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'Links to avoid', #11 makes it clear that links to social networking sites (such as Myspace and Facebook), are to be avoided. It does appear dishonest when a link to a facebook page has been deleted to reinstate it with the name "Ahava website"
I have sought advice from the Wikipedia Live chat help page regarding the inclusion of a rider regarding (1)the listing of products, (2)the use of material sourced from Facebook,(3)the inclusion of a rider such as "However no independent scientific evidence has been adduced in support of this belief." I was advised: (1)on the listing of products: When an article starts suggesting specific products for a random malady, warning. eg "sunscreen" is ok but not "Banana Boat Bronzing Sunscreen SPF 50 with a Hint of Lemon." (2)Facebook and other social networking sites are not reliable sources; neither are aggregators (3)the inclusion of a rider such as that given is acceptable unless such scientific evidence is cited.
Does anyone have any objection to these principles being used when compiling this section? Floccinauci ( talk) 13:06, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
The Lead
The hypertheme (or lead as Gilabrand refers to it) currently tells us what Ahava does and where its "flagship" stores are. The infobox gives the location of the company administrative headquarters. We are not told where the company actually produces its products - this geographical information is for some reason in the history section mixed in with information about the shareholders. Far more consistent to place it upfront with the information about the locations of the admin HQ and the "flagship stores (although whether this latter snippet really warrants placement in the hypertheme is somewhat doubtful but not worth my energy contesting).
If anyone moves/removes this information regarding the location in the first paragraph could they please give a substantive reason as to why it should not be there?
Thanks
Floccinauci (
talk) 13:20, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Gillebrand has described me as a "POV warrior who has been vandalizing this article since 2009". Emotive accusations like this are not helpful. Perhps Gillebrand, you could explain why you feel the need to hide the fact that the factory producing these cosmetics is not in Israel but in a settlement in the Occupied Palestinian Territories? Why did you re-write the article without consulting with other editors? Why do you feel the need to remove information, facts, which do not accord with your own view of the world? Please, no more name-calling, no more deletions of well-referenced material, no addition of material which is not supported by your citations - just proper, accurate well referenced material. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Floccinauci ( talk • contribs) 05:32, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Location of Mitspe Shalem can be clearly seen to be north of the Green Line in the Occupied Palestinian Territories http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Israel&aq=0&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=45.660664,87.539063&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Israel&ll=31.524703,35.772858&spn=0.687143,1.367798&z=10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Floccinauci ( talk • contribs) 08:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I doubt that the user who just changed "occupied West Bank territories" for "liberated Judea and Samaria" will take care to discuss his or her viewpoint here, but if someone is willing, let me state that there is a consensus in Wikipedia to consider the term West Bank as the correct English neutral wording, as opposed to Palestine or to Judea and Samaria and that nobody doubts the fact that this territory is military occupied - it is not part of the State of Israel, not according to the UN and not according to Israel's law (the latter except for Jerusalem, but the Ahava plant is not located in Jerusalem). Besides, the source cited, The Guardian, uses the term "occupied territories", so keeping it is keeping the source's wording. Changing it could be considered as POV-vandalism.-- Ilyacadiz ( talk) 14:03, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
This small page has received a lot of attention in the last few days, not all of what appears to be appropriate. Concerning the Code Pink boycott, my view is that the following points should be on the page, no matter what the exact wording:
1) the manufacturing plant is on occupied territory
2) Code Pink should be mentioned by name, not a (false) label such as "anti-Israel" (?)
3) the reasoning behind the boycott should be briefly described.
This version http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Ahava_(company)&oldid=315362164 for example would meet these, with the possible proviso that "West Bank" be modified to "occupied West Bank" since the legal status ties into the reasoning behind the boycott.
Also, the external link to the boycott page http://www.stolenbeauty.org/article.php?list=type&type=415 is IMO entirely appropriate in this context, much like the Ahava homepage. I wouldn't be in favour of removing the link to the company's homepage. -- Dailycare ( talk) 15:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
as selective or inaccurate is disingenuous. The sentence could be edited for grammar, but that's pretty much it. It's also a shame that the spam link for the Australian store has been added back into the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.17.238.199 ( talk) 18:59, 24 July 2010 (UTC)"The Ahava factory is in an Israeli settlement in the Occupied Palestinian Territory on land that was a Palestinian village of Arab et Ta'amira."
