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Someone familiar with Urdu should transliterate the example phrases into IPA. Jeeves 02:38, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Sirf ek sawaal... Shouldn't we mention the place of origin of Urdu more definitively than simply 'South Asia' in the beginning? It originated in the north-west regions of the Indian sub-continent around what is now Lahore and New Delhi (switching in between). -- LordSuryaofShropshire 21:03, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)
What date can be put as birth date for Urdu? Chirags 14:24, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I have edited the 'speakership' sections to reflect the best data available concerning Urdu as a mother tongue. As a first language Punjabi is overwhelmingly in the plurality in Pakistan at about 48% with Urdu, though official, seeing only 8% of the country as native speakers ( [1]). As for speakers in India, while it is tempting to simply say that Muslims speak Urdu and Hindus speak Hindi, this is a woefully misguided and inaccurate statement.
I'll explain... If you hear, say, an interview with Amitabh Bachan or Shah Rukh Khan, their usage of 'Urdu,' or 'Arabo-Persian' words, is the same, and might more accurately be termed Urdu than Hindi. The same phenomenon can be observed in many 'Hindi-speaking' communities across the Northern belt. Surely there is a leaning towards Hindi in heavily Hindu areas, such as Benares. But Hindus living in Hyderabad, or Lucknow, do not speak a noticeably different blend of Hindustani than their Muslim neighbors, certainly not enough to term them speakers of two different languages! Thus, I amended the statement in that passage to say that Muslims, though perhaps feeling more of a cultural pull towards Urdu, are not alone in being native speakers. Also, I feel a small reference to Premchand might be in order, not merely because he is Hindu, though that is a powerful message that Urdu can serve as a powerful unifier between communities, but also because he is practically the father of the afsana and possibly the best Urdu short-story writer there is. Urdu is obviously primarily Muslim in literary flavor, if it is anything, but its grand history should be given full display and it should be noted that some of its greatest fans are Hindus. Ghazals sell in Hindu-majority India. -- LordSuryaofShropshire 04:25, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)
An anon recently re-ordered the list of languages from which Urdu takes vocabulary to put Hindi last. That sounds like a POV attempt to de-emphasize their relationship, but I don't really know for sure, as modern languages really aren't my thing. -- कुक्कुरोवाच| Talk‽ 07:09, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I am myself example of a person who don't have urdu as a mothertongue but speak urdu as my first language. I have first hand knowledge in Pakistan. It is a fact of life here which no body disbutes as a fact (Good phenomenon or bad is different) but it is a very big factor here. specially in urban areas (I live in Peshawar). this u can ask "ANY" Pakistani living in urban areas. plz before removeing or re-editing ask any pakistani about it. and plz also I will be great ful if any body tells me how to settle any disbute over any information (if in the case of any disbute) and who has the authority to decide the disbute. thanks
Although urdu is not Mother tongue of many pakistanis but more and more people are using urdu as their first language instead of punjabi and other languages specially in urban areas. (very much like English language overtaking Irish language but at a lot slower pace).
It is, however, the language of prestige and all signage and is taught as compulsory in the Pakistani school system; it is, more and more, becoming the first language of even many ethnically Punjabi Pakistanis as time goes by.
It is, however, the language of prestige and all signage, taught as compulsory in the Pakistani school system. As time goes by, more and more Pakistanis of Punjabi or other background are speaking Urdu as a first language. It is evident that the native speakership of Urdu is increasing more quickly in urban centers.
Thanks for your guidence Actually only thing which I wanted to say was that in Pakistan ther are number of pakistanis who know urdu better then any other language they can speak although their mothertongue is not urdu. Actually my english is not that good so I think I was not able to edit it in a proper way. Second I am more used to open forums and open source software forums where I Can Enter what I feel without taking considering a lot about its accouracy. Although I tried to be cautious on wikipedia but I think it was not enough.
Probably because it was my first day editing Articles and at maximum 2nd day browsing wikipedia. and plz also help me how to enter the response in thread. so it won't become a new messege but will become a part of the subject. thanks -- Zain 16:06, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I solicited the pronunciations shown from a Sindhi speaker who said he had some familiarity with Urdu, and he assured me that he was pronouncing the words in the correct way for Urdu. However, my transcriptions should be checked if possible by someone who knows Urdu and IPA or someone who knows IPA and a native speaker of Urdu. Jeeves 00:00, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that we have the Urdu [and/Farsi] text of poetry alongside the translation. This could be in English script or in Urdu. English might be better. What say?-- iFaqeer 03:46, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As I have said on the comment on the Hindustani article, the description there and here on the whole issue is about the best I have seen.
However, saying that "So Urdu speakers will find their own language in the Hindi cinema..." is over-simplifying the issue. It is not just because the languages are close that Urdu speakers just happen to find their own language in Hindi cinema. Bollywood started out with and continues to have a major contribution from poets and other literateurs that are also major players in the world of Urdu literature. And I say this not just out of chauvinism (or at least not consciously :D), but because if we get it just right (as Wikipedia seems to have done in the case of Hindustani), it really would help document a side of the South Asian experience that is not recognized properly in most cases.
