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This article was reviewed by The Guardian on October 24, 2005. (Link to review) Comments: It was rated 8/10. For more information about external reviews of Wikipedia articles and about this review in particular, see this page. This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 2 times. The weeks in which this happened: October 9 to 15, 2016 (5th) October 16 to 22, 2016 (17th)

Nice article about a very, very loyal long-term fan in (former Eastern) Germany: https://www.spiegel.de/geschichte/bob-dylan-in-oel-wie-das-gemaelde-aufs-konzert-in-ost-berlin-kam-a-52cdc5fa-eef8-4e9f-bced-379d61a1075a

I'm interested in developing a page on the The Brazil Series of paintings. I think there is a lot of information worth knowing about but that adding anything more to this page is pointless. Does this seem like an appropriate topic for its own page? Contemparteditor ( talk) 19:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Charlie Faust, you have been re-writing the Bob Dylan article in a very thorough and ambitious way. You have tightened up a lot of the prose and improved many things. My concern is that you are adding more & more & more material to an article that has been repeatedly criticised as being over-long. In a creative life as long as Dylan’s, with such a plethora of biographical & critical information available, there is no limit to what we could add. We need restraint. I’ve deleted a few of your additions. Yesterday you asked: How did Dylan meet Ginsberg and should this be added? Historian Sean Wilentz has written a detailed account of Dylan’s first meeting with Ginsberg on December 26, 1963, in his book Bob Dylan In America (pages 65-69), because it happened in the apartment of his uncle, Ted Wilentz, above the 8th Street Bookshop which was co-owned by Wilentz’s father and uncle. I DON’T think we should add this. Dylan’s relationship with Ginsberg is described in several places in this article. Best, Mick gold ( talk) 16:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Well, thank you for the feedback. I'm glad you kept Larkin's review of Highway 61 Revisited, anyway.

Wasn't aware that the article had been criticized as overlong; it seems fine to me, but I will not add any more material without asking if it should be added. I thought Shepard's involvement with Rolling Thunder was worth adding, as its another interaction with a literary figure.

I'm tired of the repeated references to "critical aggregator Metacritic". It's already defined as a critical aggregator, so there's no need to repeat that. The whole idea of scoring works of art, as Metacritic does, seems reductive, you know?

Thank you for your kind words, and the information on Dylan meeting Ginsberg, something I had wondered about. Charlie Faust ( talk) 19:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Did add quote from Joni Mitchell: “I can’t really pick just one because I like so many, but the Dylan song that really grabbed me was ‘Positively Fourth Street’ and the reason for that was the subject matter seemed at the time so unique. What it said to me, not only is this a good song, but it means that we can now sing about any kind of emotion. I don’t think there was a song before that that defined the kind of hurt expressed in that song. It widened the scope of possibilities for songwriters.” I think that's kosher, as it compliments quotes in section from Tom Waits, Chuck D., et. al.

About awards: Dylan's Grammy for Album of the Year, which he won for Time Out of Mind, is quite reasonably mentioned under subheading 1990s, specifically in the paragraph on Time Out of Mind. Other awards, such as the Presidential Medal of Freedom, are mentioned twice, in "Life and career" and "Accolades". Since that's an award for a body of work, would it make sense to reference that once, under "Accolades"? Same goes for the Kennedy Center Honor. Other awards for a body of work, such as his Pulitzer special citation, are mentioned once, under Accolades. The Nobel Prize in Literature, also for a body of work, has a subheading under Accolades.

