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Archive 1 |
This page needs to say approoximately how many species of chordates there are. -- Savant13 13:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
In Taxonomy, should not tetrapodes (and below) be moved one step to the left? Can someone please evaluate the recent papers by vienne, et al (metaphylogeny of 82 genes sheds new light on chordate evolution) and Delsuc, et al (Tunicates and not cephalochordates are the closest living relatives of vertebrates)- I am not a professional biologist and so really don't feel I should put it in, but I think it should be commented on.
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According to http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/chordata/chordata.html, the four characteristics of all chordates are the following:
pharyngeal slits - a series of openings that connect the inside of the throat to the outside of the "neck". These are often, but not always, used as gills.
dorsal nerve cord - a bundle of nerve fibers which runs down the "back". It connects the brain with the lateral muscles and other organs.
notochord - cartilaginous rod running underneath, and supporting, the nerve cord.
post-anal tail - an extension of the body past the anal opening.
I looked at tackling Vertebrata. Rather than redirect to Chordata I would have considered a separate page for Vertebrata to deal only with lower level taxonomy. Chordatea would then be reserved for the higher level discussion of the phylum into its sub-phyla.
We really need to decide on a set of vertebrate classes for use in wikipedia. Obviously a perfect (maybe even a satisfactory) scheme is impossible because the classification is currently unsettled, and different sources emphasize different priorities in its construction. However, at the moment we have pages using various older and newer schemes, and this only adds confusion. I would like to try tackling the problem of working out a standard system. Hopefully we can come up with something which is at least tolerable.
As a general approach, I think we should start with the traditional classes and try modifying them into holophyletic groups as much as is possible without completely reinventing the system. Also, we should work by picking and choosing from extant classifications, i.e. not introduce any new innovations. As always, the variant systems should be explained on the relevant pages; the important thing is not to have to do this for every order and family.
Rank of Vertebrata
The Vertebrata are traditionally ranked as a subphylum of the phylum Chordata. Many newer sources, however, distinguish the Craniata from the Vertebrata, the difference being that the former includes the hagfish. Such sources may assign ranks in a few different ways:
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It is hard to tell which of these systems has the most support, but I think it is the second one. However, it is still far more common not to distinguish craniates and vertebrates, and so to have Chordata and Vertebrata as phylum and subphylum. Given this, I think the best option would be to keep these ranks, but acknowledge the new distinction by treating the hagfish as a subphylum, i.e. the first system. The name Myxini appears to be the most common for the rank of subphylum or class.
Jawless fish
Earlier classifications group jawless fish together as a class Agnatha, but they are not closely related to each other, and the idea of treating them as several different classes has been around for a long time. Sometimes the Agnatha is retained as a superclass, but I don't think there is much reason to do this, especially if the hagfish are being excluded from the vertebrates altogether. Exactly what classes should be used is a less obvious matter. The only extant forms, which we should worry about first, are the lampreys. It looks like they are most often placed in a class Cephalaspidomorphi. However, I imagine such a class would also include the extinct Cephalaspidiformes, which are no longer considered especially close to lampreys. As such a less common group, like Petromyzontida.
Jawed fish
The class Chondrichthyes and the extinct classes Placodermi and Acanthodii do not appear controversial, and I don't think we should not hesitate to use them. The Osteichthyes are more problematic. Traditionally they are treated as a class, with subclasses Actinopterygii and Sarcopterygii, but the latter is paraphyletic to the land vertebrates. As such, the land vertebrates are sometimes included as sisters or children of the Sarcopterygii, with various promotions or demotions of ranks to allow them to fit. Some sources, for instance ITIS, do not do this but still promote the Osteichthyes and its subtaxa. Alternatively its children may be promoted, and the Osteichthyes themselves abandoned.
I think the last would work best for us. Most fish would then be placed in the class Actinopterygii. Aside from the slight adjustment in rank, this is straight out of the traditional system (so should be fairly recognisable) and is entirely stable, unlike the Osteichthyes. It's not quite so clear what to do with the Sarcopterygii, whether to keep that as a paraphyletic class or to further divide it. Some sources list classes Actinistia ( coelocanths) and Dipnoi ( lungfish), but these don't cover all the extinct members, and I doubt anyone has erected separate classes for all of them. We may want to try treating them as orders without definite classes for the time being, as is done with Collembola and the like; this could apply to the living forms as well, since there are relatively few. I am not sure how this could be done in the parent taxobox, however.
Land vertebrates
Living amphibians probably form a monophyletic group, and so their treatment as a class Amphibia is no problem. The fossil ones are more difficult. Traditionally they were all included in the Amphibia, with living forms and their closer relatives comprising the subclass Lissamphibia. However, that makes the group paraphyletic, and so some have either restricted it to those forms closer to the Lissamphibia than the amniotes, or abandoned it in favour of a class Lissamphibia. I think we should keep Amphibia as a class. I would suggest giving it the narrower meaning, and so treating forms like Ichthyostega as tetrapods without a definite class.
The amniotes are especially hard to deal with. The traditional system divides them into classes Mammalia, Aves, and Reptilia. As the last is paraphyletic, varying other systems have been proposed with some support, especially among palaeontologists. The generally accepted relationship among living forms is as follows:
As far as these go, the mammals do fine as a separate class. However, this leads to problems considering the mammal-like reptiles. Traditionally these are placed in class Reptilia, subclass Synapsida, but they are closer relatives to mammals than they are to any other reptiles, and as such are excluded from phylogenetic definitions of reptiles. If the mammals are demoted to a subclass, they may be grouped with them as a class Synapsida, but otherwise these forms are difficult to place. It doesn't help that orders and families are confused as well. I think that at the moment they are probably not worth altering the traditional class Mammalia, and should probably be treated as having uncertain placement, for classes and for lower level ranks.
The other forms are more complicated, because birds fit right in the middle of the extant reptiles. A small but increasing number sources take the Reptilia, or Sauropsida as it may then be called, to include them. The same is even more true for the Diapsida and Archosauria, either of which could be a reptile subclass in traditional systems. The idea that the birds belong among the Dinosauria, traditionally a superorder, has made some entry into popular science. Some time ago Bakker had proposed changing the class Aves for a class Dinosauria, with Aves as a subclass, but this does little for the other reptiles and never really caught on.
The straightforward approach would be to demote Aves to a subclass, and include it in the class Reptilia. This, however, does not lend itself to making groups among the other reptile orders, and I have not seen it done. I have seen the Aves included in a class Diapsida, with a separate class Anapsida. This may stem from the idea that the mammals and diapsids are closer to each other than to the anapsids; things like the tree of life reject this, but I don't know if it has lost all support. Exactly how to organize the internal structure of this class isn't clear, but generally involves further demoting the birds. Another system which appears more common is to have three sauropsid classes, Anapsida, Lepidosauria, and Archosauria. The birds are usually a subclass of the last - occasionally an infraclass in the subclass Dinosauria, but I think we should stay away from infraclasses for such important groups, especially when all it accomplishes is a better treatment of the dinosaur groups (some of which are bound to be paraphyletic to birds no matter what).
As such, I would support dividing the amniotes into four classes, i.e. Anapsida, Lepidosauria, Archosauria, and Mammalia, with the mammal-like reptiles left tentatively classless. However, this system is contingent on the demotion of Aves to subclass, and I don't know enough about birds to know if this would be reasonable for ornithologists. Failing that, some have suggested promoting each of the reptile orders to classes, but this does not work at all for fossil forms. Leaving groups like dinosaurs, pterosaurs, and ichthyosaurs unclassified does not seem to me nearly as reasonable as doing the same with basal amphibians, so if this is the case I think we would need to retain the Reptilia.
Please let me know what you think about these. If someone wants, I would be happy to make up a couple of possible taxoboxes.
Interesting, Josh. I have to say that outside the birds, I haven't really had much idea what the current state of play is. Birds are a mess. Although Sibley et al have done valuable work on clarifying relationships, but their work is not without controversy, and is often felt to ignore non-DNA factors. The Americans have embraced Sibley whole-heartedly, but Europe has generally been more cautious.
