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Article scope and content

This articule contained the tautological "Coffeemakers are currently the most popular way of making coffee at home." I fixed this sentence, but it is symptomatic of a larger issue: this page shows signs of not knowing that it is an article on coffeemakers in general (as opposed to auto-drip coffeemakers in particular). Problematically, the article on coffee preparation has some claim to being a better article on various kinds of coffeemakers than this one. It seems to me there should be a clearer hierarchy: coffee preparation should link to a fuller article on coffeemakers, which should at least include the most thorough list on Wikipedia of various kinds of coffeemakers, and link to articles for all the coffeemakers that have been treated in separate articles. Perhaps a category for coffeemakers and brewing methods (the two categories overlap so much that they should be consolidated--few coffeemakers are used for two brewing methods!) is in order. Wareh 19:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC) reply

On further reflection, I think this article should be eliminated and incorporated into the Brewing section of coffee preparation. Wareh 19:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC) reply
Anything in this article too specific for coffee preparation should go to drip brew. Wareh 19:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC) reply

Not sure

about your complaint. There was very little about drip-type coffeemakers in this article until you added the section. It was initially a stub that I added a lot of content to, so I imagine that there might be some awkward passages, but the content is substantially different to the coffee preparation page in my mind. What do you think about renaming the page History of coffee making or something like that, and adapting it accordingly? Richardjames444 20:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC) reply

Just to clarify--I did not in any way add the section on drip coffeemakers. Any additions I made are fewer than 20 words. Wareh 02:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC) reply
my apologies. I checked the edit history and I'm not sure why I said you had added the drip section. It was part of the original article. Anyway, what do you think about a move/rename to clarify the content? Richardjames444 03:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC) reply
I can easily agree with your suggestion that stuffing all this into coffee preparation might be a mistake. On the other hand, the problem with this article is that it presents a very limited slice of the "history of coffeemakers" or whatever it would be called. Simply put, it's not anywhere near having encyclopedic scope on a topic as vast as the history of coffeemakers. Clearly someone framed this article who was interested in the ascendance of the auto-drip machine industry after earlier widespread use and marketing of primitive vacuum pots and that awful mid-20th-c. American workhorse, the percolator. So much is missing from this story, when it comes to trying to survey the variety of coffeemakers, coffee consumer habits throughout the world, etc., that the idea of breaking up its content and parceling it out elsewhere is still appealing to me. There is not currently an article on the vacuum brewing method, which for most people means today's Bodum Santos machine; the back-history of the vacuum pot presented here would make a wonderful introduction to a page on that brewing method. Basically, my proposal would be, parcel out the narrative given in this page to Vacuum coffee brewer, Coffee percolator, and Drip brew. I don't think there is much here that wouldn't fit nicely in those places. On each of these pages, a gesture and link could be made to the other parts of the story; for example, at the end of the vacuum history, say that it was eclipsed in popularity over the 20th c. by the percolator and the automatic drip brew machine. Finally, coffee preparation could continue in its present role as Wiki's master list of coffee brewing methods/machines. It should be enhanced to include links to all the existing articles (for example, it doesn't mention the Neapolitan flip coffee pot--whose presence on the linkless article list was what got me into this whole jumble of coffeemaker pages). Does this seem a better proposal? I'll go ahead and remove the merger suggestion from coffee preparation meanwhile, though I'll leave it here for now. Wareh 03:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC) reply
I started this page in response to a request for it. The "Coffee Maker" is a readily identifiable auto-drip-brew appliance in the modern kitchen used for coffee preparation. In my mind, as a stub, the article described a distinct lineage from early coffee preparation methods up to and including the introduction of what we now know as the Coffee Maker. Before Mr. Coffee, for example, I don't think there was an appliance known as a "coffee maker", just percolators and other manual appliances mentioned in the current article. This article has expanded a bit and now includes the history of making coffee in general, rather than just the lineage of the coffee maker. I claim ignorance of the exact nature of other methods of coffee preparation, but that's not what this article was trying to do originally. I leave it to others to decide what to do with this article, I just wanted to state what my original purpose was. Still 20:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC) reply

Suggest merge -> Drip Brew

IMHO, Merging into Drip brew will be better than coffee preparation.