I know there's no shortage of critical and biographical material about the Mighty Bob (as Mr. Rushdie called him), but Alex Ross's profile, " The Wanderer" (May 22, 1999, The New Yorker), is excellent. In the unlikely event that you're looking for critical material to add, this article would be worth adding. Ross outlines Dylan's musical influences, some of which have been overlooked: "His early vocal style incorporated pieces of Woody Guthrie, Mississippi John Hurt, Hank Williams, and, not to be forgotten, Johnnie Ray, the flaky fifties crooner who smacked his consonants with unnerving ferocity." Ross, the classical music critic for The New Yorker, also describes Dylan as composer, something that may be overlooked: "he is a composer and performer at once, and his shows cause his songs to mutate, so that no definitive or ideal version exists. Dylan's legacy will be the sum of thousands of performances, over many decades." And, curiously, it includes the following: "Gordon Ball, a professor of English at the Virginia Military Institute, has nominated Dylan for the Nobel Prize in Literature." Charlie Faust ( talk) 16:48, 17 February 2024 (UTC) reply

In the header, there are two links to Encyclopædia Britannica: Al Kooper, "Bob Dylan: American Musician" (retrieved November 5, 2016) and "Bob Dylan" (retrieved October 5, 2008). These link to the same page on Encyclopædia Britannica. Why count them as two references when they link to the same page? Wouldn't it make sense to merge them as one reference? Charlie Faust ( talk) 18:54, 17 February 2024 (UTC) reply

I've merged the 3 Encyclopedia Britannica references into one cite. Gordon Ball's nomination of Dylan in 1996 is mentioned in 2 cites at end of first sentence in the Nobel Prize in Literature section: [1] and [2] Mick gold ( talk) 02:12, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Hey, thanks for merging the Encyclopædia Britannica cites. Missed the Gordon Ball citation; my bad.

I'm getting tired of all the references to Metacritic. If people really want to know what the album scored on Metacritic, they can look it up. If a critic said something interesting (and there's no shortage of interesting things to say about Dylan), we should link to their review. Reading infinite variations of "the album scored an 89 on Metacritic, indicating 'universal acclaim'" is tiresome. Far better to link to individual reviews; the words of a good critic are far more illuminating than a (somewhat arbitrary) score. Charlie Faust ( talk) 02:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply

I don’t agree. I find Metacritic cites useful because they are a portal into a variety of critics’ reviews. At one click you gain access to many critical voices, some of which would otherwise be hidden behind a paywall. WP text states Masked & Anonymous “polarized critics”. Metacritic cite at one click gives you access to 28 reviews, from highly favorable to “an incomprehensible Bob Dylan vanity project”. [3] That’s the best cite imaginable for this point. I shall restore some Metacritic cites you have deleted. Mick gold ( talk) 12:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Do you think The Great White Wonder is worth mentioning? It was, arguably, the first "bootleg" album. Charlie Faust ( talk) 03:08, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply

OK, GWW mentioned. Mick gold ( talk) 14:37, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Hey, thanks. I'm not saying we should never link to Metacritic; it is useful for getting critical consensus. I'm just saying that quotes from critics can be more illuminating. For "Love and Theft" (the quotation marks are in the title), we're told "The album was critically well received and earned several Grammy nominations." Not only that, it won the Grammy Award for Best Contemporary Folk Album, and there's a link to the review in Entertainment Weekly. I'm gonna nix "received several Grammy nominations", since, rather more important, it won a Grammy.

As for awards; I think it makes sense to mention awards for individual works (the Grammy for Best Contemporary Folk Album, for "Love and Theft") in the relevant section under "Life and career". For works honoring Dylan's career (the Kennedy Center Honor, the Pulitzer special citation, the Nobel Prize in Literature) it's better to list them under "Accolades". At least that's what I think. Charlie Faust ( talk) 16:43, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply

With regards to "Hurricane", I think it might be worth noting (maybe in a footnote?) that Carter's sentence was overturned in 1985. I know, it's an article about Dylan, not Carter, but that Carter's sentence was overturned shows his crusade was a righteous one. Charlie Faust ( talk) 17:14, 19 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Charlie Faust Not a good idea to add footnotes and more info on Carter’s case imho. This article should stick to Dylan, not go down byways. Also many Dylan commentators stress Dylan’s song was a tremendous creative achievement but almost every line of his lyric is factually inaccurate and questions remain about Carter’s guilt.

