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here I can read that Mound-Building didn't start before 1050. But in the own Article about the Monk Mound I read, that it was constructed between 900 and 950. So one of these two facts must be wrong and should be corrected. Please forgive me my bad english. -- Hartmann Schedel Prost 10:51, 16 August 2010 (UTC). Article is also inconsistent. It claims population peeked at 40,000 in 13th century, but later states that population began to fall in 12th century and was abandoned in 13th century.
Is this a joke? These people were wiped out by other Indians. Why is the article referencing climate data? Climate in the past 2k years had nothing to do with migration patterns of Indians. These were warring tribes. No mention that this may have been the northern extent of the southern press? Ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.67.134 ( talk) 04:12, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
The coordinates on the Cahokia Wikipedia page are incorrect. The correct coordinates are: 38°39'14.18"N 90° 3'52.38"W. I'd edit the page my self but I'm not sure where these values go. Best, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.31.165 ( talk) 20:15, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
In section Monks Mound, the text " It also contains about 814,000 yd of earth"; is that assumed cubic yards? In section Urban landscape the area of the Grand Plaza is listed as either 19 ha or 40 acres (16 ha). Any clarity? Bleakcomb ( talk) 01:39, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
The original date style for this article is BC/AD establish on user: Parkwells at 14:53, June 24, 2008. The arbitrary edit in violation of WP:ERA was made by David Trochos at 12:48, August 6, 2008. Therefore, proper date style for this article is BC/AD, unless someone can provide a reason that is not based on preference, and a consensus can be reached on this talk page. Similar issues have already been discussed and resolved through the dispute resolution process [ [1]] Primus128 ( talk) 04:22, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
WP:EFA originally gave preference to the original style. That was changed and it no longer says that, so it's pretty clear that that is not a sufficient reason to revert an articl that hs been stable for four years back to that style. It's up to Primus to justify any change. Dougweller ( talk) 06:40, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
Noting that WP:ERA as revised mentions nothing about the original version but says "Do not change the established era style in an article unless there are reasons specific to its content.". Dougweller ( talk) 05:18, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Some dude changed one of my edits, reverting "United States" to "North America" stating that "[t]his was when there were no United States, not even as a dream." We oftentimes use modern place-names when describing historical events and cultures. (The first New World settlers set foot in Alaska, not northwestern North America). This reasoning makes no sense to me. By that reasoning, we should not use the word "Clovis" to describe the prehistoric Indian culture. We should also not describe important Clovis sites as being in Pennsylvania and South Carolina, but rather "eastern North America."
North America is a European name and construct. (Native Americans didn't cut the Western Hemisphere in half south of Panama). Central North America is in North Dakota which is not where the Mississippians lived. Eastern North America is the east coast of Panama to the east coast of Labrador or Greenland.
I will change the geographical location of this culture back to "the central and eastern United States" unless I'm missing something important here. If we continue to mention "North America," then please also tell me how we should rewrite the Squamish, Sacree, and Apache articles to either add redundant geographical place-names or possibly make them more geographically ambiguous. -- AntigrandiosË Talk 21:02, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Maybe I was just a little P.O.-ed, but the whole thing seems contradictory to me.
...which developed advanced societies in central and eastern North America (within the present-day United States)
Central North America is not the central United States, and it's not where these people were. The Mississipian sites are in the eastern United States, which in only a small sliver of eastern North America. It's geographically misleading and nonspecific. I can't find a similar example in any other articles about Native Americans/First Nations, either ancient or modern. -- AntigrandiosË Talk 22:04, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
There are 21 whs sites in the u.s., but only 5 if them are cultural (plus one mixed). The site in the original source confirms this. I don't know why people keep undoing the revision. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.248.3.235 ( talk) 20:50, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
Is there a reason this image is flipped on the horizontal axis? You'll see that the cars are driving on the wrong side of the road for the US, and other photos found online show the arch to the right in the St. Louis skyline. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.62.110.84 ( talk) 23:17, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
As this discussion relates to more than this article, it has been moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America#Discussion about possible eurocentric and colonialist mentality in indigenous peoples of North America articles to attract wider participation |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Time and Time again I come across an Indigenous American related article (and similar articles) only to find articles that are extremely skewed toward European world views and completely ignoring Indigenous world views. This is NOT making articles with NEUTRAL Points of View! When an Indigenous person chimes in to point out the euro-western lens that the article is presented in, nothing is done or the point is discredited, usually followed by citing a book written by.... you guessed it a european, completing the circle of the euro-western lens. This has been my and my colleagues' experience anyway. There are plenty of Indigenous Nations and Indigenous organizations to contact as well as books and documentaries made by Indigenous people. It is NOT necessary to exclusively site non-Indigenous texts, web sites, etc.. This article's perpetuation of "human sacrifice" among Indigenous cultures is extremely defamatory and dangerous to today's Indigenous people. This also goes for the linked article "Mound 72". Wikipedia has become a household name and people take it very seriously whether they should or not. They believe what they read here for the most part and the beliefs they get from this site extends to the racism towards Indigenous peoples and it contributes to the defamation towards Indigenous peoples. I am an Anishinaabe and Tsalagi Indigenous person, I have been a member of a very well known Indigenous rights organization for well over two decades. I know many Traditional people and no where ever at any time have I EVER heard of any of us in north OR south america practicing human sacrifice or ritual torture. I have however heard this from genocidal european colonists who were trying to give a reason or excuse for the holocaust they were/are inflicting upon our people but never NEVER have I heard of such things in our Traditional stories and knowledge, which by the way not only includes oral tradition but our own forms of writing, book making and record keeping. You can believe Indigenous people or the people that committed the largest holocaust ever and killed 98 percent of North and South Indigenous Americans. Since you supposedly have a policy of keeping a "Neutral POV" you should at the very least let us have our say. Myself and others have tried to contribute, following your rules and everything but still our contributions are deleted or edited beyond recognition by overzealous editors. Wiki is an Indigenous word, it is Hawaiin - how ironic that you insist on casting us in untrue and defamatory ways. Please just try to think about this with an open mind and heart. I am not interested in back-and-forthing with anyone, just remember We Indigenous People Are Still Here and we read and sometimes contribute to Wiki. Chi Miigwech and thank you. Zoongitozi ( talk) 06:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Please try to hear me with an open mind at least. By continuing to occupy the lands of Indigenous people and continuing the cultural genocidal activities and the literal genocidal activities that colonists have been doing for the past 500 years or so is continuing the holocaust. Just because you may not have literally murdered an Indigenous person does not mean you are not participating in the continual colonization and holocaust in the americas (or any other colonized place a colonist may be occupying). You have a eurocentric view and a colonist view. You were born into it and what happened in the past is not your fault but what you do NOW is. My main point is that most Indigenous american articles on Wiki are not of a NEUTRAL point of view. TRY to open your mind and heart and make an attempt at least to understand the Indigenous point of view. We are still here, not all of us are gone and that means that there are full blooded traditionalists you could talk to, to try to understand a particular culture and their are many many books written by Indigenous people. I know Wiki requires very particular types of sources to support any information and that makes it even harder for Indigenous people to have a fair say in Wiki articles since it seems that non-Native sources from people with non-Native education and culture are preferred. I would not even care but it is a problem because Wikipedia is a household word now, nearly everyone reads it and it's one of the first things to come up in a search engine. So what is said here, especially about people is very very important. I mostly replied to this hoping someone else with an open mind may come across this and try to understand us through OUR words, not the words of the colonists or anyone else other than the people you are trying to understand. Watch some talks by John Trudell, that is a very good starting point in understanding the Indigenous point of view. Chi Miigwech and thank you for hearing me out with an open mind and heart. Zoongitozi ( talk) 