130.194.13.106 07:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC) reply

I think that's a fine strategy. It would be a section on the history and manufacturing context of the rise of auto-drip. But the material here on the two other brew methods' history is too good to be lost; it should be parcelled out to the Vacuum coffee brewing and Percolator articles. What should be done at coffee preparation is to provide more careful links to all the Wiki articles on various methods/technologies. Wareh 14:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC) reply

A section on the new coffee maker sensation that is replacing the drip brew. The one cup coffee maker. Krups and Nescafe have created a great new machine called Dulce Gusto that is a great example of one such machine. not only do you get a great fresh cup of coffee each time you use one of its little capsules. You also get a piping hot cup of coffee house quality java brewed with 15 bars of pressure. The pressure is how you get the most out of the coffee grinds. The capsules even froth and steam the milk for specialty drinks like a multilayered latte macchiato or a rich caffè lungo, a frothy cappuccino or even if you just want a shot of espresso. The multi-coffee capsule system will change the way you make, drink and think about coffee.

Wow, advertising in Wiki talk pages! But seriously, this article is still a bit schizophrenic. While there is a section on the very obscure Vacuum method, the far more common French Press, Espresso and Moka methods aren't really mentioned. cojoco ( talk) 01:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC) reply

Age of method

“The first modern method for making coffee—drip brewing—is more than 125 years old, and its design had changed little. The "Biggin", originating in France ca. 1800, was a two-level pot holding coffee in an upper compartment into which water was poured, to drain through holes in the bottom of the compartment into the coffee pot below.” Is this based on a 1930s source? - 213.115.77.102 ( talk) 11:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC) reply

Thermosiphon or riding on bubbles?

I was looking for a clear understanding of what process makes the water move through a percolator or drip tube. The article says:

Percolators

With the percolator design, water is heated in a boiling pot with a removable lid, until the heated water is forced through a metal tube (this doesn't explain the process)

Electric drip coffeemakers

The heated water moves through the machine using the thermosiphon principle. Thermally-induced pressure and siphoning effect move the heated water through an insulated rubber or vinyl riser hose, (this is clear and is explained at Thermosiphon)

However, from HowStuffWorks, found through the article's Reference 1, at [1] I read:

When the water boils, the bubbles rise up in the white tube. What happens next is exactly what happens in a typical aquarium filter: The tube is small enough and the bubbles are big enough that a column of water can ride upward on top of the bubbles.

But this contradicts the article at Thermosiphon, which says:

Also, thermosiphons can fail because a bubble in the loop, and require a circulating loop of pipes.

It seems to me that the bubble-riding explanation has the Ring of Truth, but I'm no expert. Can anyone clarify this?

-LetMeLookItUp ( talk) 22:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC) reply

Nature of article

Reading through, I can see what the article is about, but there are a number of confusing aspects of this page: The article is about "the coffeemaker" - in the, primarily American, English language this means a machine that makes coffee (imageine a kinda Boston accent or something), in the generic sense (i.e not espresso, or espresso-based, or of some other cultural origin). It is almost traditional, despite varying in it's form, as it could be a vacuum brewer, percolator or electric drip coffeemaker. In Britain we're quite used to using cafetieres (french press), I don't know whether this is so common in the US or not. The problem with this page is that it looks like it's trying to be encyclopaedic, but it's acutally about one particular (English language) culture.

Anyway, I do know that it is this distinction between espresso and coffee which is causing a lot of confusion, and it is the images of espresso machines on this page which cause this! Also the introduction doesn't support my interpritation of the page, so I suggest changing that as well. The other question is whether the page should be renamed to make it more specific to this certain type of end-result, that is "coffee (generic)" or something. Davemnt ( talk) 09:05, 7 November 2010 (UTC) reply

Vacuum pots "difficult to use?"

In the section which discusses vacuum pots, the article states the vacuum pot went out of fashion because they are "difficult to use" (citation needed for that, as vacuum pots are still quite popular, and there are several manufacturers of them).

Of my own coffeemakers (anecdotal story here, your mileage may vary), I have two different percolators (one electric), two vacuum pots (a 2011 Yama stovetop and a 1943 Sunbeam electric), a drip pot, and an espresso maker. By far the vacuum pots are the easiest to clean (you can get to all the parts, unlike the drip, electric percolator, or espresso), assemble (pop the upper vessel on, it's assembled), takes no longer to make coffee than the percolators and less time than the drip, and cost less to operate than the drip pot (no paper filters).