Michael Gray, Bob Dylan Encyclopedia, p. 123: “Judge Sarokin only ruled that 'To permit convictions to stand which have as their foundation appeals to racial prejudice and the withholding of evidence critical to the defense is to commit a violation of the Constitution as heinous as the crimes for which the petitioners were tried and convicted.' Carter was not and never has been found ‘not guilty’. Nor has he ever sued for false imprisonment. His history of violence includes beating up a black woman who had been prominent in campaigning for his release. Many of his claims, small and large, have been discredited. Almost every line of Dylan’s song is inaccurate, from its description of events to its depiction of Carter…. None of this makes any difference to "Hurricane" as a creative achievement, any more than the facts of Pretty Boy Floyd’s life can have any power over the life of Woody Guthrie’s song. Dylan’s song has blazing vivacity, a life affirming generosity of sweep … It’s cinematic and celebratory."

Clinton Heylin, (2010), Still On The Road: The Songs of Bob Dylan, Volume Two: 1974–2008, pp. 73-9 contains a sceptical account of the Hurricane Carter case. Mick gold ( talk) 19:13, 19 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Thanks for the feedback. I was aware of liberties Dylan had taken with his song. I admit I'm not an expert on the case, but it is a fact that Carter's sentence for the homicide in Patterson was overturned. He may have been guilty of other crimes, for all I know.

Regarding Desire, the article mentions "travelogue-like narrative styles". That's true, and can be heard on songs like "Isis" and "Mozambique." Just as interesting, I think, are what sound like stage directions ("Pistol shot rang out in a barroom night.") These were also inspired, I suspect, by his new collaborator, Jacques Levy. Under "Accolades", I think that Dylan was named a Commandeur dans l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres merits mentioning. (Other members include Jorge Luis Borges, T. S. Eliot, Stevie Wonder, Clint Eastwood and Jerry Lewis. He was popular in France.)

I know that there's a wealth of material by and about Dylan and this article cannot include everything. Nor should it. Still, I think it would be worth mentioning Biograph, which, as the Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll notes, "included 18 previously unreleased tracks" and "helped put Dylan's long career in perspective." The liner notes, by Cameron Crowe, are cited on this page. I also wonder if it might be worth noting the 30th Anniversary Concert Celebration (dubbed "Bobfest" by Neil Young).

A work that gives me pause is Tarantula. It is mentioned under "Written works", along with Chronicles and The Philosophy of Modern Song. Those works are also mentioned under "Life and career". Should Tarantula be? I admit I haven't read it. It may not be important literature, but may be an important document. Or maybe it isn't. Biograph, however, is certainly important. Charlie Faust ( talk) 19:45, 19 February 2024 (UTC) reply

You know, I think you convinced me on Metacritic; it is a good place to see a number of reviews, positive and negative, at a glance. I think it's worth linking to. However, I would still caution against mentioning the Metascores too often in the article, as they are somewhat arbitrary, and because reading variations of "scored 90 on Metacritic" gets tiresome. But it is useful for getting sense of consensus (or, as with Masked & Anonymous, of seeing wildly differing reviews.)

Still think Biograph merits mention, and the Commandeur dans l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres (hope I spelled that right; I'm an amateur at French). Charlie Faust ( talk) 22:35, 19 February 2024 (UTC) reply

The article "Times change, but Dylan remains a lasting imprint", Edna Gunsersen, USA Today, is linked to several times under "Legacy." Might be worth merging these links, as they go to same article. (Still think it would be worth mentioning Biograph...) Charlie Faust ( talk) 19:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Gunderson cites have been merged. Mick gold ( talk) 15:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Charlie Faust, The principal section in the Bob Dylan article is “Life and Career”. You moved two paragraphs from “Life and Career” to “Legacy”. You argued: "On May 24, 2011, Dylan's 70th birthday, three universities organized symposia on his work"; true, but Dylan was not involved with said symposia; does it belong in "Life and career"? It might be better suited to "Legacy", where critical appreciation is discussed”. And Dylan's 80th birthday in May 2021 was commemorated by a virtual conference, Dylan@80, organized by the University of Tulsa..."; good to know, but Bob wasn't involved with the conference; does it belong under "Life and career"? It might be better suited to "Legacy", where critical discussion of his work is.”