Replacing any location like "Deas Sea shore" with "West Bank" and so on makes the article less informative. The controversy is covered in body, no need to push it into lead and share holder parts. Also, please keep close to sources, if source says that the company is from Holon, keep the infobox that way. After all the article is about the company, not about the I-P conflict. -- ElComandanteChe ( talk) 11:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
A truly NPOV description of the area either known as the West Bank or as Judea and Samaria would be to call it "disputed territories." 'Occupied West Bank' or 'Occupied territories' gives the impression that Israel has no right to be there, which is highly debatable. The area also happens to be "occupied" by many more Arabs than Jews, so if you say it with the right intonation someone could think that you mean "occupied" as opposed to "empty" as in, "You cant sit there, that seat is occupied." Almost all of the land in which Jewish communities were built were not previously "occupied." Almost all of the communities were built on previously empty land. Whatever source was used to show that Mitzpeh Shalem was built on Arab land should be checked and rechecked, because it was a general policy (although not universal) to build on land not previously owned by Arabs. Land that was owned by Arabs was purchased by Jews that wanted to build there. If an Arab owner did not want to sell, he was not forced. Just take a look at communities like Efrat, which has several swatches of Arab land within their community which to this day is still cultivated as grape vineyards by local Arabs. Nationalized land which Jordan "occupied" as a state after '48 and before '67 was converted to Nationalized land by Israel after the '67 war. This is most likely the provenance of Mitzpeh Shalem. So this community was either built on land purchased from private Arabs, or converted from Jordanian land to Israeli land. Yes it is disputed, but as long as Israel has authority over the area it should be considered part of Israel, although it isn't strictly speaking. To get into a tizzy because Ahava makes their cosmetics in Mitzpeh Shalem, a place that did not displace Arabs or oppress Arabs, is saying that Jews do not have a right to live there. But isn't that strange? Jews have a right to live anywhere they want in France, the US, even China if they wanted to but not in land that was won in a defensive war and that is mentioned in the Bible as part of the Jewish inheritance during the time of the Jewish kings. Kind of weird, don't you think? A true peace settlement with the Palestinians will mean that just as Arabs can live in Israel (20% or the population of Israel) Jews should be allowed to live in "Palestine." Why do the Jews need to evacuate from any future additional Arab state (I believe Palestine would be the 23rd Arab state in the world)but the Arabs that live in the only Jewish state in the world will continue to live within Israel's borders? Just as I do not advocate "transfer" of Arabs out of Israel I do not advocate "transfer" of Jews out of the future Palestine. Anyone who is truly interested in peace, a true peace, should buy Ahava products by the cartload. Kicking the Jews out of their homes is not the way to peace. Liberals should be supporting the only democratic state in the Middle East. The only state that permits freedom of speech, protest against government leaders and policies, free and fair elections, women's rights, gay rights, basically everything most western societies hold dear. And yet there is BDS trying to cripple Israel's economy, if only they could. This is why even the most leftist citizens in Israel believe boycotts and other intense pressure to evacuate Jewish communities is a manifestation of antisemitism, and not a sign of a true desire for peace. Wikipedia has the power to shape attitudes. Repeating over and over again "Occupied Palestinian Territories" with an upper case 'O' as if "occupied" is part of the name of this new country, is infuriating because it can only lead to more hatred, not less. You are right, it is too late to change "West Bank" to "Judah and Samaria" but "West Bank" makes no sense as a place name. the west bank of the Jordan River? That is miles and miles away from most of the "West Bank." The true geographic names of the areas in question are Judah and Samaria. That is what these places are called in the bible, and that is what they were called until either 1948 or 1967, I am not sure which, but certainly not over the hundreds of years of history before the 20th century. Take a look at some old maps and see what these areas are called. Not the West Bank, that's for sure. But it is not too late to change "occupied territories" to "disputed territories." there is a dispute going on, which the parties are trying to resolve. Boycotts, finger-pointing and self-righteousness do not help the situation. Simplysavvy ( talk) 12:12, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 21:51, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Ahava (company) →
Ahava — This is the only actual article on something with the name Ahava. Presently, the page called "Ahava" has two other listings, one that simply says that Ahava is Hebrew for love (and should probably not be there, since disambiguation pages are not supposed to list dictionary definitions), and the other that is a red link. If need be, these can be listed on the top of the page with one or more hatnotes.
Linda Olive (
talk) 05:04, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Chesdovi, you claimed that the text is already covered by the quote, but it isn't, the text by Code Pink is Code Pinks statement/pov, while the text you removed gives evidence of the IC view. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 20:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
<- Here's a BBC report, Concern over Israel settlement exports. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:54, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
It is OK to have a brief mention of international opinion on the legality of Israeli settlements. However, it is not OK to attribute a viewpoint to the United Nations as a whole when the opinion is actually that of the Bureau of the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People. — Anomalocaris ( talk) 00:35, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
< this was in response to this post at User talk:Floccinauci >
Dear Mr Wasted Time, You have accused me of edit warring. Now I am a relatively new user so I checked the information available on edit- warring and it indicates that this involves a situation where an edit is reversed without sufficient reason 3 or more times in a 24 hour period. I have not done that. I have, over a period of about 4 months, removed it 3 or 4 times. I have serious concerns about the inclusion of this picture as it is no more than a promotion for the company.
It is sourced from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AhavaPromotion.JPG where the file name is File:AhavaPromotion.JPG and the description states:"Models promoting Ahava's skin care products... at the Spring 2009 New York Fashion Week" The author of the image is "Wasted Time"
Here is a second cause for concern - the person who is pushing for the inclusion of the image is none other than the author of the image, hardly a disinterested party.
You have suggested that the support of 3 other editors is evidence that the image is not promotional. Do these people have any expertise in multimodal text analysis? I could find 5 mates to support my point of view that it is promotional but that would not make me correct. I rely on the information given at the source of the image where you, its creator have labelled it promotional.
Nor does the fact you have 3 people agreeing with you mean you have consensus - you still need to convince me, and probably others, of your point of view.
Further, the analogy with the Corvette could be considered specious, as that is not a model in current production. Any advertising images there are historical ephemera of interest to car enthusiasts. The AHAVA cosmetics are currently in production, the company stands to benefit from the use of promotional materials in a supposedly neutral environment.
I will not reverse your reversal of my edit for a few days to give you time to provide a substantive reason for its inclusion. Failing that I will delete it again.
Regards
Floccinauci —Preceding unsigned comment added by Floccinauci ( talk • contribs) 12:52, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Since no-one has made any objection, I am now deleting the promotional image from the main page. I note that, reference to the page history will show that, on 01:17, 12 September 2008, when Wasted Time R added this image to the page, he described his edit as:(add promotion image) Will add my Floccinauci ( talk) 06:36, 30 April 2011 (UTC)and hope I have properly signed this edit, if not, my apologies to all
No worries about the delay - I understand busy and thank you for a detailed and reasoned reply. It may well be that other Wikipedia pages contain promotions for current products - I don't have time to check them all. I accept you have no interest in promoting AHAVA as such. You have suggested a reasonable compromise in that an image of an Ahava protest could also be inserted. However your mate Gillibrand has just completely re-written the article without consultation. How long would such an image be allowed to remain in the face of a consensus that seems to want to give free advertising to this company and its products? By the way, you suggested I disliked this company. I do dislike this wiki about AHAVA because there is too much uncritical acceptance of company marketing. Much of the research is unscholarly. Media quotations from biased sources are given as references without critique or even re-written as fact. For example in the latest version (1 May 2011), the citation is to http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/09/smallbusiness/ahava_dead_sea.fsb/index.htm where it states:
In the re-write at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahava the words "Ahava credits.. " and "says" have disappeared changing the meaning from an opinion of the company to an attempt to cite as a fact. This sort of editing discredits the whole wikipedia project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Floccinauci ( talk • contribs) 07:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
This is an article about a company that manufactures skin products. It is not a political manifesto. Attempts to commandeer the article for political purposes, rephrasing and reorganizing material to convey the POV of certain editors will be reverted. There is a section on controversy that deals the location & boycotts, but this information is secondary. The subject of the article is, and will remain, the company and its products. -- Geewhiz ( talk) 04:45, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
<- I reverted Soosim's removal of the location from the lead and made some other copyedits. I don't think the edit is in any way controversial, political or inconsistent with policy. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:03, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
There appears to be persistent disagreement as to how to word the first couple of sentences in the Controversy section. The edit here makes use of both the sources currently being cited, furnishing the reader with an adequate context to understand specifically what (viz. who) the source of the controversy is. That is important, since neither the UNHRC nor B'Tselem themselves determine what the law is but rather function as interpreters – and as anyone editing this article ought to know, their interpretations as well as their motives are often called into question. At this point, any further edits should be accompanied by an explanation here so consensus can be reached in a collaborative spirit.— Biosketch ( talk) 06:55, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Sean and Biosketch - I have replaced first sentence this time with a reference to the primary source the Hague Conventions on the ICRC website - reason is for replacement is to provide the context in international law for the rewording - as Sean says "It is a fact and can be presented as a fact to provide context.". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Floccinauci ( talk • contribs) 09:10, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree that the criticism is only implied by the UNHRC but think that the wording "Expresses its grave concern at:(a) The continuing Israeli settlement and related activities, in violation of international law,..." constitutes criticism of commercial activity especially "and related activities". However I think the B'tselem report is quite clear in its criticism first on p.35 "Since the beginning of the occupation, Israel has utilized the resources of the Jordan Valley and northern Dead Sea it took control of – the fertile land, the water sources, mineral resources, tourist sites, as well as the cheap labor of the local population. It has done this despite its declaration, which conforms with the interpretation given in 1983 by the High Court of Justice to the laws of occupation, that “area held in belligerent occupation is not an open field for economic exploitation" then later "Despite international law’s prohibition on exploiting the natural resources of occupied territory, for decades Israel has allowed Israeli private entrepreneurs to profit from the resources at two main sites in the area."(p. 42 introducing section on AHAVA. Hope this helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Floccinauci ( talk • contribs) 12:07, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
I have replaced the paragraph refuting the company's claim that they do not use mud mined in Palestine. I regard Code Pink as a reliable source - not liking their politics does not make them unreliable. However I am happy to discuss any concerns about this with Soosim or others. Perhaps some evidence as to why Code Pink is unreliable? Thanks everyone — Preceding unsigned comment added by Floccinauci ( talk • contribs) 12:11, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
True and your wording is much better - more concise. However the existance of the permit is a matter of fact and as you say we can take facts from this source. I have also checked back with Who Profits, the people who did the research, and they have written to confirm that Code Pink reported this accurately. Unfortunately Wikipedia does not seem to support reliable research which is not reported while sources such as tabloid newspapers are acceptable.
Too right. That is why I have replaced the disclaimer after the paragraph about the apparently miraculous effects of dead sea mud. Soosim, Code Pink is the subject of the report. YNet is telling us what Code Pink has said. We are not claiming that it is true just that Code Pink have made the statement. "Says" and "states" are neutral terms and to be preferred. Or as ElComandanteChe has said "X says Y" does not mean "Y is a fact" However it remains true that X has said it.
-> Floccinauci, please remember to sign your posts everytime. The bot will stop signing them for you eventually. Sean.hoyland - talk 13:55, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
It is a fact that the Israeli organisation "Who Profits" has done this research and located these documents. As ElCommandante said "I'd take facts from there, but not their analysis." Their analysis is definitely PoV but this is a statement of fact, something that happened. If you have evidence that CodePink are an unreliable source of facts please say so - you have been given this opportunity before and failed to present any evidence that they were an unreliable source. As El Commandante said, maybe not high quality, but reliable as to facts. Please do not delete this section again without presenting evidence that it is unfactual. Thank you And Sean, sorry about the forgetfulness, I do most editing late at night. mea culpa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Floccinauci ( talk • contribs) 11:38, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
I restored most of the material removed recently, with addition of sources and some rewording. I'm concerned with the fact that a series of edits deals with single (though, important) aspect of the article, while ignoring WP:PRESERVE policy regarding all the rest. Please treat all article aspects and points of view equally, or, if you are not interested - mark problems and let other editors fix them. Mark dead links, tag sections and request citations instead of deleting material. -- ElComandanteChe ( talk) 15:01, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
...but the question has caused too many reverts back and forward. Let's solve the mystery once and forever. After extensive research querying Google for 5 minutes I found enough links, for example:
and some historical perspective:
which left me with an impression that some therapeutic effect of Dead Sea mud and minerals is an established fact. Of course it is abused by businesses for promotion, but this is another question. -- ElComandanteChe ( talk) 15:14, 21 July 2011 (UTC) Great research but the fact that something is being written about is not evidence of its veracity. I have read only the first paper in its entirety and it provides no strong evidence for therepeutic effectiveness - not a criticism as it in fact does not aim to do this although it does review some of the literature. Apart from historical sources, the most recent medical study cited was 1960. The section on Dead Sea mud as medication concludes "Thus, the medical applications of Dead Sea asphalt extended over 2000 years, and it is no wonder that its repute for healing, and in particular for dermatological diseases, continues as of today and that this reputation is being utilised for commercial endeavours." As you can see this talks of reputation rather than proven effectiveness, which is quite a different thing. Basically they are saying that people believe in this stuff, not that there is evidence of its efficacy. Did you read any of the other papers? Is the cosmetics journal peer-reviewed? I will look at them when I have time.
Soosim, scientific articles do not prove things. Science provides evidence and good science also gives an assessment of the reliability of the evidence. The article by Nissenbaum et al.is a reliable source but is not about the efficacy of the alleged therapeutic properties of dead sea mud as it reports on the analysis of certain constituents of the mud. It is really much more relevant to an article about dead sea mud than an article about Ahava. The second article does not mention Ahava either. The study described was undertaken some time ago, comparing ΔRz(b-a) for three different gels one of which contained dead sea minerals. The third article is a fascinating historical account of the ways the various resources of the Palestinian shores of the dead sea have been used through the ages, with particular emphasis on the Essenes. Again not very relevant here.
But I am not sure what is being put forward regarding research? Are you saying that no scientific papers can be cited? Should we delete the information which has been sourced from Ben Gurion University of the Negev? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Floccinauci ( talk • contribs) 11:20, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Could people please be a little more scholarly when citing references? Title, or Title and author are not sufficient; it is usual to give at least date and publisher as well. Thanks peeps. 220.239.169.163 ( talk) 22:22, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
The controversy section, though was already discussed in length over this page, is still a very problematic one and I afraid that it defy the WP:NPOV policy. First, the section take almost or even more than half of the whole article. Second, the controversy over Ahava products is simply because they are manufactured in Israel. Organisations that call to boycott Israeli products usually do not distinguish between one Israeli product to another, so this issue is not unique to Ahava products even if the calls to boycott them sounds louder (the same way that the calls to boycott Israeli agricultural product in Europe are in very high profile and etc). As it appears here, it seem to serve only a political purpose and to promote the notion that these products are just bad, because they may serve apartheid regime..There is nothing within the products themselves, aside for they being Israeli, that is controversial. So, the article in its present version also violate WP:UNDUE policy. If not removing this section at all, which is the only genuinely decent solution, cut it short to no more than one or two lines, no image needed.-- Gilisa ( talk) 11:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
The non-NPOV used in the previous version of the introduction section and the controversy section which is some 43% of the article is a base example of how pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel individuals are willing to hijack neutral information and media, twist it into controversy and damage Wikipedia as a neutral source of information to further a narrow political agenda. Editors of all persuasions should reject such attempts to twist language and knowledge. YSchary ( talk) 14:06, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Regarding this revert, I think Wafa, as an official agency, is okay as a source but it probably requires attribution. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:33, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
it is way too long, for this article. i will try in the next few days to edit it. and yes, specifics will be deleted. no need for coatrack and as is, it is undue. any help and suggestions are welcome. Soosim ( talk) 08:13, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
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