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{{ mergefrom|Brig}}
kkkk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.213.75 ( talk) 12:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
"Brig" and "brigantine" are not synonymous - for instance Chapelle's History of the American Sailing Navy, p. 392 makes reference to the Porpoise being built as a brigantine and later being re-rigged as a brig! The basic difference is in the use of fore-and-aft sail on the mainmast, but I'm still looking for a definitive authority to quote (good excuse for a short article also covering snows, bilanders, etc). Stan Shebs 04:55 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)
Well gee, now there's nothing left for me to do! (except to cut up the monster at rigging...) Stan Shebs 16:58 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)
Heh-heh. I must "turn my head and look away" or won't get any work done today... Stan Shebs 18:41 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)
The Oxford English Dictionary says brig and brigantine are different, from the definition of brig:
Ortolan88 17:45 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)
It seems that the terms brig and brigantine may have been synonyms at times, and not at others. The article doesn't really reflect this currently. Andrewa 10:01, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
But it does now. I've also replaced the redirect at brigantine by a stub. Both I think now accurately represent the way the two terms have had several partly incompatible uses. Both articles could still use more work. Andrewa 02:42, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For what it is worth, I own A General History of The Pyrates by Daniel Defoe, and in its preface is an article from Marine Dictionary, Improved and Enlarged by Dr William Burney (1815) about the definitions of old sea-craft. And the old se-craft of that time used the Brig or Brigantine as synonomous terms. Since then it appears they have changed, but please make note that before that time they were the same thing. Write me for any further info: ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr. Lee Snavely ( talk • contribs) 02:55, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Having a picture is good. But I sent the person who recently added one a question, because it looks like a schooner to me. Geo Swan 18:22, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There has always been a huge amount of debate about where a two-masted schooner ends and a brig begins. After restoring, maintaining, and sailing aboard each of these types of vessels, many discussions with fellow tall-ship sailors of all persuasions, and researching as much as possible, I have determined that the progression is:
Two-Masted Schooner: Two masts, both masts setting a sail attached to the mast at the luff. All sails fore-and-aft. Sails may be gaff or marconi.
Stays'l Schooner: as above, but with no sail set with luff attached to foremast. One or more 'tween-mast stays'ls. Note: Modern Stays'l Schooners may sometimes set fore-and-aft tops'ls with luffs attached to the mast; this is outside the classical definitions.
Square-Tops'l Schooner: As Two-Masted Schooner, but with square topsail(s) on the foremast. A course may be set on the fore.
Main-Tops'l Schooner: As above, but with square tops'l(s) on main mast as well. No course is ever set on the main, but may (rarely) be set on the fore. The schooner Sultana is an example of this rare rig.
Brig(English): Two-masted. Square top'sl's and courses on both masts. No sparred fore-and-aft sail set on the foremast. Stays'ls set 'tween masts. Main course typically referred to as the "mains'l", while the sparred fore-and-aft sail set aft of the mainmast is typically called the "spanker" or "driver". The Stavros S Niarchos is an example, although rarely pictured with the maincourse set.
Brigantine(American)/Hermaphrodite Brigantine(English): As the Stays'l Schooner, with addition of square tops'ls and course on foremast. The Exy Johnson and Irving Johnson are the best examples that come to mind.
Brig(American)/Hermaphrodite Brig(English): As the Brig(English), but with no course set on the mainmast. The sparred fore-and-aft sail set aft of the mainmast is typically referred to as the "mains'l". The Lady Washington is a good example of this rig.
Snow: As the Brig(English), with the sparred fore-and-aft sail aft of the mainmast set at the luff not to the mainmast itself, but to a small "tys'l mast" stepped immediately aft of the mainmast.
The major stumbling block is the difference between New World and Old World definitions. Also, there is the somewhat archaic convention of using terms like "Brig" or "Sloop" to denote classes of vessels based on tonnage or usage, not just rig types. Also, and very rarely, one sees a picture of a Main-Tops'l Schooner setting a full stack on the main, or even worse, a Brig(British) setting a gaff fores'l (like the reproduction Pilgrim). In these strange cases, the distinction is made by carefully scrutinizing the overall sail and rig proportions; a schooner derives her primary drive from fore-and-aft sails (the squares being auxillary sails), whereas the brig derives her primary drive from her tops'ls (the fore-and-aft sails being secondary). Osteoderm 03:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I've added a third use of "brigantine:" as an alternate spelling for brigandine, a piece of armor. Perhaps there should be a disambiguation page for this word. Durova 04:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I am happy to see the difference between a Brig and Brigantine spelled out, although I wouldn't even know what was different was looking at the actual vessels unless it was pointed out to me by someone with more experience. The problem I have with maintaining Brig separately as a stub is that unless the article Brig is significant on it's own, it should be combined together with Brigantine and have the differences explained which is basically what is already being done now. Brig is an archaic reference to a similar type of ship and can refer back to Brigantine in order to clarify the differences between both.
The fact that Brig and Brigantine are not synonymous does not justify a separate page for Brig if it is only a stub. Unless there is significant content that clearly delineates one type of ship by another, not just a slight modification of the masts and ship construction, then the articles belong together, not separate.