I disagree. These paras don’t add anything substantive to Dylan’s artistic legacy. They are milestones in his life. I think they punctuate the narrative of his Life in a way that works. Dropped into “Legacy” they don’t relate to the material that comes before and after. I’ve reverted them. It would be interesting to hear other editors’ opinions about the best place for this material. Mick gold ( talk) 15:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC) reply

It might be that this kind of stuff does belong in "Legacy", but I don't think at this point that specific conferences or symposia are very significant. Perhaps they could be summed up in a sentence or two, kind of like "Dylan's work has become the subject of serious academic study, with symposia on his work being held at the University of Blah (year)(ref), Blah College... and others." Etc. I don't think each individual one deserves much mention. I agree if it was something that he himself was actively involved in, that would go more under "Life and career". Brianyoumans ( talk) 16:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC) reply

I'm not sure the symposia belong in Life and career because Bob wasn't involved with them. I'm not sure what Bob thinks of academic study of his work, honestly. I think it's better suited to Legacy; critical study of his work (Richard Thomas, Christopher Ricks, et al.) is mentioned there.

I moved the sale of Dylan's Fender Stratocaster and lyrics to "Like a Rolling Stone" from Life and career to Archives. Dylan wasn't involved with the sale of those items, which are now historical artifacts. Likewise the sale of his archives to the Tulsa University. Charlie Faust ( talk) 17:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC) reply

I think Dylan's work merits study. Christopher Ricks's Dylan's Visions of Sin is worth reading. But, again, I'm not sure what Bob himself thinks of academic study of his work; maybe he's flattered but kind of amused. Hard to say.

Re: "Dylan's 70th birthday, three universities organized symposia on his work"; Dylan's 70th birthday was a milestone in his life; no argument there, but he was not involved with said symposia. I thought it was better suited to "Legacy", where critical study of his work (by Ricks, Thomas, et al.) is mentioned. Same with "Dylan's 80th birthday in May 2021 was commemorated by a virtual conference, Dylan@80, organized by the University of Tulsa..." (I wonder why he donated his archives to the University of Tulsa, as opposed to, say, the University of Minnesota. Never mind.)

Anyone know about his being named a Commandeur dans l'Ordre des Artes et des Lettres? Per the Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll; it was in 1990, and that's what the Wikipedia page " List of members of the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres" says. The Deseret News article, " France Honors a Willin' Dylan", was from 1989. Maybe it was announced in 1989 and awarded in 1990. I'm not an expert on French cultural awards. Other members include T. S. Eliot, Stevie Wonder, Clint Eastwood and Jerry Lewis (famously popular in France.) It seems like an award worth mentioning, under "Accolades".

There is a hierarchy in France’s orders of merit and there is is no doubt the Légion d'Honneur is France’s highest order of merit, both civil and military. The List of U.S. recipients of the Légion d'Honneur includes James Baldwin, Miles Davis, Eleanor Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Clint Eastwood, Orson Welles and Elie Wiesel. It’s a big deal. Since this article mentions under "Accolades" the Légion d'Honneur (and the fact there was a political row about whether Dylan was a worthy recipient), there’s no need to mention as well the lesser Commandeur dans l'Ordre des Artes et des Lettres, imho. Mick gold ( talk) 07:35, 24 February 2024 (UTC) reply

OK, learned something new. Thank you. Charlie Faust ( talk) 00:26, 25 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Chronicles: Volume One and The Philosophy of Modern Song'political ' are mentioned in "Life and career" and "Written works"; Tarantula is mentioned only in the latter. Maybe it doesn't merit mention twice; anyone read it? Charlie Faust ( talk) 16:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC) reply

