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I'm about to drop a big edit that's mostly rearrangement of material. I tried to make the demographics section less of a data dump, and I pulled a lot out of the disparity section that wasn't about disparity per se. Most of that ended up in a section about women's genre preferences. Hopefully no one flips their lid. Rhoark ( talk) 03:49, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
If you want have it done properly, list BRIEFLY the actually notable figures, such as Roberta Williams, Amy Hennig, Corrinne Yu, Jane Jensen, Rieko Kodama, Lorelei Shannon, Yoko Shimomura, and so on. Women who worked on well known games and are well known. Not some random Lebanese woman nobody heard of. Also, do it briefly. -- AggressiveNavel ( talk) 16:39, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I just saw your "There was originally no coverage of individual women in the article at all. This changed in October 2013 when User:152.33.61.191 added subsections on the 5 individuals we currently see in the article. I have no idea why Roberta Williams wasn't given a bigger subsection. Frankly the whole idea of spotlighting a handful of particularly notable women seems like it might be a mistake. There will always be disagreements about who are the most important individuals in any field." It's MISLEADING, useless, and bloating the article like hell. I've deleted it but someone reverted me. It needs to be deleted, until a short list of actually notable individuals can be compiled, the best would be if they were just listed and noted who they are (being a writer, programmer, artist, composer, and so forth). Obviously, only those who are having articles of their own, as they're notable for Wikipedia. -- AggressiveNavel ( talk) 17:04, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Here are also a few more: http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow/story/263815/the-feminine-side-of-game-design-10-female-game-designers With just these and those I've already mentioned you can quickly make a list of more than a dozen to replace the current mess, then note this list is only partial, and have it done for now. -- AggressiveNavel ( talk) 17:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
And here are some executive types: http://fortune.com/2014/09/23/10-powerful-women-video-games/ and http://files.tested.com/photos/2014/11/23/71050-women-in-gaming-b22gwdhiqaehxrw.jpg for more content creators (most of them have articles). -- AggressiveNavel ( talk) 17:34, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
And of course nothing comes out of it as always and this section is going remain there until the fall of fossil fuels based civilization. GG Wikipedia editors. -- 185.34.28.184 ( talk) 14:04, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Can we add these?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.140.107 ( talk) 00:52, 26 December 2015
I was searching through my stash of 90s EGM issues and came across an article on this subject. Looks like a strong source so I scanned it: image album. Citation: {{cite journal | last=Fielder | first=Lauren | date=September 1998 | issue=110 | title=Hurry Up and Die... So I Can Play |journal=[[Electronic Gaming Monthly]] | pages=130-133, 136, 137 }}. Interesting read—hope it's useful. JimmyBlackwing ( talk) 02:06, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
This section is American-centric. Recommend reframing this section (and article, actually), to be more global in scope. Aolivex ( talk) 21:35, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
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"Female participation in gaming is increasing. According to a Entertainment Software Association survey, women players in the United States increased from 40% in 2010 to 48% in 2014. Today, despite the dominant perception that most gamers are men,[4] the ratio of female to male gamers is balanced, mirroring the population at large." See, the problem I have with this is that it includes things such as mobile games. Also, the word "gamer" as self-identification does not mean that's how it is. Fact remains that, on average, men ARE more "hardcore" in gaming and DO game more often. The big difference is what kind of games are included. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) ( talk) 20:16, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
This is a widely-held belief, but I think most of it rests on empirical evidence. That's not to say that it's not true, but for the purposes of this article we'd need evidence in the form of reliable source reports that conclude as much. A breakdown of female interest/participation in the various video game genres might make an interesting subsection, and a few words about the hardcore-vs-casual divide might be appropriate if properly sourced, but I would avoid emphasizing that since those are ultimately subjective terms and because they are prone to pejorative labeling. - Thibbs ( talk) 11:58, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I noticed a banner denoting tone issues in the "Women in Video Game Streaming" section. While it won't fix every issue, I believe it would help to shorten the second paragraph about Geneviève Forget into a single sentence. As it stands, the paragraph takes attention away from the topic of streaming, instead focusing on another topic: Forget's life. I propose shortening the paragraph to: Geneviève Forget, a video game streamer, states in a Kotaku interview that "Harassment does happen in my stream chat from time to time that people start discussing my appearance but it really isn't the focus on my stream. I'd like to think people come back to watch it because it is quite entertaining and I try to interact with the chat as much as possible." [1] NothingAboutFlowers ( talk) 18:22, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Not sure if this is within the scope of the article, but I read an article yesterday about a president of a video game company (who is male) complaining that the Tokyo Game Show looks too much like a hostess club, full of scantily-dressed beautiful women trying to lure visitors to company booths. The article was in Japanese, but if this is the place to include such information, I can provide links and translations. I'll post a similar message at the game show's talk page too. AtHomeIn神戸 ( talk) 00:27, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I am a student and through the rest of this semester, I will be working on edits to this article. Some of the ideas for editing this article was to add the controversies of #Gamergate and the events leading up to it. Also, I would like to talk about the harassment of female developers and women that play the video games. If there is any questions, please feel free to contact me through on Wikipedia. Would be interested in your feedback. Wanderlust1138 ( talk) 01:18, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I'm a student and as a project we are making edits to Wikipedia pages over various topics, mine as you may have guessed is Women and Video Games. I'm new to this but excited to participate! Feel free to contact me through Wikipedia. I'm looking forward to hearing any constructive criticisms you may have about my edits. O Roman O ( talk) 01:16, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