The present state of the bird articles are something of a compromise, but, since the large majority are written by Europeans and Australians, tend to be fairly traditional. Exceptions, however, abound. Albatross follows a very recent BOU guideline, and many southern species are based on HANZAB. This probably doesn't help at all. jimfbleak 06:31 29 May 2003 (UTC)
One thing that has struck me about categories of fish is that some are very stable, and others under constant revision. I've been leaning towards pruning taxoboxes down to not include much that seems likely to change - it reduces their value a little as navigational devices, but not that badly. Then articles like Actinopterygii and Chordate can list out old and new taxa schemes. If a scheme becomes unfashionable, then all you have to do is annotate it with "no longer used, but possibly a useful reference when reading old books". (One of FishBase's amusing features is the list of previously-used names for species, often clarifies other mystifying sources.) Trying to develop and use a single scheme seems crazy-making, when we've got the room and the freedom to describe multiple competing schemes.
To take a specific example, Craniata is worth an article describing how and why it might be used, but I don't think it's useful to readers to include it in taxoboxes, and if it falls out of favor, that would be a lot of taxoboxes to edit. Stan 17:12 29 May 2003 (UTC)
On the other hand, if ranking Vertebrata as a subphylum fell out of favour, we would have just as much work ahead of us. That particular one doesn't seem especially likely, but in general there is a problem in that many of the standard groups seem likely to change. If you have some idea about which ones are worth keeping, I would be interested.
I agree with you that wikipedia can and should review all the different systems, or as many as possible. But when it comes down to it, things like guppies, grass snakes, and pigs will end up listing something in their taxoboxes, with minimal room for comment (I might note that I initially objected to taxoboxes for exactly this reason). It would be best if we had something standard to put there to avoid confusion, even something that might change later.
-- Josh
Ok, then. Instead of pointing out the obvious, that the classification of chordates is incredibly variable and that there is no good way of settling on a single system, maybe you could suggest an alternative. Should we omit taxoboxes on vertebrate pages, should we include them but omit classes, should we include classes but not worry about any kind of consistency between different pages, or what? The need for a single system is a problem which we could have avoided, but we adopted it anyways, and it doesn't do much good to say it's unfeasible now.
I agree that, despite their limitations, the taxoboxes have turned out to be cool and useful. That's why I've added them to a number of groups, and why I would like to add them here. The problem is that doing that requires deciding on a particular higher level classification to work with, which is why I wanted to see people's opinions on the matter. I'm not trying to force much else onto the way the lower levels are treated - I would suggest leaving out intermediate ranks that are not standard or are variable, but both you and Stan obviously already know that.
So, then, in absence of specific suggestions, I'm going to go ahead and add classes which I think will work best for the time being. The rationale is that given above, plus me being to timid to try splitting the Reptilia and demoting the Aves without anyone's support. Please don't hesitate to suggest changes.
Does anyone have a source for "bands of muscles that go around the body" as a criteria for chordates? As far as I'm concerned, the slits, notochord, hollow nerve cord and post-anal tail are the "main" characteristics. jag123 17:11, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This was mentioned by Sholtar below, but I believe that it is a matter of taxonomy. I am not an expert, but from the page on Craniates and its references, it appears that modern (2010) DNA results have conclusively shown that Cyclostomata is monophylectic, making Craniata a junior synonym for Vertebrata. Would it be correct to update the numerous references throughout the page to consistently refer to vertebrates? I believe that craniates should still be mentioned in the taxonomy section to recognize the relationship and provide clarification. Is it good practice to simply copy the references from the craniates page or should I leave editing for an expert?
This should probably be reflected on many other articles as well, but I will discuss it on their respective talk pages.
