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Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyprus2k1 ( talk • contribs) 10:30, 25 October 2004 (UTC)
Also, pinyin naming conventions render three-character names as Familyname Firstgivencharactersecondgivencharacter rather than Familyname Firstgivencharacter Secondgivencharacter.
I'll consult what Chinese texts I have, to see if I can find the correct characters for the named individuals - then the romanization doesn't matter so much. -- Medains 12:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
I have finished formatting the Xingyiquan article from Wade-Giles into Pinyin (redirects included) but related articles (like Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Five Elements, etc.) still need work. Perhaps someone could do this if they have time?
I argue for Pinyin over Wade-Giles because it is the standard method of romanisation taught at all modern Mandarin schools and also within China itself.
The passage about Cao Ji Wu and the nineteenth century suggests that he taught the Dai family in that century - the only date I have for Cao Ji Wu is a tentative birth year of 1665. Perhaps that needs rewording to show that it was Li Luo Neng's (aka Li Neng Ran 1807-1888) fame in the nineteenth century that you're referring to. -- Medains 09:16, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Lineage and dates are very difficult to check, and though most acknowledge that Ma Yue-Li was the founder of the Henan branch - there might be some disagreement with the claim that Ji Long Feng = Shanxi and Cao Ji Wu = Hebei, without describing another student of Ji Long Feng it would seem odd that there could be a Shanxi branch at all. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter that much - but people can be odd when lineage and style-founders are concerned (That's why I just put names in "famous people" and didn't put any lineages in) -- Medains 09:16, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
There needs to be some section about the "8 Tigers", "An Shen Pao" and other famous sequences that don't necessarily fit into the other sections - there was a section on this but it was removed, why? -- Medains 09:16, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Wow, a reply! Ok sure, the Li Luo Neng passage needs rewording and the paragraph about the lineages needs a few qualifying statements. In other places I sacrificed content for the sake of flow. Sorry.
220.236.75.225
Initially I used "Schools" to describe the Shanxi/Hebei/Henan divergence because I didn't want to conflict with "Styles" which was previously used to describe the animal characters (Bear style, Monkey style, etc.)
There is inconsistency among us as to which term should be used...we should resolve this Tarkovsky
Difficult to resolve, but the term "school" and "style" are in common usage - any resolution would have to be argued with the next person to add something; Hebei style also has a number of possible interpretations, some use it to refer to a particular style others for any style that originated in Hebei. The clearest distinction would probably be to separate "family styles" (Song, Dai, Che, Shang etc..) from the more generic style terms (Shanxi, Hebei, Henan), and use schools to refer to actual training groups (such as Mike Patterson's school, or Tim Cartmell's Shenwu school). -- Medains 08:25, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
The difference between "school" and "style" is subtle but important. a school of martial arts is simply that, an independent system of instruction, and to found or be a member of a school does not necessitate an individual style. A style conotates a difference in excution of the art. Therefore, since the difference between Shanxi, Hebei and Hunan Xingyiquan is best described by the difference in form I propose we switch all references to style. VanTucky 18:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Quan is a general Chinese word and can mean "fighting", not specifically "boxing" or "fist". Chinese words are less precise than English words and admit a spectrum of meanings. Therefore, Xingyiquan is still accurate when considering weapons training.
Books on the subject seem to be split equally between using "xingyi" and "xingyiquan", I think it's reasonable to mention that the "quan" is not always used - and the weapons section seemed an appropriate point, so we could use "xingyi jian" instead of "xingyiquan jian" for instance. I'll add some more book references to the page when I get the chance -- Medains 08:25, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
For this reason, I tend to use the terms "branch" and "lineage" more often than "style," and rarely ever "school."
JFD 13:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Under the controversy section. Ambiguious meanings in Chinese characters describes a general problem within translation and linguistics, not a specific controversy within Xingyiquan itself. This deserves removal.