I have a possible entry to make, but I'd like some opinions on it before I do. League of Legends is one of the most popular games in the world and one of the most-watched esports in competitive gaming. Maria "Remi" Creveling, was the first female player to take part in the League Championship Series (LCS), but she does have one X and one Y chromosome (is trans) so I'm not sure. With so few female gamers who make it competitively though I couldn't think of any other reason she wouldn't have already been added. Here's what I want to post:
League of Legends player Maria (Sakuya) Creveling, who at the time was known as Remilia or (Remi), finished first in the 2015 Challenger Series Summer Split along with her teammates Renegades which qualified the team for the 2016 NA LCS Spring Split. She became both the first female and also the first transgender player to compete professionally in the North America League Championship Series (NA LCS). She joined Renegades as their support player, but stepped down three weeks into the 2016 NA LCS Spring Split due to anxiety issues. O Roman O ( talk) 12:56, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
I placed it as an update to the Women in Competitive Gaming Section. O Roman O ( talk) 02:02, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
I have just made an addition to the Historical prevalence sub topic. This edit is to show the historical importance of one of the first majorly successful games created specifically with girls as the target audience. There had been games for girls before but none had seen much success until 1997, when Mattel, Inc. released Barbie Fashion Designer. Within its first two months this game sold over 500,000 copies, outstripping such industry megaliths as "Doom" and "Quake," demonstrating that interactive media aimed specifically at girls might have strong market appeal O Roman O ( talk) 02:10, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
within the first year, this game sold over 600,000 copies". In the Wikipedia article you've written "
Within its first two months this game sold over 500,000 copies". The source isn't bad (i.e. it's not unreliable), but I do worry that the text you've added may be more about the historical sales figures for a specific game rather than a demographic snapshot of the prevalence of women playing video games. Almost all of the other bullet points reflect surveys and studies on the percentages of women engaging with different kinds of gaming (arcade gaming, console gaming, computer gaming, etc.) instead of sales figures for individual games. I would support adding that information to the article on Barbie Fashion Designer if it existed but, seeing as it doesn't, I think the first step should be to create an article on that topic instead. If need be we could also add a note on it in the prose of a section like " Genre preferences", but I think it would be best to have a proper article on the topic (i.e. Barbie Fashion Designer) to link first. - Thibbs ( talk) 03:56, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I've just added 2016 ratios of international gamer demographics under the survey data category in Demographics of Female Players. There were many European countries I couldn't find any new information on because from what I can tell not all of these countries are updated frequently, but I still added what is currently available. I'm still pretty new to Wikipedia, and I was wanting to add the 2016 ratios to the right of the 2012 ratios. Would anyone with the know how re-position it for me please. O Roman O ( talk) 22:27, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
The Survey Data in the Demographics of Female Players data pertaining to Asian countries from source 17173 looks very unreliable. The link leads this article: https://www.techinasia.com/what-country-has-the-most-gamer-girls in which the author C. Custer states "I’m not sure exactly how 17173 compiled this data, and it seems pretty unlikely that they conducted a rigorous scientific study." Looking into it myself I found that the website is in Chinese, with google translate I couldn't find any statistics or research. Maybe if I could read it I would be able to find it but I'm doubtful. I also couldn't find anything online anywhere backing up these statistics. In fact the ESA, which is a very reliable source, reported demographics for as the USA 55% male and 45% female and not 42% for females which makes me question the whole chart's accuracy. If there's anyone who could find another source or who could confirm the reliability of the website 17173 that would be great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by O Roman O ( talk • contribs) 22:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
The source for the newly added "Women in the game industry" table falls short of what is required for encyclopedic uses. At its core the source is decent enough - Mimi Okabe's keynote address from the Replaying Japan 2016 conference. But what we should be citing is the keynote (via Template:Cite conference), not a random German blog that talks about the keynote. The blog is not a reliable source. At best we might add a note to the cite like "images of the conference available at j-junk blog". And we shouldn't be citing an unofficial translation of any German source when the original German is available. Non-English sources are allowed per WP:NONENG and a Google translation would certainly not be "of equal quality" to the original.
But if we look deeper we see that Okabe's sources for her figures are listed in the image we're apparently using for the cite. These are:
Better than citing the keynote and providing a table with figures whose origins are hard to trace, we should probably track down the original sources Okabe was using and cite those. We can use those cites to pincite each figure in the table and then per WP:SWYGT we can cite the keynote for the table as a whole. I've started trying to track down the sources and here is what I have so far:
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link)There's a good chance that any of the sources we nail down but are unable to obtain can be requested at WP:RX.
