This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mongols, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Mongol culture, history, language, and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MongolsWikipedia:WikiProject MongolsTemplate:WikiProject MongolsMongols articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
China related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChinaWikipedia:WikiProject ChinaTemplate:WikiProject ChinaChina-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to
ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please
join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country articles
This article is within the scope of
WikiProject East Asia, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.East AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject East AsiaTemplate:WikiProject East AsiaEast Asia articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
This page has archives. Sections older than 100 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.
To Interpret or to Mis-Interpret
Four sources are listed to support the thesis that
Hucker, Charles O. (1975). China's Imperial Past: An Introduction to Chinese History and Culture. Stanford University Press. ISBN 0-8047-2353-2. page 136
Pritsak, O. (1959). "XUN Der Volksname der Hsiung-nu". Central Asiatic Journal (in German). 5: 27–34.
Henning, W. B. (1948). "The date of the Sogdian ancient letters". Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies (BSOAS). 12 (3–4): 601–615. doi:10.1017/S0041977X00083178. JSTOR 608717. S2CID 161867825.
On p. 36 of Hucker (1975), it is written "The proto-Turkic Hisung-nu were now challenged by other aliens groups". So Hucker (1975) is correctly interpreted as supports the thesis that the Xiongnu were proto-Turkic speakers
Sims-Williams (2004) translated Sogdian Letters 1, 2, 3, and 5. Letter 2 mentioned the Huns (i.e. Xiongnu) yet letter 2 did not say that the Xiongnu spoke a Turkic language at all. Whoever added Sims-Williams (2004) misinterpreted the source for
pan-Turkist POV-pushing.
Nowhere in Henning (1948) are the Xiongnu / Xwn asserted to be as Turkic speakers. The word Turkestan is found in page 602, footnote 1 "Cf. Bartold, Turkestan, p. 161", a source which Henning uses to support this assertion "No doubt the agents of the 'merchant-princes" of Sogdia'1 [...]". Again, whoever added Henning (1948) misinterpreted the source for
pan-Turkist POV-pushing.
Pristak (1959): :
in n. 24 on p. 32, mentions Ottoman-Turkish term for the Zaporizhian-Cossacks;
Es ist deswegen möglich, daß man -yü als einen chin. Spottnamen für ihre nomadischen Nachbarn, etwa 'Brei(esser)' nach der Hauptnahrung derselben zu deuten hat. Vgl. hierzu die osmanisch-türkische Bezeichnung für die ukrainischen Zaporoger-Kosaken [...] Potqalï ,,Grützenbreiesserʽʽ (s. darüber Pritsak. Oriens , Bd. 6:2. 1953. 204). Verl. hierzu noch Anm. 25"
Rough translation:
It is therefore possible that one has to interpret -yü as a Chinese derisive nickname for their nomadic neighbours, as 'porridge(-eater)' after their staple food itself. Cf. the Ottoman-Turkish designation for the Zaporizhian-Cossacks [...] Potqalï ,,Groat-porridge eaterʽʽ (see above). (See on this Pritsak. Oriens, Vol. 6:2. 1953. 204). See also Note 25"
Yet this is irrelevant to whether the Xiongnu spoke Turkic.
In n p. 29 Pritsak wrote:
5. Die in den ersten chin. Reichsannalen „kanonisierte" Bezeichnung für die (asiatischen) Hunnen 匈奴 Hsiung-nu ist nicht alt. Sie ist erst ab etwa 230 v. Chr. belegt.9 Sie gehört zu den Bezeichnungen der zweiten Gruppe. Das zweite Zeichen 奴 -nu pflegte schon Otto Franke entsprechend seiner chin. Bedeutung als ,,Sklaven, Knechteʽʽ zu übersetzen.10
rough translation:
The designations "canonized" in the first Chinese imperial annals for the (Asiatic) Huns 匈奴 Hsiung-nu is not old. It is only from about 230 BCE.10 It belongs to the designations of the second group. Otto Franke used to translate the second character 奴 -nu according to its Chinese meaning as "slaves, servants".10
For note 10 Pritsak cited:
Beiträge aus chinesischen Quellen zur Kenntnis der Türkvölker und Skythen Zentralasiens (Berlin 1904), 5; Geschichte des chinesischen Reiches, Bd. 1 (Berlin-Leipzig 1930), 134
Rough translation:
Contributions from Chinese sources on the knowledge of the Turkic peoples and Scythians of Central Asia (Berlin 1904), 5; History of the Chinese Empire, Vol. 1 (Berlin-Leipzig 1930), 134
Yet Pritsak did not explicitly mention the the Xiongu were Turkic speakers.
So again, whoever added Pritsak (1959) misinterpreted the source for
pan-Turkist POV-pushing.
Unable to edit this article
I was going to correct a spelling in this article, but was prevented from doing so because it appears to be blocked from editing. Please fix this ridiculous situation!
2605:A000:FFC0:5F:F9BD:9D:B97C:57D4 (
talk) 02:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The article was given permanent protection in 2021 due to persistent, most likelly long-term vandalism. This is not some "ridiculous situation" that needs to be fixed, but rather a measure to hinder extensive vandalism. This will only change if an admin sees fit to lift the protection for some reason, which I personally hope does not happen.
Vif12vf/Tiberius (
talk) 03:44, 9 November 2023 (UTC)reply
A new discovery of a seal with a Khunnu tamga on the territory of Buryatia. It is necessary to insert
This new philological finding should be added to the Turkic languages section:
Recent research has revealed that in chapter 96 of the
Book of Han (Han-shu), entitled "Western Regions", the Xiong-nu gave the title "拊離 (fǔ-lí)" to a ruler of the Lesser
Wu-sun Kun-mo, a descendant of a Xiong-nu princess, who was killed in 30 BC as a result of a throne dispute. In chapter 50 of the
Tongdian, Chinese sources clearly define the meaning of "拊離 (fǔ-lí)" as "wolf". With this military-political title, the Wu-sun were declared the protector of the western region of the Xiong-nu territories. For the same reason, this title was given to the ruler of the western wing of the state in the
Gokturks,
Seljuks,
Khwarazmians,
Mongols and
Anatolian Turkish beyliks. In addition, the word "böri" is a word used in all
Turkic languages,
Mongolic languages,
Korean,
Japanese,
Manchu-
Tungus with the meaning of "wolf". These results may have revealed a connection with
Altaic languages, especially Turkic languages. ref: Çoban, Ramazan Volkan. (2023). Türk Mitolojisinde Kurt Kültü (Wolf Cult in Turkic Mythology). Mus: Alparaslan University Publishing.
Philosophia091 (
talk) 19:01, 23 December 2023 (UTC)reply