I mentioned merging links to Gundersen, " Times change, but Dylan leaves a lasting imprint". There were links to two Gundersen articles, which may have caused confusion. I was wondering if we could merge the first link to Gundersen's article ("Lines that branded Dylan a poet and counterculture valedictorian in the '60s are imprinted on the culture") with the second and third links, quotes from Bono ("U2 kind of came from outer space, where punk was ground zero and you didn't admit to having roots") and Chuck D ("He is stenciled on a lot of aspects of my career — his ability to paint pictures with words, his concerns for society"), respectively. I tried this and failed. May you'll have better luck. Charlie Faust ( talk) 20:40, 23 February 2024 (UTC) reply

I've attempted to consolidate the 3 Gundersen quotes: Bartlett, Bono and Chuck D. The Gundersen article is no longer online so the link is dead. Mick gold ( talk) 07:58, 24 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Is that the problem? I can access it here.

That works for you? When I clicked on your link just now, it took me to the Front Page of USA Today, which today informs me Trump beat Haley in SC Primary. (I'm in UK. Maybe that's the problem?) Anyway I'll add that link to Bartlett, Bono & Chuck D, see it it works for you. Mick gold ( talk) 07:13, 25 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Hmmmm, I've added that URL you quote above to Gundersen/Bartlett. Was unable to implant cite in quote so separate cites give a consolidated version of Gundersen/Bartlett cite after Bowie, Bono and Chuck D. BUT all I get from that link is Front Page of USA Today: Trump quickly bests Haley in her home state of S.C. Mick gold ( talk) 12:34, 25 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Link works for me: Times change, but Dylan leaves a lasting imprint, Edna Gundersen, USA Today. Not sure about putting cites in quotes.

I do like the sound of Bowie, Bono and Chuck D. Could be the basis for a song. Charlie Faust ( talk) 02:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Hmmmm, So it must be a USA vs UK issue. All I get right now is Front Page of USA Today: Threats, high turnover rock elections offices nationwide. I’ll leave it for now. Mick gold ( talk) 07:11, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply

(I'm in the States, as you seem to have guessed.) May be a US/UK issue. Greetings from across the pond. Charlie Faust ( talk) 18:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply

The section "Written works" mentions " Tarantula, a work of prose poetry; Chronicles: Volume One, the first part of his memoirs; several books of the lyrics of his songs, and eight books of his art. Dylan's third full length book, The Philosophy of Modern Song..."

Chronicles: Volume One and The Philosophy of Modern Song are mentioned in "Life and career." (Tarantula is not. Whether it merits mention as literature, I'll leave to those who've read it.)

Do we need a section for "Written works"? Two of the three are mentioned earlier in the article. The section seems somewhat superfluous, as Dylan is not best known for written works, and most of his written works are mentioned elsewhere.

What do you think? Charlie Faust ( talk) 17:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I think it's a useful summary of Dylan's published work and his nine art books. It's short and it points towards the Bob Dylan bibliography. Mick gold ( talk) 18:48, 10 March 2024 (UTC) reply

You may be right. What about Tarantula? It's mentioned under Written works but not Life and career. Chronicles and Philosophy of Modern Song are mentioned in life and career; should Tarantula be? (I confess I haven't read it.) Whether or not Tarantula should be mentioned twice, I'll leave to those who have read it. Charlie Faust ( talk) 03:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I've read Tarantula and have added an account of that freeform, fragmented book to 1970 section. An oddity because Dylan apparently shelved the project in 1966 and then abruptly decided to publish it at the end of 1970. It's written in a giddy, prose-poetry style but contains Dylanesque gems, some of which were incorporated into the screenplay of I'm Not There by Todd Haynes and Oren Moverman. Mick gold ( talk) 14:57, 12 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Oh, cool. I noticed a tarantula in I'm Not There, which I took to be a (rather literal) representation of the book. I like that movie. I moved it to Legacy rather than Life & career as Dylan wasn't involved with the production. The movie might come as close to summing up Dylan's legacy as a movie can.