In reviewing the other ship links, it would be likely that Hermaphrodite brig should also be combined here for the same reasons.
I thereby propose that Brig and Brigantine be combined. Gohiking 19:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
As I was working in the Wikipedia:Most wanted stubs page and Brig was listed as number 2, I managed to move the article from stub class to B Class as per the judgement of someone from the Military history WikiProject. I would argue that there is now sufficent material in the brig article to merit it not being merged.-- Wowaconia 22:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The article says:
By the first half of the 18th century the word had evolved to refer not to a ship type name, but rather to a particular type of rigging: square rigged on the foremast and fore-and-aft rigged on the mizzen. Many sloops were "brigantine-rigged".
(italics added)
A sloop can't possibly have a different rigging on the foremast from the mizzen, it doesn't have either. I have therefore deleted the italicized text.-- Doug.( talk • contribs) 04:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Just a note: The word sloop does not necessarily mean any single-masted for-and-aft-rigged vessel with at least one headsail and the mast relatively far forward. It has also been used to refer to weight or armament classes. I believe one definition was a ship-rigged warship of fewer than 20 guns, but I am sure that there have been others. The author of the article clearly meant main when he wrote mizzen.
I think that without the deleted text it is unclear what is meant by "ship type name" as opposed to "type of rigging." Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I have could elaborate on exactly how the meaning of the word changed. In any case the text could be changed to clarify that the author meant "general type and size of vessel" by "ship type." I would add that it is misleading to use the term ship for vessels in general when discussing types of rig, as in this context ship means a vessel having three square-rigged masts each comprising distinct lower, top, and topgallant sections, and that the word rig should be used for type of sail plan as a whole rather than rigging, which refers specifically to the lines used to support and control the rig.
Gjh88 (
talk) 09:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
It seems we have a picture of a Hermaphrodite Brig on the Brigantine Page, and a picture of a Brigantine on the Hermaphrodite Brig Page. Is there some reason for this? IgniFerroque ( talk) 04:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
source 1 is no longer a working link.... prob should be deleted and new sources found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.167.127 ( talk) 22:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Stone Roses '....and fills up her brigantine sails...' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.126.31 ( talk) 21:47, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
The following is a usefull diagram to show the different two masted vessels rigging plans, in relation to their classicifaction.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ship_Rigging_differences_in_schematic_view.png — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Refundpolitics (
talk •
contribs) 14:16, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
I've been back and forth over both articles several times now, and I honestly don't see any difference between this:
/info/en/?search=Brig#/media/File:Brig3.png
And this: /info/en/?search=Brigantine#/media/File:Brigantine.png
Is the difference that the brig has a square mainsail, and the fore-and-aft sail is merely an auxiliary, while the brig has a dedicated fore-and-aft mainsail? The only obvious differences in the images are that the brig has a furled square sail on the main yards, and that the brigatine has a mainstaysail set between the masts, which ought to be perfectly possible for the brig as well. If that's really the main difference between the two, it ought to say so in plain language, because it took me a while to come to that conclusion the way the articles are phrased. I mean, the difference between the two is one sail...that seems like a relevant piece of information that could be highlighted instead of just saying "not to be confused with a brigatine, which is rigged differently". Obviously, the difference is more obvious in the "hermaphrodite" brig, with the full fore-and-aft mainsail. .45Colt 09:08, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
It is true that there was confusion on the subject and that this confusion may still be around in some other articles. Yet, the difference between a Brig and Brigantine is not contested in naval literature. However, once people start using general dictionaries to figure out the differences, things get messy. This is seems to be because of two things: first, dictionaries cut corners in there descriptions, leaving out 'non essential' parts of a description to minimize text length and second, most people don't realize that if you quote a dictionary from well before the advent of gaff topsails, there was little need to mention that the topsails were square (because all topsail were, invariably, square). In addition to the differences as described in the article, brigantines have what is sometimes referred to as a 'schooner mainmast': a mast with only a topmast extension. A brig's main mast had three sections: mast, topmast and topgallant mast. In addition to this difference, as correctly mentioned in the article, the main sail of a brigantine is the fore-and-aft gaff sail (on the main mast), the mainsail of a brig is, however, square. The gaff sail on a brig (named spanker or, less common, a driver) is used in aiding the steering of the ship. Sources: many. However, many online sources are, by now, confused. Many quoted the confused information on Wikipedia and it seems the information online has taken on a life of its own. Fortunately, we still have sources (offline):
82.173.88.91 ( talk) 17:02, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
I am not an expert, merely an enthusiast. The image captioned "A brigantine sail plan" appears to me to have both a square rigged sail on the mainsail yard, and a fore-and-aft sail abaft the main mast with no gaff or boom visible. I thought a brigantine had no square-rigged mainsail, and a fore-and-aft sail on a gaff or boom on the main mast? Just as a sanity check, is this image correct?
"the Oxford English Dictionary has about 1525 definitions of..."
I don't know what this sentence was meant to say but, even without opening my OED, I'm willing to bet that it does *not* contain 1500 definitions of "brigantine." ;)
Can the author, or someone else who understands it, please clean up this sentence?