06:00, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Zoongitozi, you said to try "to understand [you] through [YOUR] words", I think the best way for that would be to write a Wikipedia in your language(s) and your words, not in English which is the colonialist language after all and its (forced) use by the Indigenous people is an important part of why the Native cultures are still regressing today (which is indeed considered as a cultural genocide by many), if you need help in creating a Wikipedia project in any Indigenous languages please contact me and I can assist with that. I'm not saying the English (and other main languages) Wikipedia shouldn't be neutral and that you should stop to try to bring the Native side of things on it, I'm just saying having a Wikipedia in your own language(s) is also a very important thing in my opinion. Thanks, merci, gracias, we'lalin, meegwich, Amqui ( talk) 19:04, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
American Indigenous language Wikipedias
Languages of the First Nations of CanadaIndigenous languages of Latin AmericaNative American languages of the US in Wikimedia IncubatorThe human sacrifice at Cahokia is very documented. Osage and Pawnee people have historical ceremonies that involved human sacrifice (the Morning and the Morning Star Ceremonies, respectively). The way to combat Eurocentric bias in Wikipedia is to actively encourage more Native people to participate and to use more sources written and published by Indigenous peoples. Indian Country Today is a fantastic online resources. More and more tribal newspapers are up online, such as the Osage News, there's a growing number of tribal publishing companies, and there's a wealth of books published by Native peoples. As Gloria Bird suggests in Reinventing the Enemy's Language, that forcing all Native American tribes to speak English might have given us a powerful tool for communicating with each other. - Uyvsdi ( talk) 20:14, 20 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
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Just looking at source for London, 100,000 looks pretty clearly wrong. Gwyn Williams says [2] "It seems reasonable to suggest, therefore, that London's population increased from some 20,000 in 1200 to some 40,000 in 1340. If anything, these guesses err on the side of conservatism." This CUP book] [3] "By the year 1200 the city of Paris was home to 110,000 residents, and London to 20,000-25,000." Dougweller ( talk) 17:05, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Would any editors of this article care to check this out and weigh in? See here. 184.190.215.159 ( talk) 19:30, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Articles on ancient and since-abandoned cities typically have pictures of not just ruins, but mock-ups of what they looked like while inhabited and flourishing. We need an image of what Cahokia would have looked like during it's heyday. I haven't found any such images on Wikipedia or in the Commons just yet, if anybody can find it, or can upload such an image, please do so.-- RM ( Be my friend) 21:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Probably a reference to this one a half-mile from Stonehenge: [4]. Rmhermen ( talk) 08:03, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Or possibly the hypothesis that the Aubrey Holes were post-holes. WhaleyTim ( talk) 10:16, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
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I've just removed a sentence saying it might have been a capital from Mound Builders#Mississippian culture as it needs development here first. See for instance [7] [8] [9] [10] Doug Weller talk 19:39, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
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The article at https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/hot-planet/lost-cities-and-climate-change/ connects the dissipation of Cahokia as directly related to climate change in the early 1300's: "In the middle of the fourteenth century, the climate swung back toward drought. This shift was likely associated with shifting temperature patterns in the ocean that affected the jet stream, pulling cool air down from the Arctic and displacing rainfall patterns. These changes are attributable to some combination of natural internal climate variability and externally forced changes from solar activity and increased volcanic eruptions. Their effects were profound. In Europe around the same time, a confluence of natural factors perhaps related and perhaps separate from the forces drying out the Mississippi Valley caused it to rain heavily in the summer of 1314..."
It seems not a little bit biased (and hence against Wikipedia's policy of NPOV) that there is no discussion of at least the possibility that Cahokia was a state society. This is clearly debatable, but given that the article itself points out it may have surpassed London for a time in population, and that we never refer to Medieval England as a "chiefdom," this does seem suspicious. Now, you might say the English left written records and the Mississippians didn't, and that's true. But the Andeans (unless you could the Quipu), the Ancient Hawaiians, and many Precolonial states in Central and Southern Africa also lacked writing, so this does seem a good enough excuse. And don't forget that the descendents of the people who built Cahokia are still alive, and they have their own history, regardless if it is traditionally an oral one instead of written.
I know original research is a big no-no here, so I'll provide some potential sources:
https://www.santafe.edu/news-center/news/cahokia-small-state-jumbo-chiefdom
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56269264-the-dawn-of-everything (*The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity*).
I don't know of any public indigenous sources or transcribed oral traditions, let alone ones translated into English and available online, but it would be great if somebody with ready access to a university library or archive could provide us all some resources from those points of view.
Jamutaq ( talk) 02:04, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
See [12] Doug Weller talk 18:42, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Tidbit: James Kennedy's SF "Dare To Know" relates the mass sacrifice to the 1054 supernova. 2.206.238.199 ( talk) 08:54, 3 May 2023 (UTC)