You know what would be worth adding to the page? Milton Glaser's Dylan poster. It's in the Metropolitan Museum of Art and has been written about in the Smithsonian magazine. It's also been parodied, for example on the front cover of the New York Times Book Review with the headline: "It's Alright Ma, (I'm Only Reading)", referring to Jonathan Lethem's review of Dylan''s Visions of Sin. Charlie Faust ( talk) 20:02, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I added the New York Times Book Review cover, only for it to be removed. Someone said there was 'no valid reason for it' to be here. The image is already in Wikimedia commons; actually, you'll find it on the WP for the New York Times Book Review. It's worth including because it references Milton Glaser's famous Dylan poster, and because Dylan was featured on the front page of The New York Times Book Review, and how many songwriters can say that? I think that's a valid reason. Charlie Faust ( talk) 22:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Under "Legacy", I added that Dave Gibbons and Alan Moore were influenced by Dylan when writing Watchmen. Per Gibbons: "It began with Bob Dylan." I think that merits mention; Watchmen is considered a seminal work, and was included on Time's list of the 100 greatest novels since the magazine's founding in 1923 (not just graphic novels.) I also added Conor McPherson's Girl from the North Country, which sets Dylan's songs in the Great Depression (in Duluth, Minnesota, naturally.) I think it's worth noting authors who were influenced by Dylan (he won the Nobel Prize in Literature, after all.) I know Joyce Carol Oates dedicated a short story ("Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?") to Dylan, and Stephen King named From a Buick 8 after From a Buick 6 (Dylan is one of many rock artists cited in Christine.) Not sure those last two are important enough to merit mention (no disrespect to either King or Oates, I just don't think those are major works.)

There must other authors influenced by Dylan. Anyone know of any?

(I admit I stole this title from The New York Times Book Review, specifically Jonathan Lethem's review of Christopher Ricks's Dylan's Visions of Sin. Bob's been known to borrow, too, so I think he'd approve.) Charlie Faust ( talk) 20:54, 23 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Hi does anyone think that his Personal life should be before discography? If not, that is okay. Thank you. TheGreatestLuvofAll ( talk) 18:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC) reply

My personal opinion is: Leave it as it is. Mick gold ( talk) 14:59, 12 March 2024 (UTC) reply

On second thoughts, I think you're right TheGreatestLuvofAll. I looked at several examples of WP:FA music biographies and most follow the convention of putting Discography at the end. Thanks, Mick gold ( talk) 19:02, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Okay. Thank you. TheGreatestLuvofAll ( talk) 19:16, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I agree, I think it make more sense to put discography at the end of the article, but I'm relatively new to WP and not sure what is conventional for singer-songwriter or band articles Jameson Nightowl ( talk) 05:13, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply

The Legacy section already contains the following Ricks point: "Literary critic Christopher Ricks published Dylan's Visions of Sin, an appreciation of Dylan's work. Following Dylan's Nobel win, Ricks reflected: "I'd not have written a book about Dylan, to stand alongside my books on Milton and Keats, Tennyson and T.S. Eliot, if I didn't think Dylan a genius of and with language."

To this has been added a very long quote from Hitchens: "Christopher Hitchens recalled hearing Dylan at the Poetry Society at Oxford: "I was fairly soon hooked on what Philip Larkin called Dylan's 'cawing, derisive voice', and felt almost personally addressed by the lyrics of "Masters of War" and " Hard Rain", which seemed to encapsulate the way in which I felt about Cuba. Then there were the loving and less cawing strains of "Mr. Tambourine Man", "She Belongs to Me" and "Baby Blue"...I've since had all kinds of differences with Professor Christopher Ricks, but he is and always has been correct in maintaining that Dylan is one of the essential poets of our time, and it felt right to meet him tin the company of Shelley and Milton and Lowell.”

This repeats Ricks’s point, adds more poets (Shelley, Milton and Lowell) and tells us about Hitchens’s many differences with Professor Ricks "but he is and always has been correct in maintaining that Dylan is one of the essential poets of our time." Surely this just makes the Legacy section seem repetitive and bloated. Moreover, the Larkin phrase, "cawing and derisive", is already in the article. So I’ve cut this long addition. Mick gold ( talk) 18:10, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply