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would it be enough for him to be considered notable, especially since there are so many news articles discussing the matter? 178.135.11.148 ( talk) 16:20, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
- I do not know a lot about this but it does look like WP:1E, he did not get an article until he came out as trans. If you ask me it would WP:1E but other people may think differently. (This is my option and I am not trying to harm anyone) LuxembourgLover ( talk) 19:17, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
It's been reported that Tyson goes by any pronouns. Originally, this article was using he/him however I chose to change it because CNN and Insider have chosen to use they/them, and Variety has chosen to avoid pronouns. Haven't seen anything with he/him. While I don't think using he/him technically violates MOS:GENDERID, it still is best to use the pronouns that are both acceptable under GENDERID and are prevalent in reliable sources. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 05:18, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Tyson said that they were still fine with he/him in latest statement. From what I can find, almost every news organization uses "he/him" pronouns as well for Tyson, outside of CNN.
- MrBeast also
still exclusively uses masculine pronouns for Tyson as well.
KlayCax (
talk) 15:11, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what the policy is here. If Tyson primarily uses he/him pronouns — and their friends do as well — shouldn't we use the most common/last used term?
- Correct me if I'm wrong, @
Iamreallygoodatcheckers:.
KlayCax (
talk) 17:50, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
KlayCax: As reported by reliable sources, Tyson uses any pronouns. So, any (she/he/they) pronoun should theoretically pass GENDERID. At least that's what I think. Now, I think we should use they/them for a couple reasons: (1) Tyson's status as using all pronouns is unusual, perhaps even close to being considered a neopronoun. If we want to look at it from that angle then GENDERID would recommend they/them. (2) From the recent reliable sources I've seen about Tyson all of them have used they/them. I cited the CNN, Insider, and Variety above, but here are some more sources that use they/them:
PinkNews,
People,
Insider (different article),
Buzzfeed. Now to address your concern that primarily Tyson uses he/him, it may very well be the case that if Tyson primarily used he/him then he/him may be the best option. However, I don't believe it has been established that Tyson primarily uses he/him. One tweet from MrBeast doesn't cut it imo. On balance, it's best err on the side of caution and use they/them which is acceptable under MoS and used by RS.
Iamreallygoodatcheckers
talk 18:56, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- ...re "Tyson's status as using all pronouns is unusual, perhaps even close to being considered a neopronoun": er...huh? Are you interpreting "Tyson uses any pronouns" to mean we have to switch pronouns from sentence to sentence so as to use them all, or how are you arriving at the idea it's like a neopronoun? It just means any set of pronouns we choose to use throughout the article is fine...and if Tyson and RS are still mostly using he — and AFAICT from looking at coverage of and statements by Tyson, they are — then there's no reason for us to change this article at this time. If, later on, Tyson expresses a preference for she or they, etc, we can switch to that. -sche ( talk) 03:46, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
KlayCax: As reported by reliable sources, Tyson uses any pronouns. So, any (she/he/they) pronoun should theoretically pass GENDERID. At least that's what I think. Now, I think we should use they/them for a couple reasons: (1) Tyson's status as using all pronouns is unusual, perhaps even close to being considered a neopronoun. If we want to look at it from that angle then GENDERID would recommend they/them. (2) From the recent reliable sources I've seen about Tyson all of them have used they/them. I cited the CNN, Insider, and Variety above, but here are some more sources that use they/them:
PinkNews,
People,
Insider (different article),
Buzzfeed. Now to address your concern that primarily Tyson uses he/him, it may very well be the case that if Tyson primarily used he/him then he/him may be the best option. However, I don't believe it has been established that Tyson primarily uses he/him. One tweet from MrBeast doesn't cut it imo. On balance, it's best err on the side of caution and use they/them which is acceptable under MoS and used by RS.
Iamreallygoodatcheckers
talk 18:56, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
 Response to
third opinion request:
|
|
I have a question. I am not being facetious, this is a real question intended to illicit a response. If Tyson doesn't care - why should we? What is to be accomplished by "correcting" an edit that, per the subject themselves, is not in error? Padillah ( talk) 14:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC) Padillah ( talk) 15:10, 24 April 2023 (UTC) |
If Tyson doesn't care - why should we?
- Because Tyson doesn't own this article, and Tyson being satisfied is not the only parameter here. Tyson is satisfied with either he/him or they/them. Therefore, if you go by what satisfies Tyson you are left with a draw. That still leaves a question as to what pronouns should be used for this article. Using he/him may not be an error in the eye's of Tyson but it may not be what is best for this article, especially considering weight with reliable sources. Padillah, since you are the 3O responder, it would be appreciated if you could opine more directly on the dispute in that manner. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 03:29, 25 April 2023 (UTC)- You are right. I apologize for not considering the impact of the two sides of this question.
- While I agree that not making a decision can lead to the article being confusing and difficult to read.
- Tyson has explicitly said they don't care, so our response should not be to shove them in a box because we think we must do something.
- I have opened a discussion topic on the MOS talk page in the hopes that we can use this as a jumping off point for a broader discussion and more firmly established guidelines. Padillah ( talk) 13:23, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
As I mentioned at
WP:BLPN, per
MOS:GIDINFO the old photo (well video grab) from before Tyson started hormone therapy seems clearly inappropriate as the infobox photo. "Avoid using an out-of-date, pre-coming-out photo of a transgender subject as a lead image. If no other photos are available, it is generally better to have no lead image at all. In general, avoid using pre-coming-out photos unless the subject's pre-transition appearance is especially well-known and notable.
" While it's not clear how much Tyson cares about this particular issue, unless we have sources confirming they do not care it should not be primary photo. Potentially it could be part of the article somewhere else as part of discussion of Tyson's work on the MrBeast channel, but IMO given how short this article is there's no reason to include it anywhere at the moment. As for the infobox, it would probably be better to wait a few months and then look for a current photo.
Nil Einne (
talk) 04:32, 22 April 2023 (UTC)