:00,M11.1.0/02:00' specifies time for the eastern United States starting in 2007. Such a TZ value must be changed whenever DST rules change, and the new value applies to all years, mishandling some older timestamps." not only refers to something in 2007 and kinda in the future tense, but it's also sourced to something from 2004. Surely something has changed since 2007. It's completely unclear what the citation to "May 1965, Minnesota Mayhem." is referring to. A lot of the books cited are missing page numbers. And that's only from a quick look. This isn't meeting the FA standards right now. Hog Farm Bacon 18:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
There are some interesting prior discussions which have been archived and are no longer visible here. Why are some older discussions showing above but newer ones are not showing? If the discussions disappear people will just ask the same questions again. The talk page is not that big, people should be able to click onto it and see the discussions without them being deleted/archived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.203.75.31 ( talk) 04:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
At the left-hand side of the page there are URLs for languages other than English, and at the bottom of the list is "中文" which means Zhōngwén or Chinese language.
The "Language settings" button at the top of the list says this means, in this context, 中文大陆, Zhōngwén Dàlù, literally “Continental Chinese." Clicking through, however, gets a perfectly reasonable translation but in the traditional characters used today in Taiwan, Singapore, and many overseas communities. It was "Continental Chinese" on the continent up until the nineteen sixties, but is no longer so.
Editing this is beyond my competence. Could somebody perhaps change the "中文" at the bottom of the list of languages to "中文繁體"? This is Zhōngwén fántǐ or traditional form of Chinese, as opposed to simplified form, 簡體|简体 jian3 ti3, and would be both accurate and politically neutral.
For the coming period, the ideal solution will be to have two Chinese entries, "中文简体" and "中文繁體." This is how the Chinese edition of the New York Times, for instance, is sold to subscribers and is very common throughout Wikipedia. This will be very slightly incorrect for residents of Hong Kong, Singapore and a diminishing number of overseas Chinese communities, but each of these has made its own mental accommodations to the problem.
FWIW, the Mainland does not currently use, uh, Summer Time, but the entire country is something like eighty or ninety degrees of longitude wide, so at some point, they're going to have to do something about the whole question, I would guess. Our problem here is merely that of labelling the orthographic output accurately.
David Lloyd-Jones ( talk) 13:44, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
The article mentions the fact that Arizona does not observe DST, but fails to note that native Americans (Navajo Indians) follow the national practice instead. This is correctly noted in related pages such as DST in the United States however. -- Brian Josephson ( talk) 17:32, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
It said "British resident William Willett presented the idea as a way to save energy. Despite receiving some serious consideration, it was never implemented." - Isn't it implemented right now in Britain? Since 1923 or so? That means it was done but a bit later only. Or am I getting this wrong? Kind regards, 2001:56A:FA12:D300:CD96:A764:FA05:897F ( talk) 14:52, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
This is nonsense. Most of North America uses DST, and switches over to it on the second Sunday of every March. Needless to say, this is before March 20 or March 21, the only possible dates for the arrival of spring in the Northern Hemisphere. Also, this person's reference says Jordan switches to DST in October. Ouf. 184.147.89.192 ( talk) 22:15, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
I came to this article to find out how local time is disambiguated. When we "spring back" for example at 2:00AM, we reset clocks to 1:00AM, how do you refer to the first 1:15AM as opposed to the second 1:15AM? I don't see any mention of this problem or its solution here.
I would prefer if someone more knowledgeable makes this change. I noticed that individual computer languages have done their own contributions to this issue. For example https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0495/ refers to the two repeated hours as "folds."
Arif Zaman ( talk) 11:09, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
The first illustration on the page doesn't include Antarctica as currently observing DST, but since all flight come from Christchurch New Zealand via McMurdo base every settlement on Antarctica uses New Zealand time (UTC+12 standard, UTC+13 DST). Also in the past it once was designated it's own time zone (Antarctica/South_Pole), but that has fallen out of practice now with all current organizations officially using the Pacific/Auckland time zone designation. I only bring this up because I was asked about time zones in the South Pole myself and did not know (being it technically has six months of night followed by six months of day) and when I turned to this page for information on that time zone it was unclear. Maybe someone could edit this page to include this info, perhaps add a small subsection? At the very least it is an interesting fact to know. 209.160.133.10 ( talk) 19:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, I only have news in Spanish, but it seems relevant: https://www.eleconomista.com.mx/politica/Camara-de-Diputados-aprueba-eliminar-el-Horario-de-Verano-en-Mexico-pasa-al-Senado-20220929-0049.html Not A Superhero ( talk) 14:58, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
Didn't the US pass a law to permanently be on DST? Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 22:23, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
The article's title should be Daylight-saving time. Gcjnst ( talk) 20:24, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
"DST likely reduces some kinds of crime, such as robbery and sexual assault, as fewer potential victims are outdoors after dusk." There is a way that this can be rephrased to center the perpetrators instead of "potential victims". How can it be rephrased? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.248.74.197 ( talk) 00:17, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
I am not happy with this paragraph (and the shorter passage in the lede):
Benjamin Franklin published the proverb "early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise," and published a letter in the Journal de Paris during his time as an American envoy to France (1776–1785) suggesting that Parisians economize on candles by rising earlier to use morning sunlight. This 1784 satire proposed taxing window shutters, rationing candles, and waking the public by ringing church bells and firing cannons at sunrise. Despite common misconception, Franklin did not actually propose DST; 18th-century Europe did not even keep precise schedules. However, this changed as rail transport and communication networks required a standardization of time unknown in Franklin's day.
There are three reasons I would wish to delete this entirely (and also the mention in the lede).
1. The penultimate sentence says "Despite common misconception, Franklin did not actually propose DST". So why refer to Franklin at all?
2. The first sentence - Benjamin Franklin published the proverb "early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise," appears to suggest (I appreciate that, in terms, it doesn't) that this saying was first published by Franklin. In fact, it appeared in exactly the same words, and as an established saying, in John Clarke's 1639 book Paroemiologia Anglo-Latina in usum scholarum concinnata. It takes some searching to find it, but the starting point is here: [2] https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=eebo;idno=A18943.0001.001 It's worth going into the book for the other 17th-century sayings.
3. There has been no suggestion so far that Franklin's 1784 satirical letter influenced any of the subsequent proposals for DST at all. If there was anything to support the concept of a seminal Franklin idea, I'd be happy to leave some reference to Franklin in place. There are two references to Franklin's place in DST. One is the 2006 piece on historynet.com, saying "A third original invention of Franklin’s is daylight saving time", while the other is the Franklin Institute saying the contrary ("Daylight saving time is one thing that Franklin did not invent"): [3] https://www.fi.edu/benjamin-franklin/daylight-savings-time. In both cases it is clear that what Franklin actually suggested was that people should get up earlier, and he made no suggestion at all that they should change their clocks: he was in fact aiming his barb at those late-rising members of the Ancien Régime who stayed in bed until noon. I'd much prefer to align Wikipedia with the Franklin Institute and leave his name out of this article. Thomas Peardew ( talk) 10:15, 8 November 2022 (UTC)