It's not merely a problem of translation - but a xingyi problem in specific. Since if it were a translation issue, you could get a language scholar to help - but the terms that are mostly difficult to translate are terms that refer specifically to fighting arts and have been dropped from language usage. For example, if the term "pommel" in English had fallen from our language - you would have to consult an expert on ancient English weaponry in order to translate the term to another language (and potentially an expert in ancient weaponry in your target language as well). The wider problem of translation is that the behaviour of translators when they come across these terms is inappropriate (but very common). I think it deserves to stay due to the need to explain WHY translations can be so different. -- Medains 11:42, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
One example of this (that I've just noticed) it one of the reasons why Beng is described as "crushing", when it doesn't really make sense when describing the technique - I originally added the character 弸 which (according to the oldest Chinese dictionary I have access to, Matthew’s Chinese English Dictionary (1943) ISBN 0674123506) means to hold a bow at full draw - and someone (I can't be bothered to go through all the edits to check who) changed it to 崩 which means to rupture, split apart or collapse (from the online Unihan dictionary http://www.unicode.org/charts/unihan.html - I don't have matthews to hand). Obviously, at some point, a translation has occured in which the double 月 character has been used as a key to find the "best fit" to translate the term - and it is not possible for us to tell at which point that took place and hence we cannot be certain which is "correct", except by experience and relating the meaning to the technique in question. (For the record, I prefer 弸 having experience of both xingyi and archery) This is one of the reasons why I left out the "crushing" and other one word terms and went for the more descriptive term. -- Medains 12:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
A final note on the subject of translating fighting texts in particular - see http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_kennedy_0202.htm which lists a number of difficulties for the translator, besides those of basic character identification. -- Medains 14:53, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Until reading this, I have only seen 崩, but I have to agree with Medains that from my experience in xingyiquan, 弸 is more appropriate. -- Qaexl Oct 28, 2006
Some more information on these texts and where the originals could be found would be helpful ----JESUS
The section in schools on this topic needs rewording. Currently, it seems to suggest that most xingyi practicioners would claim that Dai Family "style" is their ancestral style - I don't believe that that is the case. From what I have read, it would appear that the Dai Family "style" is that that has developed as a result of xingyi being taught within the family by Dai Long Bang (and descendants), though most practicioners would acknowledge the Dai connection in the lineage. Not sure how to go about rewriting it though. -- Medains 07:28, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that information provided on this page has been used by some schools to add credibility to their teaching - though their blantant reproduction of sections of wiki text gives them away. I shall be adding no further information to this article as a result. -- 195.92.70.130 11:16, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
It does seems somewhat unlikely that Guo Yunshen ever crossed hands with Dong Haichuan. The story has always been lacking detail and seemed a bit far-fetched to me. However, it is notable that Guo sent his then-student Sun Lutang to go train under Cheng Tinghua after Guo had taught Sun all of his Xingyiquan (See Sun Lutang's Xingyiquan Xue). It seems probable then that the first major contact between Hebei Xingyiquan and Baguazhang was through Cheng and Guo, since it appears that they knew eachother previously. I suppose all that we can know about their comparative skill is that Guo must have thought of Cheng as also being a great fighter. I think that Guo's temperament and attitude was such that if Cheng's skill did not match his own, he would not have sent Sun to him.
It's a common story (from students of both arts, though they disagree about the outcome!) and worth mentioning if only to refute it (as the Frantzis reference does) - the two were alive at the same time, and Guo at least travelled extensively, so it is possible that they met (though I agree that the story is quite far fetched). -- 195.92.70.130 11:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Why does this article refer to all of the above as "Xingyiquan?" Xinyiquan and Xinyiliuhequan practitioners wouldn't be too happy about this - practitioners agree that these three styles have the same "root," but the resulting styles are still considered different.
