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I agree. The section of Law of Biogenesis and Creationism is purely opinion, and uses too broad of a paint brush. As it comes off as hateful or vindictive and a chip on ones shoulder. I can't believe such a part would still exist in Wikipedia for as long as it has. As being quite clearly written by a creationist, puhlease. That last part was pretty "partisan" and spoke for all creationists that support biogenesis when he wasn't even close.
Kevindk 19:30, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
As if it wasn't clear enough, the last sentence gives it away,
"Finally, they argue that once it has been conceded (as is conceded by theistic evolution) that the original cell was created by a divine being, there is no reason to believe He could not have created life in a variety of forms."
This whole article needs a rewrite.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.116.11.90 ( talk) 16:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC).
Several claims in this article do not resonate with what is in the biology textbook sitting in front of me. Especially claims that "the earth's early atmosphere is pure speculation without basis" and "the most basic amino acids were formed in Miller's test tube but the atmosphere required to make them killed them soon after." I don't believe that Campbell's Biology (the textbook) is the "one truth", but I would like to see a citation before I write off what is widely accepted scientifically. Large parts of this article were CLEARLY written by a creationist or proponent of intelligent design. It just reeks of bias. There are whole paragraphs of assertions that are UNCITED. THIS SHOULD HAVE A TAG FOR BEING AN ARTICLE WITHOUT SOURCES and NOT HAVING A NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW. It should be examined thoroughly by people with actual scientific knowledge that can back it up with sources.
I thought people had given up trying to use logic to prove the existence of God. It can't be proven logically, that's why FAITH is a big deal. Believing when there is no reason to believe other than faith. People who embrace logic won't be swayed by the skewing of scientific principles carried out by proponents of intelligent design, who have neither the guts to conclude that they're alone nor the faith to turn to God without logic. Either life is a miracle (which is defined by the property of being outside what makes sense in the normal world, such as gravity, the scientific method, etc), or it's not (and can be explained by what makes sense in the normal world).
Sorry for the rant, but CITE! Even if you're going to only show one side, at least provide evidence for your own arguments! (if there is any evidence... see I won't believe you if you don't CITE!) arghhh!
I will remove this sentence: (although the same criteria also discount anyone who is impotent, for the same reasons). If you look at the [Life] page, the criteria apply to lifeforms (species) not individuals. That's why mules, ants and impotent people are considerd alive and virusus not, as stated on the Life page. Anonymous, 12 Dec 11:53 PM, December 12, 2005
1. Irrelevant mentions ( ex: "life was never seen comming from dead matter" ) 2. No such thing as "creationist biology", creationists just say life was the result of a miracle and came out of nothing, which is a non-falsifiable hypothesis
Please, clean this article
The term "creationist biology" makes as such sense as "plumber's biology". Creationists are not scientists doing scientific research. 203.71.28.216 04:52, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have any sources for any of the claims on this article? KillerChihuahua ?!? 18:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I corrected a possibly misleading statement and a number of grammatical errors. I believe that I was fair in portraying the intention of the statement; however, in it's form it was not appropriate. Feel free to return the concept or corrected argument to the article, addressing the following criticism.
Removed portion: "The organic makeup of life and the makeup viruses are not the same. Viruses feed of life and rarely live outside it's host for long."
1. Is the first statement refering to organic (chemical) makeup, or organic (physiological) makeup? It does posess much of the same chemical makeup (RNA, often DNA, protiens). Physiologically, life does not require organs (physiologically), There is a requirement for the life to be encapsulated in a cell; however this may be a falacy of accident.
2. "Viruses feed of[f] life..." This arguement is spurious and incomplete. Any organism that is not a producer is a consumer. Consumers feed off life. If you intend to state that viruses require a host in order to have the mechanisms required to reproduce, then you must state that.
3. Your claim is that a virus does not live, yet then you claim they do by stating: "viruses rarely live outside..." A possible correction: "Viruses are rarely viable if excluded from a host cell for an extended period of time"
rmosler 12:19, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
"The spontaneous generation that Pasteur and others disproved was the idea that life forms such as mice, maggots, and bacteria can appear fully formed. They disproved a form of creationism. There is no law of biogenesis saying that very primitive life cannot form from increasingly complex molecules." [1]
I believe this should be added to the entry to clarify what Pasteur and others were actually addressing with their law of biogenesis. Furthermore this article should be included in Biology, which I'll do now... but perhaps it should also be included in Creationism as well given their interest in adopting it. - Roy Boy 800 17:55, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Nah, it's outside of the scope of the article. The purpose is not to debate creation vs. evolution, but to provide information on the term biogenesis. While creationists do compare abiogenesis to generatio spontanea, I believe that comparison is better addressed in the Abiogenesis article than here, if at all. Gralgrathor ( talk) 08:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
In particular, I have a problem with the following quote: "Additionally, some point to lesser-known and controversial experiments such as those performed by Andrew Crosse as examples of abiogenesis." I looked up this link and found that Andrew Crosse produced an experiment in the 1800's in which he discovered the creation of insects in the lab, but later he concluded that he likely had an experiment contaminated with insect eggs. This experiment is lesser known for a reason, and I don't know of anybody who is pointing to it presently as an example of abiogenesis. I won't edit the statement because by some chance I may be mistaken and that some proponents of abiogenesis in fact are using Crosse's experiment as an argument. However, combined with some of the problems of above, I suspect that the article is written poorly and perhaps with bias (although I can see an attempt at neutrality). I advocate it's omission from Wikipedia. 16:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
What the heck's wrong with I.D.? Just because there's proof for I.D doesn't mean that people have to get all mad about it, saying that the article was "quite clearly written by a creationist". For all I know, most science text books are quite clearly written by an evolutionist! Anyway, I think those that don't teach the debate in biology class are dangerously violating our right to free speech. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.103.247.124 ( talk • contribs) 20:07, 16 May 2007
I am unsure as to whether the "atmosphere" in Urey and Miller's experiment is now scientifically accepted as the correct one. Does anyone know? Wikiisawesome 16:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
"Anyway, I think those that don't teach the debate in biology class are dangerously violating our right to free speech."
Why is the law of biogenesis section so short with no link to scientific material, nor a link to how the law is actually written? It was also my understanding that the law of biogenesis deals with macro organisms such as rats and maggots. http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB000.html
In general Laws apply to all time, but they do not necessarily apply to all circumstances. Why do you put "modern organisms" when I am pretty sure it should be multicellular lifeforms?
Jaydstats ( talk) 13:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Reading the section Law of Biogenesis we see the classic creationist and fundamentalist language of "life from non-life". The clarification of spontaneous generation of fully formed life is also gone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.188.116.156 ( talk) 16:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Dear Wikipedia contribuitors,
receive a very respectful greeting. I would like this article to have more information about certain latin phrases associated with the origin of life such as those in the title of this section. I have made a similar request on the article about Abiogenesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Abiogenesis.
Thanks in advance for your help! George Rodney Maruri Game ( talk) 18:32, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Brett Nortje 07:46 30 August 2011 (GMT+2) If the known periodic table does not produce life, then what on earth could? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brett Nortje ( talk • contribs) 05:48, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
This has been deleted as "fringe".
Biochemist Christian Schwabe argues that chemistry is the driving force of the assembly of life, he further contends that the process of biogenesis was so fast that less than a billion years after accretion the Earth contained microorganisms, he claims that the Miller experiment has not proven abiogenesis but has proven biogenesis as the molecules which were discovered in the experiment have been found throughout the universe. He further contends that life in the universe has always existed as a manifestation of matter and energy. He also claims that all species on earth have an independent origin from pools of nucleic acids, according to his theory life is widespread throughout the whole universe. Genomic potential hypothesis of evolution: A concept of biogenesis in habitable spaces of the universe, Christian Schwabe, The Anatomical Record, Volume 268, Issue 3, pages 171-179, 1 November 2002 Online PDF Link
But as you can see it has been published in a notable journal. Chemistryfan ( talk) 21:41, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
I notice that the section regarding the law of biogenesis always seems to have the mentions of Creationists removed. The "law of biogenesis" is not recognized. It's an invenstion by creationists so they can then claim evolution violates it. I'm paraphrasing PZ Meyers on that last bit. 75.92.195.155 ( talk) 19:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Is biogenesis a belief or scientific theory? The Pasteur experiments imply the latter. -- beefyt ( talk) 20:09, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
It's a scientific law. Although clearly some here dispute that. -- Hskian ( talk) 17:27, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
in consideration of the lay public, perhaps it would be commendable for this article to include a brief section that pertains to secondary and tertiary sources that critically analyse the topic (by this I am referring to scientific sources, including but not exclusively journal articles). FoCuSandLeArN ( talk) 21:48, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
The generation of life from non-living material is called abiogenesis, and it has occurred at least once in the history of the Earth, when life first arose
Sophie means wisdom said
do we need to cite statements of the obvious?
How this statement is allowed i dont know, we are talking science here, not what some users may 'believe', to the people who think this has been demonstrated claim your $3,000,000 worth of prizes and cite the relevant literature. Until you find the literature (go to NCBI) i will add 'hypothesized to have occurred'. This is science, NOT OPINION.
From abiogenesis page (even that has it accurate in that it says 'may' and thats the main page).
In particular, the term usually refers to the processes by which life on Earth may have arisen. I
I have added 'hypothesized to have'.
My name IS NOT jinxmchue either.
Jinx69 ( talk) 02:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
AFAIK at the moment, the current sentence ("The generation of life from non-living material is called abiogenesis, and has occurred at least once in the history of the Earth, [1] or in the history of the Universe (see panspermia), when life first arose."), with citation and related relevant wikilinks, seems scientifically sound and acceptable - and entirely appropriate to a scientific article on " Biogenesis" - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan ( talk) 23:20, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
References
I am desperately trying to understand the kneejerk reaction around an edit concerning whether abiogenesis "has" occurred as opposed to "is speculated to have" occurred. While I am beginning to understand why I was told 3 years ago at the beginning of my Ph.D. program NOT to trust Wikipedia as a credible academic resource, I still thought that the people editing the articles would use some type of credible scientific approach in editing information. The article by Spiegel and Turner (2012) does not "prove" abiogenesis. It is simply a probability model that incorporates speculated data for a probability outcome of life by abiogenesis on earth-like planets, if such a thing occurred on earth. The authors themselves say, "The early emergence of life on Earth has been taken as evidence that the PROBABILITY [emphasis added] of abiogenesis is high, if starting from young Earth-like conditions" (p.395) Lest we assume that they do not in fact mean that abiogenesis on Earth is undisputed, they also add the following, "However, knowledge of the actual origin of life on Earth, to say nothing of other possible ways in which it might originate, is so limited that a more complex model is not yet justified." (p.396) Using this or any research that fails to prove abiogenesis, while it explicitly states it is invoking probability is a breach of scientific integrity. One of the main reasons certain groups of people now doubt our work as researchers and scientists is because of this type of pseudoscience demonstrated by the contributors of Wikipedia that purports to be both scientific and factual, while in reality it is closely linked itself to pure ideology as opposed to empirical evidence. Feel free to change it back from my edit, knowing that I will not only support my most esteemed professors' advice concerning the lack of academic credibility at Wikipedia but will also share my newfound knowledge with colleagues, learners, friends, and any other group of people that I may encounter, which is simply validating the comments made by my professors that the site lacks any real academic credibility. This is quite easy to see as I go back and look at how many times this wording has been changed to satisfy ideology instead of science. Since the authors of the article being cited for proof do indeed state themselves that there is no proof, how can one possibly take this article or any article seriously, for there is apparently a war of ideologies on this website as opposed to actual scientific inquiry. BKH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.56.188 ( talk) 07:18, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
My apologies for editing the last comment on the talk page. I thought I was on the article page. However, saying life wasn't here and then it was is not a credible address to the points raised. If the researchers of the study you cite do not see the answer as being that simple, I hardly think it is appropriate to use them as a citation for your opinion. You're basically making a faith claim, so before you criticize other ideologies, make sure you're not committing the same offense. Back it up with a credible reference that supports your stated point with empirical evidence. If not, at least don't use a research study that states the opposite--that there is no certainty about the origin of life on Earth. BKH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.56.188 ( talk) 14:54, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Mr. Fink, I can appreciate someone genuinely being concerned about scholarly work, and if you or Novangelis are seriously concerned about quality, I would ask why neither of you has addressed the fact that you are using a reference to imply a statement is true when the reference does not say that at all. This is far from a matter of trolling, for although I have used Wikipedia in the past to look up various topics, I liked to think that it reflected true scholarship and integrity. This is not a matter of creationism or evolution as far as I can see. The matter is one of integrity as a scholar. It seems quite pointless to state the obvious once again, but let me try. The authors of the cited study plainly state that they are uncertain as to how life originated. This does not imply creationism unless you're blind to all other possibilities. They do, however, speculate that abiogenesis happened on Earth, so the wording has integrity that way. If you're going to falsify information, would it not be better to remove the reference and simply state an unsubstantiated claim. Once again, this is not a matter of whether abiogenesis is or isn't true, but if you are going to cite an article stating that it is, at least have the scholastic integrity to pick one that states such a proposition as fact. I have defended the edits because it makes the sentence viable, but if all you're looking for is making your point whether you can find a viable article or not, go for it. I will leave the integrity of the edit up to you and Novangelis, because it is obvious that you are so protective of an ideology that valid objections are meaningless. Creationism or evolution were the fartherest things from my mind, since I actually read the article. The issue was bad scholarship, and no university I attended for any of my degrees would have tolerated such falsification of references. Perhaps your is different. There has been no credible discussion of this reference and the subsequent wording, and yes, I do think it reflects on all of Wikipedia. Rest assured that I will not seek to correct the mistake again. BKH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.56.188 ( talk) 15:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (
link)</ref> - if interested, related refs may be found
HERE - please feel free to rv/mv/ce of course - in any case - Enjoy! :)
Drbogdan (
talk) 16:45, 28 February 2013 (UTC)It looks like I'll have to keep this article on my watchlist permanently. :-) "The authors of the cited study plainly state that they are uncertain as to how life originated" - yes, but how life originated is a very different question than whether life originated. The article clearly states (among other things), "we can try to use our knowledge that life arose at least once in an environment (whatever it was) on the early Earth..." so I can't see how this fails to support the statement. I have reinserted the change, but (of course) I am happy to discuss. Arc de Ciel ( talk) 00:40, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
References
What does the this have to do with Biogenesis?
No citation and it also contradicts the abiogenesis and the spontaneous generation article. Spontaneous Generation means that ordinary living organisms like mice and maggots can be formed often and spontaneously. It was believed that specific organisms came from specific non living matter other than eggs and seeds. One example used in the Spontaneous Generation article is the "recipe" for mice:
Another "recipe" for scorpions:
If you honestly think that disproving the fact that mice can be created with cloth and wheat proves "the law of biogenesis" you are sadly mistaken. I will remove it if a citation isn't provided within a few days.
At first I didn't think there was a problem including Spontaneous Generation in the article but after some more reading I would really like to know why it is included. Like I said before I don't see how disproving the ridiculous idea of Spontaneous Generation has anything at all to do with biogenesis. Please explain to me how it has anything to do with biogenesis. Кwiztas (talk) 09:40, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
I think it's still necessary to elaborate on the distinction between life in general and complex, modern life. I also think this article could do with a phrase or to, or at least a link to an article, describing how the fact that the "law of biogenesis" is generally called a law does not mean that it must hold without exception. Since obviously it cannot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gralgrathor ( talk • contribs) 14:36, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
The very first sentence should not have the word "organelles" but should end with the word "organisms." Biogenesis refers to whole organisms, not parts of organisms. [1]. Nowhere in the article are organelles discussed. The word should be removed from the first sentence. Rubiks6 ( talk) 11:59, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
The article consisted basically of a rehash of the history of spontaneous generation and Pasteur's refutation of that theory, leaving the only "new" bit the dictionary definition that biogenesis = getting life from life, i.e. normal biology (reproduction, or at a stretch a bit of evolution). In other words, there's nothing there (per WP:DICDEF) for an article: we can't have an article which just says that a term is defined as such-and-such, as Wikipedia is not a dictionary. I've created a short section in spontaneous generation that describes the historic usage (now obsolete, as modern biologists say "reproduction" when they are talking about getting life from life), and redirected to that new section. I do hope this is clear and fine with everyone. Otherwise, happy to discuss. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 17:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
The words Biogenesis and Abiogenesis were introduced to the world by Thomas H Huxley in 1870, calling on previous work by Francesco Redi in a Presidential Address to the BAAS.
Huxley's definitions were:
"the hypothesis that living matter always arises by the agency of pre-existing living matter ... I shall call ... the hypothesis of Biogenesis ... and ... that living matter may be produced by not living matter [I shall call] the hypothesis of Abiogenesis" BAPhilp ( talk) 07:51, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
A little later Huxley, attributing earlier work to Francesco Redi, said this, which hastily misread may have led to the idea behind the redirect:
(quote) Against all odds, however, Redi, strong with the strength of demonstrable fact, did splendid battle for Biogenesis; but it is remarkable that he held the doctrine in a sense which, if he had lived in these times, would have infallibly caused him to be classed among the defenders of "spontaneous generation." "Omne vivum ex vivo," "no life without antecedent life," aphoristically sums up Redi's doctrine; but he went no further. (end quote)
Thomas H. Huxley, Discourses — Biological and Geological Essays, 1894 Project Gutenberg EBook #10060 — Preceding unsigned comment added by BAPhilp ( talk • contribs) 21:36, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
Thanks, bot, sorry. BAPhilp ( talk) 21:51, 13 June 2023 (UTC)