Since the Sunbeam model I note was not discontinued by Sunbeam until 1975, I suspect the real reason vacuum pots became "less popular" is because of marketing, especially of the then-new drip pot. Of note, Yama only -started- making them a couple years ago. 71.50.20.106 ( talk) 02:29, 19 November 2011 (UTC) reply

Three issues with this article

First, the article needs to mention espresso machines, at least a summery paragraph on them with a link to the article on espresso machines. While the term "coffee machine" in American English generally is used only to refer to coffee machines that make "brewed coffee" such as drip and french press coffee makers, espresso machines are technically a form of coffee maker, as espresso is a style of coffee. As such this the article needs to include at least some mention of espresso machines. Second, this article should also mention the Turkish coffee pot, the cezve. Second, their are certain downsides to various coffee making methods that are missing from the article such as:

  • Many percolators during it's heyday had a design flaw that allowed the coffee to be circulated through more then once which could cause it to burn if left peculating too long.
  • French press machines require you to grind your coffee to a some courser consistency or else you can end up with unwanted grits in your coffee.

-- Notcharliechaplin ( talk) 03:57, 2 March 2013 (UTC) reply

Uncited material in need of citations

I am moving the following uncited material here until it can be properly supported with inline citations of reliable, secondary sources, per WP:V, WP:CS, WP:IRS, WP:PSTS, WP:BLP, WP:NOR, et al. This diff shows where it was in the article. Nightscream ( talk) 20:23, 14 July 2021 (UTC) reply

History

For hundreds of years, making a cup of coffee was a simple process. Roasted and ground coffee beans were placed in a pot or pan, to which hot water was added and followed by the attachment of a lid to commence the infusion process. Pots were designed specifically for brewing coffee, all to try to trap the coffee grounds before the coffee is poured. Typical designs feature a pot with a flat expanded bottom to catch sinking grounds and a sharp pour spout that traps the floating grinds. Other designs feature a wide bulge in the middle of the pot to catch grounds when coffee is poured. citation needed

In about 1889 the infusion brewing process was introduced in France. This involved immersing the ground coffee beans, usually enclosed in a linen bag, in hot water and letting it steep or "infuse" until the desired strength brew was achieved. Nevertheless, throughout the 19th and even the early 20th centuries, it was considered adequate to add ground coffee to hot water in a pot or pan, boil it until it smelled right, and pour the brew into a cup. citation needed

There were many innovations from France in the late 18th century. With help from Jean-Baptiste de Belloy, the Archbishop of Paris, the idea that coffee should not be boiled gained acceptance. The first modern method for making coffee using a coffee filter— drip brewing—is more than 125 years old, and its design had changed little. The biggin, originating in France ca. 1780, was a two-level pot holding the coffee in a cloth sock in an upper compartment into which water was poured, to drain through holes in the bottom of the compartment into the coffee pot below. Coffee was then dispensed from a spout on the side of the pot. The quality of the brewed coffee depended on the size of the grounds - too coarse and the coffee was weak; too fine and the water would not drip the filter. A major problem with this approach was that the taste of the cloth filter - whether cotton, burlap or an old sock - transferred to the taste of the coffee. Around the same time, a French inventor developed the " pumping percolator", in which boiling water in a bottom chamber forces itself up a tube and then trickles (percolates) through the ground coffee back into the bottom chamber. Among other French innovations, Count Rumford, an eccentric American scientist residing in Paris, developed a French Drip Pot with an insulating water jacket to keep the coffee hot. Also, the first metal filter was developed and patented by a French inventor. citation needed

Types

Vacuum brewers

Other coffee brewing devices became popular throughout the nineteenth century, including various machines using the vacuum principle. The Napier Vacuum Machine which was invented in 1840, was an early example of this type. While generally too complex for everyday use, vacuum devices were prized for producing a clear brew and were popular until the middle of the twentieth century. citation needed

The principle of a vacuum brewer was to heat water in a lower vessel until expansion forced the contents through a narrow tube into an upper vessel containing ground coffee. When the lower vessel was empty and sufficient brewing time had elapsed, the heat was removed and the resulting vacuum would draw the brewed coffee back through a strainer into the lower chamber, from which it could be decanted. The Bauhaus interpretation of this device can be seen in Gerhard Marcks' Sintrax coffee maker of 1925. citation needed

An early variant technique, called a balance siphon, was to have the two chambers arranged side-by-side on a sort of scale-like device, with a counterweight attached opposite the initial (or heating) chamber. Once the near-boiling water was forced from the heating chamber into the brewing one, the counterweight was activated, causing a spring-loaded snuffer to come down over the flame, thus turning "off" the heat, and allowing the cooled water to return to the original chamber. In this way, a sort of primitive 'automatic' brewing method was achieved. citation needed

An electrically heated stove was incorporated into the design of the vacuum brewer. Water was heated in a recessed well, which reduced wait times and forced the hottest water into the reaction chamber. Once the process was complete, a thermostat using bi-metallic expansion principles shut off heat to the unit at the appropriate time. Peirce's invention was the first truly "automatic" vacuum coffee brewer, and was later incorporated in the Farberware Coffee Robot. citation needed

Pierce's design was later improved by U.S. appliance engineers Ivar Jepson, Ludvik Koci, and Eric Bylund of Sunbeam in the late 1930s. They altered the heating chamber and eliminated the recessed well which was hard to clean. They also made several improvements to the filtering mechanism. Their improved design of plated metals, styled by industrial designer Alfonso Iannelli, became the famous Sunbeam Coffeemaster line of automated vacuum coffee makers (Models C-20, C-30, C40, and C-50). The Coffeemaster vacuum brewer was sold in large numbers in the United States during the years immediately following World War I. citation needed

Percolators

Main article: Coffee percolator

Percolators began to be developed from the mid-nineteenth century. In the United States, James H. Mason of Massachusetts patented an early percolator design in 1865. An Illinois farmer named Hanson Goodrich is generally credited with patenting the modern percolator. Goodrich's patent was granted on August 16, 1889, and his patent description varies little from the stovetop percolators sold today. With the percolator design, water is heated in a boiling pot with a removable lid, until the heated water is forced through a metal tube into a brew basket containing coffee. The extracted liquid drains from the brew basket, where it drips back into the pot. This process is continually repeated during the brewing cycle until the liquid passing repeatedly through the grounds is sufficiently steeped. A clear sight chamber in the form of a transparent knob on the lid of the percolator enables the user to judge when the coffee has reached the proper colour and strength. citation needed

Domestic electrification simplified the operation of percolators by providing for a self-contained, electrically powered heating element that removed the need to use a stovetop burner. A critical element in the success of the electric coffee maker was the creation of safe and secure fuses and heating elements. In an article in House Furnishing Review, May 1915, Lewis Stephenson of Landers, Frary and Clark described a modular safety plug being used in his company's Universal appliances, and the advent of numerous patents and innovations in temperature control and circuit breakers provided for the success of many new percolator and vacuum models. While early percolators had utilized all-glass construction (prized for maintaining purity of flavour), most percolators made from the 1930s were constructed of metal, especially aluminium and nickel-plated copper. citation needed

The method for making coffee in a percolator had barely changed since its introduction in the early part of the 20th century. However, in 1970 General Foods Corporation introduced Max Pax, the first commercially available "ground coffee filter rings". The Max Pax filters were named to compliment General Foods' Maxwell House coffee brand. The Max Pax coffee filter rings were designed for use in percolators, and each ring contained a pre-measured amount of coffee grounds that were sealed in a self-contained paper filter. The sealed rings resembled the shape of a doughnut, and the small hole in the middle of the ring enabled the coffee filter ring to be placed in the metal percolator basket around the protruding convection (percolator) tube. citation needed

Before the introduction of pre-measured self-contained ground coffee filter rings, fresh coffee grounds were measured out in scoopfuls and placed into the metal percolator basket. This process enabled small amounts of coffee grounds to leak into the fresh coffee. Additionally, the process left wet grounds in the percolator basket, which were very tedious to clean. The benefit of the Max Pax coffee filter rings was two-fold: First, because the amount of coffee contained in the rings was pre-measured, it negated the need to measure each scoop and then place it in the metal percolator basket. Second, the filter paper was strong enough to hold all the coffee grounds within the sealed paper. After use, the coffee filter ring could be easily removed from the basket and discarded. This saved the consumer from the tedious task of cleaning out the remaining wet coffee grounds from the percolator basket. citation needed