Not to mention, there is also Shaolin Xinyiba, as well as Yiquan, which are also related, but different styles. Edededed 02:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
"Xingyiquan" is also known as "Xinyiquan", but not "Xinyiliuhequan" - in what way do you think the article refers to XYLHQ? -- Medains 08:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
That's not correct Medians. Xinyiquan and Xinyi Liuhe Quan are both used to refer to the Ten Animals Hunan (muslim) style. My teacher and his use this term when formally refering to the style in contrast to others. But the pronunciation if Xinyi and Xingyi (and Hsing Yi as well) are all the same, they are just different romanizations. Google it or check the vids on YouTube if you are not convinced. VanTucky 18:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
From my very flawed understanding of this art, weren't the animal styles later added on by another master? I thought Yue Fei (as legend has it) created the five fists of xingyi but the animal portions where not added until the Qing Dynasty. ( !Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 16:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC))
On a certain martial arts website, one paragraph says:
- "The origins of this most ancient of Chinese systemized combative art forms [Xingyi] are unknown. Yueh attributed a wandering Taoist as his teacher whom had no traceable name. And the history of evolution of the art is sketchy at best, although it certainly does pre-date Yueh’s time frame. Some scholars believe the art should be dated at least as far back as the Liang Dynasty (550 A.D.) which is certainly possible. Likely the myth of creation is attributed to Yueh because it makes for a very nice story. The art is so sophisticated it likely was several generations in evolution to its complete form." [1]
If this statement is true, it shows Xingyi predated Yue Fei himself (just as many on this talk page have stated). ( !Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 20:49, 11 July 2006 (UTC))
At the same as we discredit the "wandering Taoist" as a possible source, the same should be said for the Shaolin Temple, which is too often attributed as a source for martial arts generally, though the Chinese most certainly had refined fighting systems well before Boddhidharma. Furthermore, the kind of spear fighting style which is noted as an origin for Xingyiquan would most likely have predated or been developped outside of the shaolin temple, whose monks were more noted for their prowess with staves than with spears. Pierre, 19 October 2006
I'm sure several of you know about Yue Fei's other boxing style "Yuejiaquan" or Yue Family boxing However, I have come across another boxing style which names Yue Fei as its creator. It is called Wuji Boxing. It sounds very similar to Xingyi. The list of martial styles attributed to Yue Fei is just dizzying. Yue Family boxing does sound like it was created by Yue fei. However, Xingyi, Wuji, and Liu He Ba Fa have strikingly similar techniques but are supposedly different styles. Its hard to believe what Yue Fei created. ( !Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 02:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC))
I added links to free online xingyi training videos. All are more or less 60 minutes long (Chinese only). They download very quickly and the quality is okay. However, I couldn't figure out how to activate the links on the main article. The only way to view the videos is to paste the link into your web browser and that's it. Free videos! They are from an online martial arts forum in China. I'm not sure what school of Xingyi they belong to. If someone can figure out a way to activate the links, go right ahead and do it. ( !Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 00:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC))
I'm not sure what school of Xingyi they belong to.
Note: Unless I see less videos than anyone else, the ones linked to from the article are not "xing yi", but "xin yi". The difference is significant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.237.221.89 ( talk) 11:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
The links to Taijiquan have been renamed into W-G form, there is quite a big debate on that pages discussion about the title of the page - however this page uses pinyin almost entirely and it seems odd to use W-G for just one term. Perhaps we can link using [[Tai Chi Chuan|Taijiquan]] instead to maintain the convention. -- Medains 08:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Whilst Dai Family doesn't have something that they call "Santishi", they do have "San Yuan Ju Yi" - which is a variation on the alignment principles that underly santishi. I have read that Dai Family practicioners claim that a nephew of DaiLongBang invented santishi. I must re-read my Henan Xingyi book to confirm or deny the santishi in that branch. -- Medains 11:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
As a practitioner of Henan (muslim) style Xingyi I can confirm that we DO use SanTi extensivley in both the forms and as zhan zhuang. I deleted the inclusion in the SanTi reference. VanTucky 21:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
We have Henan style Xinyi teachers in North America?
Sweet.
JFD 22:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The 'except for a low kick aimed at the shin' implies that it is the only kick in the art. My school includes crotch height kicks used in the dragon and horse forms, and a kick aimed at the shin in swallow is not the same as a kick aimed at heel height in chicken. Not sure whether to just remove this text or rewrite. -- Medains 08:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
In my school, the described stance is not "dragon body" - it's a forward weighted stance that still maintains the principles of "san ti" though it is not "san ti shi". Dragon body is just one of the six principles of all structures. This section also either needs rewrite citing that X school calls such a stance dragon body and probably moving to a "stances" section, or simple removal. -- Medains 08:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
that dragon body is a principle of structure is what I meant. the description is just muddled, which is why I asked for some clarification. But the articel really needs some more discussion of what Xingyi frame looks like and what the general body requirements are. please feel free to edit of course. VanTucky 19:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I have just added a large number of photos of the "Chicken-Saber Sickle" to my article. These weapons are considered the "special weapon" of Xinyi Liuhe boxing. Thank you to Dr. Stephen Yan and his student Mr. Dyer for supplying me with the photos. Check it out. ( !Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 03:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC))
sorry if I offended you, but almost nothing on wikipedia is "of course". you know what happens when we assume... VanTucky 01:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone associated with the Muslim Chinese martial arts article has written a stub about Liu He Quan. Actually the stub is about Xinyi Liu He Quan, they just named it wrong. I wikified the article the other day, per the request, but it does not cover any more material than what is already stated on this page.