Pscyking ( talk) 19:50, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Rather than have tuna representing both vertebrates and chordates - which will leave people seriously confused at first - I propose we should include more than one picture, or possibly taxobox:
Hagfish | |
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Pacific Hagfish resting on bottom 280 m down off Oregon coast | |
Scientific classification | |
Kingdom: | |
Phylum: | |
Class: | Myxini
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Order: | Myxiniformes
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Family: | Myxinidae
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- Samsara 17:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Tunicates | |
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Sea Tulips, Pyura spinifera | |
Scientific classification | |
Kingdom: | |
Phylum: | |
Subphylum: | Urochordata
Giribet et al., 2000 |
Until recently the classification tree in the main body of the text (not the one under the picture) was indented to indicate the ranks of the clades, with evolutionary relations indicated roughly by the order of the clades at a given "degree of indentation". Someone recently indented everything from tetrapod down inside dipnoi, on the (correct) grounds that tetrapods evolved from lungfish. But is the tree meant to replresent this fact in this way? If there's a convention, please state it. But the tree now looks as though it's saying that tetrapods are a kind of lungfish.
Also, I'm really worried here, because I don't want to be a lungfish.
Bony fish aren't listed in the taxobox. I'd change it, but I have no idea how to edit a taxobox. Bony fish are the class Osteichthyes, subphylum Vertebrata.
erm...are you sure all chordates have a musculer tail? humans don't plus a million other vertebrates...or am i missing something.
The placement of hagfishes in this tree is a problem because opinion is divided whether or not they are related to lampreys. Two centuries ago both hagfishes and lampreys were classified together as "Cyclostomi" based on some shared features, and the cyclostomes were taken to be the sister group to jawed vertebrates (Gnathostomata). The many simple features of hagfishes were taken to be the result of degeneration owing to parasitic life.
Later, it was realized that hagfish is an active predator, not just a parasite, so it may not have simplified so much after all. Perhaps it retained its simple features from an ancestral state. In that case, it must have diverged from vertebrates long before the split between the lampreys and gnathostomes.
Linnaeus apparently used the names Craniata and Vertebrata interchangeably. But since hagfishes lack actual vertebrae but do have a cranium, it seemed logical to apply the name Vertebrata to the (lamprey + gnathostome) group, and Craniata to the more inclusive group of (vertebrates + hagfishes). (See < http://tolweb.org/Craniata/>)
Now the tables may have turned again. Many molecular studies have concluded that hagfishes and lampreys may be sister groups after all, which implies that the ancestors of hagfishes once had vertebrate and other vertebrate characters, but lost them for whatever reason. In that case, hagfishes are true vertebrates, and the taxon Craniata becomes redundant.
It's not clear that the dispute between morphology and molecules has been resolved. One way to keep the classification neutral until the dust clears would be to list hagfishes, lampreys, and gnathostomes as equal groups under Craniata, without implying a closer relationship among any of the three. Fossil groups of jawless fishes could also be listed the same way under craniates.
The main problem with that solution is it leaves Vertebrata in limbo. If hagfishes are sister group to lampreys, the more familiar Vertebrata should be used in preference to Craniata, and the most recent edits to the Chordate article would be the best approach. Regardless of what we decide, the discussion of the subphyla should address this controversy.
Cephal-odd 07:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I've made a few changes to the list - my aim was to add the Superclass Osteichthyes with the classes Actinopterygii (ray-finned fish) and Sarcopterygii (lobe-finned fish) within them. Though I ended up altering format a bit. Have I got this right? HappyVR 18:35, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to do what I suggested above - adding lines to show evolutionary relationships - unforunately can't get rid of the box round the section at the moment. Is this ok? HappyVR 18:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Could someone merge the list in a table on the right side, like every other page I saw (for example Animalia or at least like Carnivora) for consistency?
On 7 March 2006, 24.61.98.230 wrote:
On 7 May 2006, M Alan Kazlev altered this to:
This comment must be substantiated. I am removing it; either of the above users may feel free to add it back with an appropriate citation. -- April Arcus 20:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
User:Freepsbane just added Hemichordata as a subordinate group to Chordata. I had thought that the chordates and the hemichordates were sister groups. I'm going to revert this, because I can't find any source for the claim.
The sources I usually depend on here are the NCBI Taxonomy Homepage and the Tree of Life site. Neither of these has hemichordates as a daughter group of chordates. ToL, in fact, says that the hemichordates are more closely allied to the echinoderms than either are to the chordates.