Then the table should be expanded to include the date from which the figure is taken. Without adequate context it is difficult to recognize that some of the figures we are presenting for comparison are taken from two different countries at dates separated by a half a decade. In some sectors of the tech industry this kind of information is of central significance. Remember that in 2005 the iPhone did not exist and the GameCube and PS2 were Nintendo's and Sony's most advanced consoles. Things often change quickly in tech. As this Wikipedia article develops we will probably want to move further from Okabe's specific figures and sources and toward more current figures and sources. But I think the most important thing to keep in mind when making these kinds of cross-country comparisons is that to the greatest extent possible the dates associated with the figures should be contemporaneous rather than spanning half-decades.
So... I've moved the table into storage (below) for now with the intention that it should be re-added soon after we've done a little more research work. I am rather busy off-wiki these days and I would appreciate some help in tracking down these sources and in re-formatting the table. But I'll do it myself if necessary. Cheers, - Thibbs ( talk) 14:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC) [Updated: - Thibbs ( talk) 13:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC)] [Updated again: - Thibbs ( talk) 15:29, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
links.-- Crossswords ( talk) 10:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
archiving the text here temporarily | ||||||||||||
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The following table shows the proportion of women among game developers in several countries in 2005 to 2010. [1]
References
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The intro currently says "... females have been found to make up about half of all gamers", and then goes on to talk about "advocates for increasing the number of female gamers". Unless these advocates think that females should comprise more than half of all gamers, this seems contradictory. I'm sure there's a good reason for this situation (perhaps these advocates are talking about PC gamers as opposed to mobile gamers or something), but at the moment the introduction is confusing. Ornilnas ( talk) 14:53, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
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https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/gaming-generally-not-harmful-for-boys-may-affect-girls-social-skills-study-1.4391348 SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 11:29, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
Kotaku anecdotes need to be replaced by some proper content like data and statistics. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 19:37, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
As men make up at least half of all gamers, surely there should be one as well? An alternative would renaming this article, and making it non-gynocentric. Already it covers some of the subject, like with various statistics regarding the distribution by sex. There's in fact en entire category /info/en/?search=Category:Women_and_video_games and yet there's no /info/en/?search=Category:Men_and_video_games too. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 14:35, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
Even lots of this very article as for right now covers men too, just only gynocentric way. For example "Historical prevalence" section is about men just as much as women, as is most of "Genre preferences". Of course males are surely being studied, as they compromise over half of the market. Btw, what is the sex distribution regarding WHO's allleged gaming disorder? And my second proposal was to just rename this article in a sex-neutral way, and then rewrite it accordingly. And of course parity is impossible in some ways, such as "In December 2015, Kayla "Squizzy" Squires became the first female Call of Duty player to turn professional" I don't think the first professional male Cod player can be identified. Gender representation in video games does an okay-ish job in being non-discriminatory (not perfect as female characters still are discussed about 3-4 times more than male, despite being less numerous, and despite male characters being overwhelmingly subjects of violence it they don't even have a corresponding section "Violence against men" at all). -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 15:14, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
And as i told you, even this article in the current state right now is also about men. But it's named only after women. So something like Sex differences among gamers would be more fitting and non-discriminatory. Or perhaps Men and women in video gaming. Etcetera. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 19:01, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
(also the title super reminds me of "where's International Men's Day?" posts. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 03:11, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
"The article is written to discuss the disparity and the prioritization of men over women" by completely ignoring the men and 100% prioritizing the women? Is that really what you meant to say?
Again, there's no corresponding article (and no corresponding category) to discuss the majority of gamers and game developers (both historically and currently). But there's no need to make them (and just repeating all the statistics), just to rename the existing ones to be inclusive and non-discriminatory.
It can also cover the games designed for men and boys, just as it now covers the games for (and often by) women and girls. "See also: Non-violent video game § Gender perspective" can be now how males like violent games, and why. It's all just the other side of ying & yang, interconnected.
And for example see this:
There are both genders involved and covered even in this very recent report, showing how supposedly "sexualized" female characters cause women players to sexually harass male players. (And right now, the article talks only about how "Although some of the population of male gamers have been the source of harassment towards female gamers and over-sexualization of the characters" - which is oddly states, is "the population of male gamers have been the source of ... over-sexualization of the characters" about mods?)
The International Men's Day indeed does exist just like Women's (Wikipedia: "focusing on men's and boys' health, improving gender relations, promoting gender equality, and highlighting male role models"). I'm confused were you just not aware because in Poland we celebrate it 'even' in schools but I don't know about yours, or were you just trying to be ironic but I seriously don't understand how or why. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 06:02, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Why is there no article men and video games?" The answer is because nobody has written the article. If you can find reliable sources sufficient to support such an article then please feel free to create it. If you are too busy to do it yourself you might consider making a request at WP:VG/R. - Thibbs ( talk) 13:18, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
I changed very early to turning this article sex-neutral, if I really must repeat myself again. And if I really must repeat myself, this article already covers men - for example, covering every kind of preferences according to the sex, it's this percentage of men and this of women, and it's all in the article right now. Do I really need to repeat myself repeatedly? I said once "An alternative would renaming this article, and making it non-gynocentric. Already it covers some of the subject, like with various statistics regarding the distribution by sex." and then "And my second proposal was to just rename this article in a sex-neutral way, and then rewrite it accordingly." and then "But there's no need to make them (and just repeating all the statistics), just to rename the existing ones to be inclusive and non-discriminatory.", what wasn't clear about it so I have to repeat it for the 4th time now? Or actually 5th time, because I wrote "And as i told you, even this article in the current state right now is also about men. But it's named only after women. So something like Sex differences among gamers would be more fitting and non-discriminatory" too (where as "I told you" was because I was already repeating myself).
Just take a look at every table/graph and many statistics, the men are already being covered as we speak. And so again as I apparently need to repeat myself without end to get any sort of point through all of table/graphs in the article are primarily about the differences between men and women. To cite the captions: "DSA/ESA-reported USA female to male gamer ratios per platform"; "ESAC-reported Canadian female to male gamer ratios"; "International comparison of gamer gender ratios"; :"The study reported the following proportions of gamers within a genre are women or men:"; "According to data collected by Quantic Foundry in 2016, the primary motivations why people play video games differ, on average, by gender. While men frequently want most to compete with others and destroy things, women often want most to complete challenges and immerse themselves in other worlds:".
The word "men" already appears 33 times, and the word "male" 44 times. It's already about men, it's just not presented as such.
And do you people really imply "The treatment or perceived view of men in [ sic] video games is insignificant"? Despite being the historical and current majority - insignificant? I do know the Western society is gynocentric, but this is just absurd. Anyway, it's not "in games" here (as opposed to other articles, already sex neutral), it's about people playing games, and more precisely about the sex differences. I have no idea what the "pushing a single POV" was supposed to be about, and what's more I'm not even interested. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 19:41, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
It's funny, because I'm here against a "blatant POV push" and making it just sex-neutral. Btw, I just checked one caption for truth and found it false: "Video gaming (comprises PC and Console gaming)[b]" claiming 50%. In reality, it's also about mobile phones ("mobile devices"). See the reference yourself: http://theesa.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/ESAC18_BookletEN.pdf And this too is also about men (around half of the sex-related statistics in this pdf are about the preferences of men, as opposed to the preferences of women, because the men are apparently "significant" after all). For example: "64% of of female gen x gamers most often play on their mobile device" & "54% of female millennial gamers most often play on their mobile device", as opposed to men who mostly use computers or consoles. Th graph, due to the false caption, is a wiki-hoax. And I didn't even fact check anything else! SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 20:22, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
Koncorde: This article should be turned into as you called "People in video games", or perhaps redirected into Women are wonderful effect (like this article apparently presents them as only helpless victims of harassment by only men and never mentions any harassment by women of anyone - with such writing as "population of male gamers have been the source of harassment", despite how we know women for example conduct half of sexist harassment of other women on Twitter: [1] and of course some women harass men too).
Anyway, here's Roberta Williams in 1988 talking about why most women were not interested in video games: [2] which of course had nothing to do with harassment and all to do with sex differences (to quote Roberta, "girls need extra push" which was because they are "are mostly uncomfortable with technical things"). What changed most of all by now is the popularity of easy-to-use and affordable smartphones used by anyone, and the free-to-play games, many of them specifically targeting female demographics (match 3, hidden objects, and so forth - the article's own charts show it). Btw, the lie "Video gaming (comprises PC and Console gaming)[b]" that was mostly about phones in case of women was not corrected by you, after you instead spent your time making a snarky reply to me instead of correcting the article. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 14:00, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