With the introduction of the electric drip coffee maker for the home in the early 1970s, the popularity of percolators plummeted, and so did the market for the self-contained ground coffee filters. In 1976, General Foods discontinued the manufacture of Max Pax, and by the end of the decade, even generic ground coffee filter rings were no longer available on U.S. supermarket shelves. citation needed

Moka pot

Main article: Moka pot

The Moka pot is a stove-top coffee maker which produces coffee by passing hot water pressurized by steam through ground coffee. It was first patented by inventor Luigi De Ponti for Alfonso Bialetti in 1933. Bialetti Industries continues to produce the same model under the name "Moka Express". citation needed

The Moka pot is most commonly used in Europe and Latin America. It has become an iconic design, displayed in modern industrial art and design museums such as the Wolfsonian- FIU, Museum of Modern Art, the Cooper–Hewitt, National Design Museum, the Design Museum, and the London Science Museum. Moka pots come in different sizes, from one to eighteen 50 ml cups. The original design and many current models are made from aluminium with bakelite handles. citation needed

Electric drip coffeemakers

Main article: Brewed coffee

An electric drip coffee maker can also be referred to as a dripolator. It normally works by admitting water from a cold water reservoir into a flexible hose in the base of the reservoir leading directly to a thin metal tube or heating chamber (usually, of aluminium), where a heating element surrounding the metal tube heats the water. The heated water moves through the machine using the thermosiphon principle. Thermally-induced pressure and the siphoning effect move the heated water through an insulated rubber or vinyl riser hose, into a spray head, and onto the ground coffee, which is contained in a brew basket mounted below the spray head. The coffee passes through a filter and drips down into the carafe. A one-way valve in the tubing prevents water from siphoning back into the reservoir. A thermostat attached to the heating element turns off the heating element as needed to prevent overheating the water in the metal tube (overheating would produce only steam in the supply hose), then turns back on when the water cools below a certain threshold. clarification needed For a standard 10-12 cup drip coffeemaker, using a more powerful thermostatically-controlled heating element (in terms of wattage produced), can heat increased amounts of water more quickly using larger heating chambers, generally producing higher average water temperatures at the spray head over the entire brewing cycle. This process can be further improved by changing the aluminium construction of most heating chambers to a metal with superior heat transfer qualities, such as copper. citation needed

Throughout the latter part of the 20th century, many inventors patented various coffeemaker designs using an automated form of the drip brew method. Subsequent designs have featured changes in heating elements, spray head, and brew-basket design, as well as the addition of timers and clocks for automatic-start, water filtration, filter and carafe design, a "drip stop" feature to pause the flow of brewed coffee when the carafe is removed, and even built-in coffee grinding mechanisms. citation needed

Pourover, water displacement drip coffeemakers

Bunn-O-Matic came out with a different drip-brew machine and in this type of coffeemaker, the machine uses a holding tank or boiler pre-filled with water. When the machine is turned on, all of the water in the holding tank is brought to near boiling point (approximately 200–207 °F or 93–97 °C) using a thermostatically-controlled heating element. When water is poured into a top-mounted tray, it descends into a funnel and tube which delivers the cold water to the bottom of the boiler. The less-dense hot water in the boiler is displaced out of the tank and into a tube leading to the spray head, where it drips into a brew basket containing the ground coffee. The pour-over, water displacement method of coffeemaking tends to produce brewed coffee at a much faster rate than standard drip designs. Its primary disadvantage is increased electricity consumption to preheat the water in the boiler. Additionally, the water displacement method is most efficient when used to brew coffee at the machine's maximum or near-maximum capacity, as typically found in restaurant or office usage. In 1963, Bunn introduced the first automatic coffee brewer, which connected to a waterline for an automatic water feed. citation needed

Cafetiere

Coffee is brewed by placing the water (heated to 195-205 °F, 90-96 °C) and coffee together, stirring it and leaving to brew for a few minutes, then pressing the plunger to trap the coffee grounds at the bottom of the beaker. citation needed

Other approaches consider a brew period that may extend to hours as a method of superior production. citation needed

Coffee commonly consumed in Southern India known as filter coffee is made using a simple steel version of cafetiere. citation needed