Furthermore, the Wikipedia article on the Hemichordata calls it a phylum, not a subphylum, and does not give Chordata as a parent group. And the text of this article itself says things "... is broken up into three subphyla ..." and then does not list hemichordates.
If we decide to change this, we should change it everywhere. ACW 14:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
As said above, there are too many differences, and not just the vertebrae, vertebrates have a backbone, a central nervous system, a spinal cord, a brain case, sensory organs, and a head.
However, I do believe that Tunicates and Lancelets are a sister phylum of vertebrates and are our closest living relatives, which means I believe that they are closely related but form an outgroup to the assembledge of Vertebrates, so yes, I believe they are in the same superphylum, but not in the same phylum, as there are more differences than there are similarities.
It is accurate to classify them as the same superphylum as vertebrates, but going as far as to classify them in the same phylum as Vertebrates is grossly innaccurate. I hope my post was constructive. The Winged Yoshi
Though I understand that relying solely on Benton's classification has the advantage of relying on a single source, the change seems to be a step backward. Some of the problems include
I've had a go at getting Chordate into good shape for Wikipedia Version 0.7. I doubt whether there's time to get it up to A-class or GA, but I'd hope B-class would be easy enough. Please comment.
Then we can consider the V 0.7 offer of free copyediting. -- Philcha ( talk) 13:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I thought that the most dominant view was that it was a mollusc or a near mollusc protostome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.191.48 ( talk) 20:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Can anyone verify claims that bilateral larvae of echinoderms (e.g., Bipinnaria) are a link between them and hemichordates/chordates? I'd like to see that point presented in counterpoint to the symmetry argument in the second paragraph of the "closest non-chordate relatives" section. The reason I say this is because I thought that radial symmetry in echinoderms was a well-known example of secondary adaptation. Mikelsmith ( talk) 20:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I've undone your recent adjustments to the images at Chordate, as they made a complete mess of the layout on a widescreen monitor (these are becoming increasingly common, and this makes image lauout more difficult). MOS does not forbid sizing of image. If you have other suggestions about image sizes, please discuss them at Talk:Chordate. -- Philcha ( talk) 10:25, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
These might be useful: -- Philcha ( talk) 20:38, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
This definition is really confusing to me, a layman:
Chordates form a phylum - a grouping of animals with a shared bodyplan[1] - defined by having at some stage in their lives all of the following:[2]
- a notochord, in other words a fairly stiff rod of cartilage that extends along the inside of the body and helps the animal to swim by flexing its tail.
- a dorsal neural tube, which develops into the spinal cord, the main commmunications trunk of the nervous system, in fish and other vertebrates
- pharyngeal slits. The pharynx is the part of the throat immediately behind the mouth. In fish the slits are modified to form gills, but in other chordates they are part of a filter feeding system that extracts particles of food from the water in which the animals live.
- a muscular tail that extends backwards behind the anus.
- an endostyle. This groove in the ventral wall of the pharynx produces mucus to gather food particles, helps in transporting food to the esophagus,[3] and stores iodine. It may be a precursor of the vertebrate thyroid gland.[2]
It seems to be saying that at some stage in their lives all chordates swim, have tails, and have either gills or a filter feeding system. If this is true, it's amazing and cool (maybe mammals have all these properties in utero or something?) and needs to be explained to dummies like me for this to be a useful definition.
My suspicion is that what it really means to say is that at some stage of their development (not 'at some stage of their life,' which implies time out of the uterus to many of us), all chordates have notochords, dorsal nerve tubes, pharyngeal slits, etc., and then it means to give examples of some of the things these structures develop into in various chordates. I think the definition needs to make clearer what's definition and what's example.