That's not anecdotes. Here's also another historical piece on the nsex differences, "Why Women Don't Play Video Games": [3] I can provide large numbers of similar articles and interviews that have nothing to with the lead's "Sexism in video gaming, including sexual harassment, as well as underrepresentation of women as characters in games" (the latter also unrelated - the article happens to include a screnshot from Roberta William's own King's Quest with a caption "King's Quest games woo women with adventure and romance" showing a male protagonist). There's nothing about anyone "harassing" anyone, and there's no "sexism" anywhere there neither- other than here in the deitorial: [4] where the editor Gina Smith (yes, a woman) calls the "sexism" ("sexism" being in quote marks) accusations a "baloney" and repeats what is and really should be just obvious: "Basically, women aren’t as gadget crazy as guys; they generally prefer socializing to sitting in front of a PC all night long; they’re less interested in blood and gore; and their competitive instincts don’t find an outlet in besting a machine. Admittedly, women buy only a tiny percentage of computer games, but so what?". And again (because you proved everything needs to be repeated to you people here), I can bring you many of such articles and interviews (also with for example Japanese designers like Rieko Kodama denying "sexism" in Japan as well). (This actually goes beyond just this article and into the ones such as Sexism in video gaming.) Anyway - it's all about sex differences (aka gender differences, for those who believe in John Money's concepts). And since I REALLY need to repeat literally everything, here's a repetition: [5] - mobile phones are "mobile devices". I knew the claim of "50% PC and console gamers now" had to be a false when I saw it, checked the source (which almost no one reading or even editing ever does for anything ever), and of course it was false, not surprising me at all. Here's about Smith, btw: Gina Smith (author) (for Williams, since I need to repeated everything: Roberta Williams - actually one of the creators of the American computer game industry). SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 15:33, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
"actually not supported by the source" - apparently: I really needed to do it: [8] (200 hrs in ms paint) SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 17:59, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
I have a "personal distaste" for a false narrative, yes. Come and give me some historically acclaimed Japanese or any other video game creator claiming to having ever been a victim of sexism. Not any failures and/or professional victims, but for example anyone from [9] (you can check their articles as of their achievements). Or at least until recently, discounting for example the rumors of Amy Hennig (in the picture) being "forced" out from ND by the self-proclaimed male-feminists Druckmann and Straley ( [10]). I don't see in this collection, also because I don't even think she has public photos online, but for example also Kinu Nishimura - whose Wikipedia article here was written by me. "Oversexualised" is something that doesn't exist objectively, just as "undersexualized" doesn't. There's a good reason why the article oversexualization doesn't exist. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 18:12, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
I also checked and it's that. Her thread only got likes (but no replies) after [13] retweeted to her thread in English (and he's still got plenty more likes than she died, in fact about 5 times more). While her other thread got basically no engagement: [14] when he didn't link to it for English speakers / Westerners. So it's a scandal-making / scandal-story in the West while in Japan it's not. There were no collaborating stories or just anything. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 21:23, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
And it actually made me thinking about something, which you don't have in the article - women having children. There's a lot of it and it's not all the same: Williams actually having been a mother housewife before she got into the computers and gaming. The genius-programmer Corrinne Yu actually working with her baby literally attached to her chest. That story you just shared. That's all an interesting perspective actually. And it's very specifically "Women" as men for one can't get pregnant (obviously). SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 21:40, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
And my second proposal was to just rename this article in a sex-neutral way, and then rewrite it accordingly– sounds like Theseus' paradox: once you rename the article and then rewrite it to suit the new title, what remains of the original article? It sounds like what you really want is to make this article go away; in that case, better start at WP:AFD. But I think you're barking up the wrong tree; article titles don't have to be "sex-neutral" at all. Should we also rename and rewrite Women's sports as Men's and women's sports? (Short answer: no. For the long answer, see Wikipedia:Systemic bias as well as the the recent discussion on the proposed WikiProject Men.) Rather than impose a pre-existing viewpoint on reliably sourced content, Neutral point of view just means we represent sources fairly, without adding our own bias. If sources choose to focus on women in video games, that's just too bad. I'll also repeat what others have suggested, namely, if sources exist for an article about men in video games, feel free to be bold and write it. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 21:59, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
My comment on International Men's Day, @ SNAAAAKE!!:, was to compare your post to those of people complaining about its absence (even when it is entirely not). Basically, I'm saying that your claim is disingenuous and you appear to be making these points less out of a desire to improve the article as much as disrupt it. Also, I never claimed that I "wanted to" write an article that excludes men. I'm writing what the RSes say. If you want to make a comparable article, then do it. You often complain about absence of articles, so I would like to see you do more and actually put this into action. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 04:56, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
EDIT: Did you honestly just try to position Roberta Williams as a monolith of women in games? Like, why is her perspective more valid than women in games who have said that they left the industry because of harassment? - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 04:59, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
i moved my response down. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 07:53, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
2002 Rieko Kodama interview from Edge