I merged the pages together. ( Ghostexorcist 20:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC))
Where has Xingyiquan spread to? Where are it's major centers of practice? Where are it's Head Quarters on Different Continents? Tkjazzer 23:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
"Guo Yunshen 郭雲深 Listed as student of Li Luoneng. From Hebai province. An important Xingyi legend reports him as having been incarcerated for killing a man, and when confined to a prison cell only being able to practice Beng quan."
Shouldn't Beng quan be linked to another wikipedia article since it is not listed anywhere else in the article? What is Beng quan? Tkjazzer 23:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I've made some stylistic improvements based on some WP:MOS guidelines (including extending the lead, which was really hard). I thought about chopping out the "In fiction" section entirely, as per discussion and related guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Martial_Arts. But thought that it was worth discussion first. Also, can anyone thinkg of a better title for the wushu and sino-japanese paragraphs than "Modern XYQ" since repeating "XYQ" in a subtitle is poor stylistically. -- Medains 15:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
The reason why we have "famous figures" and not "lineage" is because there is disagreement between sources on the "correct" lineage, and it's not really an article that would benefit from a lineage diagram. This table shouldn't become a lineage in a different format. So I propose a trimming of famous figures.
We've got a whole bunch of famous figures, most of which don't have their own article - and only have listed "Student of X" in the note. These should be cut down to those who a) have their own article, b) are attributed with founding one of the branches or styles, c) founders of other martial arts, d) have a reason for their fame explained in the note or e) have text about them elsewhere in the article.
After editors have had a chance to establish notability of these figures, I shall have a cull. -- Medains 09:35, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
The information on Sun Lu Tang is wrong. He was formally a disciple of Li Kuiyuan (李魁元) and a long time students of his grand-teacher Guo Yun Shen. Probably Li Cun Yi and Li Kui Yuan got mixed up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.195.214.63 ( talk) 20:24, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
You'll note that xingyiquan sits in the "striking" focus of the navbox - I propose moving it to the "mixed and varied" section due to the emphasis on weapons. Any objection before I go through with that? -- Medains 20:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Let's not discuss where other arts should be here, since editors of those arts articles may not read this - the current count seems to be supporting : Medains Edededed Bradford44, opposed : VanTucky. Any more for any more?
The addition of Sun Da Fa to the Famous Figures list looks like an attempt to promote a certain teacher rather than the adding of an important figure. The only information given is his article (and in what I can find online) is that Sun is supposedly a master of qigong and teches xingyi (along with other arts), but nothing that suggests that he is more important than any of the many other modern-day teachers of these arts, much less the historically important people included in the list. For now I'm deleting this, though I will be following Sun's article to see if any more information is given. Ergative rlt ( talk) 19:45, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
i have not seen, in any other source, the assertion that ma xue li was a muslim. it s a really interesting detail, so i added a citation needed tag to it, because it would be really nice to know where the author read/heard this from. Cleobolus ( talk) 06:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I would like to substitute Wudang chuan for the Neijia link in the beginning of this article. Wudang is more appropriate for the way the martial arts of China are dichotomized; also, there is another martial arts called "Neijiaquan" that can be confusing. We can add another sentence that describes how XingYiquang is also grouped as Neijia, but that this is a more broad term which includes all of the "internal arts." Does anyone have a problem with this ? I have a good reference from Sun Lu Tang's "Xing Yi Quan Xue." Also, the tai chi chuan pages exhausts the argument of using the Wade-Giles spelling of chuan over quan. I have put a lot of work into the Wudang chuan page, and followed the lead from the tai chi chuan page (in short, this English encyclopedia should make best use of recognizable terms; Wade-Giles is the English translation...) TommyKirchhoff ( talk) 16:31, 15 April 2010 (UTC)