For example, I'm not sure what happens to the pharyngeal slits of mammals, but I'm pretty sure they're not for filter feeding or gills, so the description is just confusing. Same thing with notochords. I'm sure bats have them at some point in their development, and I'm equally sure they don't help bats swim at any stage of bat development, so saying 'all chordates have notochords, which helps the animal swim' sounds inconsistent with the basic fact that mammals are chordates. -- 146.115.123.180 ( talk) 02:24, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
I've removed tail as a requirement for now, as it seems we don't have one unless you count the umbilical cord as a tail. Or perhaps that very last bone in the spine. But if it is reverted, I don't plan on changing it back. I couldn't even find all the instances yet. ArchabacteriaNematoda ( talk) 17:42, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps some Embryology images would be interesting here; perhaps in synthesis with DNA, Evolutionary, and Palaeontological context images and discussion. There is something retro about a Taxia classification model which focuses so much (despite reference links) on the currently extant organisms. Clearly Molecular Phylogenetics including the work of Charles Sibley for Aves will ultimately drive the future of classification as it is synthesized with the imperatives apparently requiring a more nuanced understanding of the field. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EvoDNA ( talk • contribs) 16:20, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Protochordate redirects here, but is not mentioned. Any chance of a definition? Jeff Knaggs ( talk) 10:19, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
This article includes a rather poor selection of images. All of them are of sea creatures; most of them don't show their significance like the first one (the one in the infobox) does. Tezkag72 ( talk) 18:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
All deuterostomes and hence all chordates are wholly aquatic, except some vertebrates. - Philcha ( talk) 19:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I've removed some images from the article, because I didn't think there was enough text to give the images room. I decided to remove two of the images under the "Closely Related Classes" heading, because these the images are not of actual Chordates. I also removed the Salp image, because there was already a picture representing the Tunicates. If at some point these sub-headings are expanded, it might be good to place them back.
ManfromButtonwillow ( talk) 00:46, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
What is with the Falcon Image in the main article? It has no reference in the text? Calixte Calixte 17:38, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Why is this section included in this article? I believe it violates Wikipedia guidelines; information on something that isn't included under the title shouldn't be in the article.-- FUNKAMATIC ~talk 18:17, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
I've updated the text to reflect the recent evidence for tunicates and not cephalochordates. This is based on both embryological and whole genome analysis. Some of the most important authorities on urochordate and cephalochordate biology are authors on these findings (Peter Holland, Nori Satoh). In the recent amphioxus genome paper, they write:
"To address the controversial phylogenetic position of amphioxus, we analysed a much larger set of 1,090 orthologous genes (see Supplementary Note 5). Both bayesian and maximum likelihood methods support the new chordate phylogeny38, 39, 40 in which cephalochordates represent the most basal extant chordate lineage, with tunicates (represented by both Ciona intestinalis and Oikopleura dioica in our analysis) sister to vertebrates but with long branches that indicate higher levels of amino acid substitution (Fig. 1)."
As the morphology suggests, tunicates are more derived than cephalocordates. However, what this shows is that the cephalochordate lineage split off before the divergence of vertebrates from tunicates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.173.248 ( talk) 22:10, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
I seem to be having trouble with the links to the references themselves... could anybody help me out? They are:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18563158
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16495997 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.173.248 ( talk) 22:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
ang panget ni oya phylum
matabang mataba sya — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.194.250.183 ( talk) 09:48, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
In the section "Overview of affinities" the frist paragraph was about tetrapods. This seems to me entirely inappropriate. There are these seven major clades-- Craniata Vertebrata Gnathostomata Teleostomi Euteleostomi Sarcopterygii Dipnotetrapodomorpha [1]--between Chordata and Tetrapoda. This makes it clear that discussing internal tetrapod affinities is a non sequitur to chordate affinities. It does not belong in this article about Chordates.
References
This page is currently fairly confusing to a non-expert, because in the introduction it clearly splits the phylum into three subphyla, one of which is Vertebrata, but then later down the page when it goes into more detail, suddenly we're talking about Craniata instead.
Judging from what is said on the Vertebrata and Craniata pages, it looks like Vertebrata is currently the more-supported division, but I don't know enough about this field to know whether that's actually the case. Either way, this page would be much more useful to someone learning about the subject if it chose one consistent way of splitting up the phylum and stuck with it. Even better would be to explain the state of the research on the topic. Sholtar]] | [[User_talk:Sholtar|talk ( talk) 23:21, 19 February 2015 (UTC)