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Which female lead characters in videogames do you respect? I respect many female lead characters. Lulu from Final Fantasy X particularly impresses me. Have you ever felt persecuted for working in the videogames industry because of your gender? I have never felt such thing. Of course, I can't speak for other female creators in the industry. As a female creator, I have never experienced any discrimination or disgraceful behaviour towards me at all. This may be because I'm single so I have never had to deal being married and having a baby to take care of while working. How acceptable is it for women to play videogames in Japan? I don't think is a problem of gender. Every day I witness both men and women enjoying games. Japanese society disapproves more of those who play too much and neglect the other key elements of everyday life, such as relationships, sleeping, and eating. What proportion of Japanese videogame players are females? I think, on average, there are 10 and 20 per cent of females playing videogames in Japan. It all depends on the genre: you may actually get more 20 per cent if you studied the RPG, horror and adventure genre demographics. With more and more girls playing games what do you think needs to change if videogames are to become socially acceptable for women by other women? I fervently believe there is a need to create themes, graphics, and systems that appeal particularly to the female user. I don't currently have precise ideas how to achieve that, I think it would be great to have more female creators in the industry. They would bring new ideas and would facilitate attracting a wider female audience. (It's now done with hidden objects, etc. From the Polish game designer Adrian Chmielarz more recently about it: https://medium.com/@adrianchm/women-and-video-games-f0eb7a7d75fa - notes hidden objects are also mostly made by women for women, with female sensibilities all through.) In your game Skies of Arcadia you assembled a primarily female team. Was this a conscious decision and, if so, why? I never ended the development team to be comprised mostly of female members and this is still not my intention now. But thinking about it, looking back into my games career, I sense I'vs always had !he need to impress the feminine touch as often as possible. I think this makes my games appeal beyond the hardcore gamers to a much wider audience. So in that sense, it may look like there are I try to build games that everybody, including myself, would enjoy. (I don't this article even really attempts to differentiate between the causal gamers and the hardcore gamers? Especially since it's includes these Canadian statistics defining someone as a "gamer" if they as much as play a video game once in a month. I see "casual" only being mentioned as a "negative stereotype" of female gamers, even as it's true in most cases, and as such it's a fact - "negative" or not.) What do you think is currently restricting the development and use of electronics in general by women? Personally, since I began in this industry, my career has been very smooth in this respect, so I have not felt any restriction due to my gender. From my perspective there is no creator gender problem. Its all about users. You make games because you like them and because you want to share your creations with users. They would enjoy them, would be surprised, excited or feel comfortable. So you are able to feel that them is no problem in your game-making process and you would feel no limits. In the past there were only a few female creators so it may have looked like we needed to fix that. In reality, nowadays [2002], there are many female programmers in Japan so one doesn't feel the old impression of imbalance between the sexes. (Edge 78, p. 79.) SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 19:09, 29 June 2019 (UTC) |
I'm no longer "quote farming out of contest" or whatever that was claimed. Rieko Kodama's article, which I don't edit at all, claims in its lead, with links here:
"In this regard, she is often asked for her thoughts on the relationship between women and video games. Kodama believes that more women are gradually taking an interest in gaming culture because they are growing up around them more as young girls. While she does not design games strictly for female audiences, she designs characters that are appealing to both men and women and avoids including elements that treat women unfairly."
The links go to the article that claims things that go directly against anything she ever said about the subject (in many interviews), claiming it's onw lead:
"Sexism in video gaming, including sexual harassment, as well as underrepresentation of women as characters in games, is an increasing topic of discussion in video game culture. Advocates for increasing the number of female gamers stress the problems attending disenfranchisement of women from one of the fastest-growing cultural realms as well as the largely untapped nature of the female gamer market. Efforts to include greater female participation in the medium have addressed the problems of gendered advertising, social stereotyping, and the lack of female video game creators (coders, developers, producers, etc.)"
As seen above:
And she enjoys and respects and is impressed by what the article claims as "sexist practices such as the oversexualization of female characters" like famously sexual Lulu. She surely herself participated in "sexist practices such as the oversexualization of female characters" in at least some people's standard of "oversexualization" (and not even limited to types such as as religiously conservative Muslims or Amishes). And btw: I once planned to make some articles about her characters, but after what happened to my articles such as Lulu's (but not only), I say fuck that, because you people just don't value my work at all. In fact, they were being destroyed precisely because they were mine, and openly so. So I only update my old character articles that exist.
Btw, this picture here of the JP girls in an arcade, illustrating the lead's narrative? I just remembered I placed it here, many years ago.
Adrian Chmielarz's article about the truth about "women in video games" (and the "untapped market" that is absolutely tapped by now) is actually titled "women and video games". ( [15]) It's the kind of something that should be replacing some random blogger's stupid listicle and any other crap like that, which I didn't even check. (The article " Sexism in video games" at first glance appears to be entirely garbage, even horribly written in just all ways possible.) This and my other sources I showed you, which are just sample sources and (repesting my repaeting of repeating, because i must in these communications) I can provide many many many like that. Really many. I could easily write a book about it if I wanted. (Maybe I should.)
I still think it should be turned into an article covering both sexes and the differences between them in making and playing games. It doesn't need to be 50/50 or anything like that. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 20:19, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm saying that, as her article claims without my input: "In this regard, she is often asked for her thoughts on the relationship between women and video games" (and there even a "main" template below in hers there also leading here), she's
Also she's not alone in that, as I already showed you, and it was just only samples.
Also the article shouldn't been written so blatantly female-centric (including the title) but doesn't need to be 50/50 or anything like that. Making another one is senseless because it would be largely a fork repeating most of the statistics, or needlessly having different statistics on the same subjects. Like Gender representation in video games (not like it's a well written article, but I now mean just the approach) is not "Representation of women in video games". SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 21:53, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Btw, regarding the ridiculous and horrible article Sexism in video games, video games are again singled out to be attacked as something uniquely evil in the world, even while there's no Sexism in films (or by any other name) despite Sexual abuse in Hollywood (not appearing in no film-related categories) and so forth. There's also no Sexism in literature, no Sexism in music, nor any other form of media / entertainment industry. -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 18:03, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
NOTFORUM
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(For Bryn in the previous section) Women's sports are segregated by sex due to sex differences (and yes, I did propose to change this article here I mean "Women and video games" to be about SEX DIFFERENCES too). If they weren't, there wouldn't be "women in sports" practically at all, because they wouldn't be able to compete. Video games are different as they're much less physical, and so occasionally women are entirely capable to compete with men - for example, see my article Kayane (but still if you look at her table, it's still often in sex-segregated matches). It's not about a non-existing hypothetical women's esports anyway (by which I mean a hypothetical corresponding article, because women's esports as I mentioned with Kayane's record do exist alright), which wouldn't anywhere so negative. Singling video games as evil would be like making Violence in video games in the style of " Sexism in video games", despite no game ever containing actual violence (unlike many traditional/real sports) and violence at video game events being vanishingly rare (only very recently first deaths happened when a single autistic Jewish kid shot a bunch of black people at a Madden tournament, as opposed to many events like for example Port Said Stadium riot that included large numbers of killers and the activities like football should be really scrutinized for violence that in just my country killed many people and it's customary for young people to join football gangs to physically fight each other and while there is violence in sports there's no sexism in sports too, as only video games are "sexist"). These anti-video-game hysteria as something uniqely evil and harmful about nothing is very very weird as it's one of the most innocent things possible, given the just enormous popularity of video games. I never tried "to position Roberta Williams as a monolith of women in games, what? When I told you i can give you many similar articles and interviews, i meant the ones with various figures (and even in this very thread here is Kodama, which was also just a sample). I'll make the article and it will suffer the fate of Lulu's and many others, thank you very much. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) And so I just learnt Violence in video games DOES exist, despite no video game ever having violence "in" it (only depictions of violence, almost always of fictional violence with few exceptions such as Batman using a picture of dead Russian diplomat who was a victim of actual violence, before it was removed [16] ,but it's not in the article because it's about make-believe pseudo-violence without calling it "fantasy violence" or "fictional violence"). See, that's what I talk about. Violence in sports, here the violence is real. I myself having never any interest in sports at all was randomly surrounded by a pack of sports fans who talked like if they're going to beat me up for being a fan of a rival club despite my denials, but turned about they were only joking about it and having their "fun" to terrify people, but every year people are getting killed and they attack each other with machetes and such. Never EVER anything like that happened to anyone regarding esports teams and yet there's this hysteria about "violence" in video games just as the one about "sexism". SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 07:43, 2 July 2019 (UTC) Sexual harassment in the military - it involves things like rapes, no one was ever raped in video games. I mean, just never. Not in the industry, not at any events. Compare it to the article's, to quite, "many recruits of both sexes and from the age of 15 had been repeatedly sexually abused by older recruits between 1967 and 1971, including by anal gang rape, and in some cases young recruits had been forced to rape each other". But the mass media mass hysteria about NOTHING in video games has results like this TV show episode showing gangs of gamers actually raping women (and trying to kill cops and more) that was "ripped from the headlines". SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 07:53, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
Koncorde: No, I didn't "purposely omit that, or did you forget" about David Katz, as always you just can't read what I write. If you scroll above, you will find my: "(only very recently first deaths happened when a single autistic Jewish kid shot a bunch of black people at a Madden tournament, as opposed to many events like for example Port Said Stadium riot that included large numbers of killers)." PLEASE read what I write, especially before insinuating about me like that. Arbyn: Regarding the maliciousness of "tweets" and such, you can also find my story where a group of football club fans surrounded me to pretend (it was their "joke") they are going to kick me in the circle while I planned to get into fetal and cover my head until they're bored because I beleived they really mistaken my for a rival club fan, and where i noted nothing like that ever happened in case of esport teams, while only this is my "livid experience", a real threat of violence that would become actual violence, while every year people are getting killed over this bullshit in just my country and the brawls are just countless, including massive riots. Nerds who play video games are so harmless it's sad I need to do this "PR for" gamers presented in a TV show stated as based on "headlines" as literal terrorists. (As for "literal terrorists", I was once doxed by supporters of an Ukrainian militant group after they just misunderstood what I wrote and I don't know what happened next because my choice was to just ignore everything about it, nothing at all happened to me in real life which is what I sure would happen - nothing, might have bneen worse if I lived in Ukraine though.) SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 10:59, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for