Espresso machine

An espresso machine forces pressurized water through fine grounds to produce a thick, concentrated coffee. Espresso machines may be steam-driven, piston-driven, pump-driven, or air-pump-driven. Machines may also be manual or automatic. citation needed

Single-serve coffeemaker

Single-serve brewing systems let a certain amount of water heated at a precise temperature go through a coffee portion pack (or coffee pod), brewing a standardized cup of coffee into a recipient placed under the beverage outlet. A coffee portion pack has an air-tight seal to ensure product freshness. It contains a determined quantity of ground coffee and usually encloses an internal filter paper for optimal brewing results. citation needed

The single-serve coffeemaker technology often allows the choice of cup size and brew strength, and delivers a cup of brewed coffee rapidly, usually at the touch of a button. Today, a variety of beverages are available for brewing with single-cup machines such as tea, hot chocolate and milk-based speciality beverages. Single-cup coffee machines are designed for both home and commercial use. citation needed

Design considerations in coffeemakers

At the beginning of the twentieth century, although some coffee makers tended to uniformity of design (particularly stovetop percolators), others displayed a wide variety of styling differences. In particular, the vacuum brewer, which required two fully separate chambers joined in an hourglass configuration, seemed to inspire industrial designers. Interest in new designs for the vacuum brewer revived during the American Arts & Crafts movement with the introduction of "Silex" brand coffee makers, based on models developed by Massachusetts housewives Ann Bridges and Mrs Sutton. Their use of Pyrex solved the problem of fragility and breakability that had made this type of machine commercially unattractive. During the 1930s, simple, clean forms, increasingly of metal, attracted positive attention from industrial designers heavily influenced by the functionalist imperative of the Bauhaus and Streamline movements. It was at this time that Sunbeam's sleek Coffeemaster vacuum brewer appeared, styled by the famous industrial designer Alfonso Iannelli. The popularity of glass and Pyrex globes temporarily revived during the Second World War, since aluminium, chrome, and other metals used in traditional coffee makers became restricted in availability. citation needed

The impact of science and technological advances as a motif in post-war design was eventually felt in the manufacture and marketing of coffee and coffee-makers. Consumer guides emphasized the ability of the device to meet standards of temperature and brewing time, and the ratio of soluble elements between brew and grounds. The industrial chemist Peter Schlumbohm expressed the scientific motif most purely in his "Chemex" coffeemaker, which from its initial marketing in the early 1940s used the authority of science as a sales tool, describing the product as "the Chemist's way of making coffee", and discussing at length the quality of its product in the language of the laboratory: "the funnel of the CHEMEX creates ideal hydrostatic conditions for the unique... Chemex extraction." Schlumbohm's unique brewer, a single Pyrex vessel shaped to hold a proprietary filter cone, resembled nothing more than a piece of laboratory equipment, and surprisingly became popular for a time in the otherwise heavily automated, technology-obsessed 1950s household. citation needed

In later years, coffeemakers began to adopt more standardized forms commensurate with a large increase in the scale of production required to meet postwar consumer demand. Plastics and composite materials began to replace metal, particularly with the advent of newer electric drip coffeemakers in the 1970s. During the 1990s, consumer demand for more attractive appliances to complement expensive modern kitchens resulted in a new wave of redesigned coffeemakers in a wider range of available colours and styles. citation needed

Unusual designs

Several models of propane gas powered coffee machines are also available. citation needed

Coffee pots

This article corresponds to two different categories in Commons: [ Coffee pots and Coffeemaking implements. Perhaps a separate article is needed for "Coffee pot". Johnsoniensis ( talk) 14:48, 4 December 2022 (UTC) reply

Missing Information

This article seems very lacking in the “types” of coffee makers. It seems that in July of 2021 a large section of the article was removed. While I understand the reason was the lack of sources it seems that such edit has left quite a bit left out. This section had no mention of the pour over, Moka pot (only listed as “Italian style” under a picture), espresso, AeroPress, percolators, etc. it could lead one to believe that coffee makers only come in vacuum, French press and pod. while I understand that there is a very large list of makers (a lot are in the see also) I certainly don’t feel that The three “types” is very representative of the types there are. looking at other languages it seems that ones like the Spanish article are much more informative. 216.146.249.237 ( talk) 06:00, 27 December 2023 (UTC) reply

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