From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why was this merged now?

@ Cards84664, Epicgenius, DanTD, and LRG5784: We were waiting to see what the official name for the complex is before moving it. Is this the official name for the complex?-- Kew Gardens 613 ( talk) 19:40, 16 October 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Kew Gardens 613, Cards84664, DanTD, and LRG5784: I don't think there is any official name yet. Furthermore, we should have waited until the 2018 ridership statistics come out before we merge the article. Otherwise it would look weird when the Cortlandt Street ridership and rankings are excluded from the infobox. epicgenius ( talk) 20:33, 16 October 2018 (UTC) reply
I didn’t know about the proposal page. I started merging before the ip made the request at WP:NYCPT. I thought we were 10 months late to merge. Cards84664 (talk) 20:55, 16 October 2018 (UTC) reply
If they somehow end up being listed separately we simply change it back. That’s what we are good at. Cards84664 (talk) 21:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC) reply
Well, we technically didn't need to merge the articles. The IP user said Shouldn't the two articles be merged now that the two stations are internally connected. But there were reasons for not merging: the article title would have been too unwieldy and the ridership stats didn't line up. I expect this will be worse for some future connections such as 42nd Street–Bryant Park/Fifth Avenue (New York City Subway) and Times Square (IRT 42nd Street Shuttle). epicgenius ( talk) 22:03, 16 October 2018 (UTC) reply
Ok, I know the stats don't line up as of right now, but if and when they do the length of an article title isn't an issue (take this as an example). We could always do a 180 and go with WP:USSTATION, Times Square station complex sounds much nicer than Times Square/42nd Street/Port Authority Bus Terminal/Bryant Park/Fifth Avenue (New York City Subway).
In addition, if this stands and the MTA doesn't give this a name, would anyone have a problem with Chambers Street station complex (New York City Subway)? Cards84664 (talk) 22:57, 16 October 2018 (UTC) reply
@ Cards84664: Or... we can just keep the articles separate. Regardless of what the USSTATION names for this wikiproject turn out to be, I'm not sure that you need to combine all the information in the same station complex in one article, especially if the complex consists of two adjacent stations on the same line (I'm talking about Fifth Avenue and Times Square on the Flushing Line). Using a "connections" parameter in the infobox is just fine, and this was done in the previous version of this article. I assume it's not going to be a dealbreaker or anything if we had two connected stations with different articles. If we add too much information into the same article, we'd confuse readers, which is what we are trying not to do. (For instance, although you can technically connect from Park Place and Cortlandt Street in this station, it's very indirect, and the easiest access is between Chambers/WTC and Cortlandt Street.) epicgenius ( talk) 23:52, 17 October 2018 (UTC) reply
What's your justification for putting 3 stations in one article and putting the Broadway line station by itself? If we want to be consistent with "connections", Times Square (along with this complex) would and should all be split up. This is another all or none situation on the basis of consistency. (Yes I know my point is moot if the MTA says Cortlandt St is separate, but I really doubt it). Cards84664 (talk) 00:05, 18 October 2018 (UTC) reply
My justification is that it's not an all-or-none situation. Exceptions can be discussed on a case-by-case basis, and the articles don't all have to be consistent with connections. In this case, the Clark Street Tunnel is really only connected to the Eighth Avenue Line, but not to the Broadway Line. Likewise, the Broadway Line is only connected to the Eighth Avenue local platform. This is not even the worst-case scenario. At least the merging of the Chambers/WTC/Park Place and Cortlandt Street articles is OK because at least two consecutive stations on the same line aren't being connected with a free transfer (Chambers and WTC are parallel so it's all right).
With merging the Times Square and Bryant Park articles, because your proposal would have two consecutive stations on the Flushing Line with the same article. That would totally mess up the flow of the articles. There isn't any downside to having two articles about related topics if it helps clarify things. On the other hand, one article on two consecutive stations that aren't directly connected to each other will cause a lot of confusion and would be impossible to describe clearly. There is a "transfers" parameter in the infobox for a reason, and we should use it whenever it's relevant. epicgenius ( talk) 00:36, 18 October 2018 (UTC) reply
I personally have no objections to the article name but I would have waited a little. Not even this list by the MTA includes the Cortlandt Street stop on the R with the rest of the complex (see complex ID number 624). — LRG5784 ( talk · contribs · email) 12:00, 18 October 2018 (UTC) reply

Split proposal

@ Cards84664, Epicgenius, and DanTD: The Cortlandt street platform should be split into its own article. However, I notice that a lot of the info in this page is about the BMT Broadway Line station. While the station is indeed connected to the World Trade Center-Chambers Street/Park Place complex within fare control, it's often described separately from the rest of the complex regardless of the ridership. Just like splitted the 42nd Street–Port Authority Bus Terminal station from Times Square–42nd Street station. What you guys think? Sunrise In Brooklyn ✉ 20:04, 20 January 2024 (UTC) reply

I still think the article could probably be split, although less strongly than six years ago. We split the PABT and Times Square articles because they were getting too large and because sources referred to them separately, rather than as a cohesive complex. However, this complex is a little different in that WTC is often referred to in conjunction with either Chambers Street/Park Place or Cortlandt Street, but rarely both. In other words, the complex is often referred to as either "Chambers Street-WTC-Park Place" or "Cortlandt Street-WTC", but very few sources refer to all four stations with a single name. – Epicgenius ( talk) 23:04, 20 January 2024 (UTC) reply
@ Epicgenius Also the 42nd Street–Bryant Park/Fifth Avenue station with the passageway which it was build in 2021 connect with 6th avenue platform to the 42nd Street Shuttle platform. Sunrise In Brooklyn ✉ 21:57, 22 January 2024 (UTC) reply
Yep, but the shuttle platform is almost never described as part of the 42nd Street/Bryant Park/Fifth Avenue complex in sources, and even by the MTA itself. That passageway pretty much exists solely to connect the shuttle with the 6th Avenue Line; the shuttle platform is almost exclusively considered part of the Times Square–42nd Street station. – Epicgenius ( talk) 22:16, 22 January 2024 (UTC) reply
Yup. I see this as different from Times Square. I don't see any need to split the article at this point. Kew Gardens 613 ( talk) 01:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC) reply
Having just read this article, I think it could use split _or_ a restructure. For instance, it's very confusing that there's a History section, and under _that_ a BMT section, and way down further on the page, there's a separate BMT section for the track layout, which mentions a rebuild; however the upper BMT section does not have the word "rebuild" anywhere in it, so it requires a lot of time to understand what that section is talking about. Tduk ( talk) 16:46, 10 February 2024 (UTC) reply
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Chambers_Street–World_Trade_Center/Park_Place/Cortlandt_Street_station&oldid=1205868659"