apologizing. Not really for continuing to attack me. I checked out and it was more than an autism, he was seriously screwed up for a long time, including prior hospitalizations: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/251203 In any case he was an obsessive player of a so-called "non-violent games" (actually simulating a pretty violent sport). Something like that never happened before (not since), and was shocking, while brutal violence including many mass killings is something well known in traditional sports and something people are accustomed with. But that a difference between "jocks" and "nerds" (roughly speaking), with "nerds" nevertheless resulted in comments from journalists during GG such as these that they (gamers) should have been bullied more, or that the jocks are good guys as opposed to nerds (as was written by my former friend in Polish newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza - it's behind paywall now). Another thing is mass killers and serial killers play games less than general population does. In any case I never felt in any way unsafe at or near any gaming event, didn't see anyone who did witness or heard of any situation, while when there's a football match there are cohorts of police in the streets and people better watch themselves as to not be "asking for it" from the fans. But really it's not just events, these are just occassions for their violence, they don't need them. For example, beside just attacking each other in the streets or raiding their apartments (wjazd na chate), there is a practice of ustawka to fight in remote locations without the cops (the cops sometimes arrive anyway) - see these image search photos: [20] (the particular photo [21] is where one died in a fight, again) and imagine something like that ever involving gamers anywhere and esports or anything else. It's such a completely different, harmless culture, that mass media presents as something very violent ("violent" is a word often used, including "violent harassment" [22] (you will need to copy-paste the link inside as it didn't save it and here it's being broken) despite it never having been violent) and very dangerous. These mass media articles are often influenced by Wikipedia - even outright linking to Wikipedia. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 15:44, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
(Christchurch wasn't a case of the "killerspiele" as Germans call it, the terrorist was mockingly writing about being "inspired by Spyro 3" in his manifesto in a very obvious bait for the media who nevertheless did pick it and other baits in his plan to create maximum information chaos and notoriety using memes for his now seriously declared goal of "acceleration" in which governments and in particular that of the USA will crack down on free speech and guns leading to civil wars and then a race war, to create the starting point from The Turner Diaries that he was inspired by but he has no such a far-reaching goal as in that book, at least not the one publicly shared. I just wanted to explain it to Bryn after having read his manifesto, which was probably the worst written terrorist literature I've ever read - an exact opposite of Unabomber Manifesto, with the Islamic State's Dabiq Magazine something in between because it's rally a lot like The Watchtower and I can't take that seriously. I'll also explain that chans are like reddit where boards are like subreddits - they're separate forums with different communities. So he wasn't posting on /gghq/ nor its rival boards, he was on /pol/, which stands for "Politically Incorrect" and is full of people who are very much like him in their beliefs. But there's also for example /leftypol/, the "Leftist Politically Incorrect" which is for wannabe communist revolutionaries and you can see these communities don't overlap.) |
So I was told to walk away from that so I will (it wasn't even going anywhere and i was quickly sidetracked again to talk about things not very related and it was going into outer space). But I thought that maybe if you need and want sources for anything in particular to have rewrite stuff without sensationalism and singular-POV pushing I can find find and give your really what you need. Like I for example did Controversies surrounding Mortal Kombat (recently substantially rewritten again, in particular moving various crap to notes), where I covered stuff I obviously didn't agree with at all (like supposed connections to various killings) but didn't skip anything and just covered it from various perspectives including criticisms of these allegations wherever I could (really wish there was serious criticism of the bogus studies that I got listed but sadly couldn't have criticized so here they are listed one-sided even as I'm convinced it's all BS - like one another by Bushman that was recently retracted because it was so awful [23] but it's just his normal standard of "research of video games" he's been doing for over 20 years - but not mentioning them would be dishonest while I really really feel the need to be honest - going against myself in the name of NPOV), and I can find your sources for about just anything in the same way. You probably won't but I was going to give it a try. SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 18:34, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
A short version of the above is that I leave but if you need sources for something you might ask me and I might find it. (Which is especially for historical stuff and actually I'd prefer that because I have a respect and love for a lot of old game journalism and just hate most of the modern.) SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 20:27, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm shifting this tidbit into the talk page from the lede where it was dumped. No prejudice against restoring it in a more reasonable location within the article. For more info see WP:LEDE. - Thibbs ( talk) 01:13, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
In 2019, VKLiooon (Xiaomeng Li, 李晓萌), representing China [1] [2] in Hearthstone World Championship, defeated Bloodyface (Brian Eason, representing United States) to succeed Hunterace (Casper Notto from Norway, 2018 Hearthstone World Champion) as the 2019 Hearthstone World Champion [3], claiming a prize of $200,000 (USD). She was the first woman win a world championship in Esports.
References
- ^ Hearthstone Global Finals - Player Spotlights: VKliooon, retrieved 2019-11-04
- ^ "Sina Visitor System". passport.weibo.com. Retrieved 2019-11-04.
- ^ Esports, Hearthstone (2019-11-02). "A CLEAN SWEEP!! VKLIOOON HAS WON THE HEARTHSTONE GLOBAL FINALS!!!pic.twitter.com/3PwNX0qcBq". @HSesports. Retrieved 2019-11-04.
I think we should include a section covering how women are often employed as promotional models at video game events and unveilings. However, I don't know any reliable sources that have covered this topic in a neutral and detailed manner. Helper201 ( talk) 15:43, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
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