And the phrase "Hindi Cinema", which I admit is a common way to refer to Bollywood is also problematic. I would recommend using the latter term.-- iFaqeer 19:03, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)
Just reverted some POV additions to this section. "Not doing justice" to Urdu combined with the phrase "[so-]called Hindi speakers" implies a pro-Urdu, anti-Hindi bias that has no place here, in this section especially. If the Hindi speakers in question think they are speaking Hindi, and other Hindi speakers agree, who are we to say they aren't? It would be as absurd as saying the actors on Pakistani television were "so-called Urdu speakers" because speakers of Hindi can understand their dialogue. -- Skoosh 22:12, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
We really need to synchronize the material here under "Urdu, Hindi, Hindustani" and under the Hindustani entry. I really, really liked what was under the latter entry--till I saw the material here. It would be a good thing to help both improve each other.-- iFaqeer 19:05, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)
Just that.-- iFaqeer 22:26, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
"Tum" is definitely not plular; and Aap is also very often not. I am going to revert—unless someone can express a real and well-argued objection. — iFaqeer | Talk to me! 18:49, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
Aap is used to refer to one person as a sign of respect because it is a plural form. You are saying that I respect you to such a degree that I will not use a form met for just one person, you are worth more than that. Whether this goes through my mind when I speak Urdu I cannot say. But similarly in French vous is used as a polite form of the you singular but it is still a plural form.
I've lived in the Middle East for about 12 years. The Middle East has a very large number of expats (infact, they are majority). As such, most shop keepers prefer to learn Urdu because of the large population that can understand Urdu/Hindi and the fact that Urdu shares some words with Arabic and English too.
So, could someone write about its use abroad? I also know that it can be understood in some Chinese villages along the border with India and Pakistan. There is a sizable Urdu speaking population in North America and Europe too.
Mahmud Ghaznavi as founder of Urdu? Never heard of that one. Let's get some documentation before we put that in. Reverting. — iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 19:05, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)
I just did a little copy editing on this article's literature and poetry section, but as I don't speak Urdu, I wasn't sure which version of this word (Afsana vs. Afsaana) was more standard. Could some native speaker remove one form from this article? Jarsyl 05:26, 2005 Jun 1 (UTC)
First off, is there a valid reason for the infobox being reduced to just the name and the SIL code? Secondly, why is this article not at Urdu? Since there is nothing to disambiguate "Urdu" from, there is no need for the "language". See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Languages#Structure for applicable guidelines. Peter Isotalo 22:10, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)
To a person who has only heard a language spoken on the streets or from movies, the languages may seem similar. The fact is that the so called 'Urdu' speaking people and 'Hindi' speaking people do not converse in the purest forms of these languages. Due to Bollywood (Indian film Industry) and the British Invasion, in this era the people use a hybrid language of Urdu, Hindi, and English.
If one were to use complete Urdu and another complete Hindi, they wouldn't be intelligible to one another. Just because people using a language alter the way they speak and vocabulary they use, it doesn't mean that the language has changed, but they are using a mixture of languages. Urdu will always remain Urdu (Persian/Arabic derived) and Hindi will always remain Hindi (Sankrit derived).
The grammatic structure in these languages, however, is very similar. The nouns and adjectives are what are completely different.
The language spoken by most people in this era is neither completely Urdu nor Hindi. Due to the emphasis of English in Pakistani and Indian schools, the mother tongues are being forgotten. The primary source that the majority of people turn to for education in their native language is movies. Bollywood (Indian Film Industry)'s use of a hybrid language consisting of Urdu, Hindi, and English is what is spoken by the majority of people who have not studied Urdu or Hindi. This fact doesn't change the original languages however. (unsigned by 70.177.166.200 ( talk · contribs) 23:25, 19 August 2005)
Check this:"It soon became the language of the Mughals, distinguished linguistically from local languages by its large and extensive Arabic (20%) and Persian (70%) vocabulary and the rest being derived from Turkish and local dialects in its purest form. The result was what has been called one of the world's most beautiful languages, the "Kohinoor" ("Mountain of Light," a famed native, large and brilliant diamond from the region) of languages. It is widely spoken today in Pakistan and some muslim dominant parts of India.
In the past hundred years, due to Bollywood (the Indian film industry) and the British Invasion, Urdu and Hindi have become intertwined. Bollywood's use of a middle tongue between Urdu and Hindi has brought the people to a common tongue often used in the current time."
If the language has 90% Perso-Arabic vocabulary then why would it be classified as "Indo-Aryan"?? This statement is simply not true. The basic vocabulary of Hindi and Urdu are same. Even though Hindi draws most of its higher vocabulary from Sanskrit, it is littered with Arabic words, vice versa is true for Urdu. I'm not propogating any kind of language nationalism here. But i think such gaping inaccuracies in Wikipedia articles should not tolerated.
If you go through the history of this article, you'll notice how India has been added and removed from the "Official Language of:" table. Well whoever is behind this. STOP IT. Urdu is infact one of the national languages of India. SEE: List of national languages of India. This article itself recognises that India has more Urdu speakers than Pakistan. (unsigned by AMbroodEY 04:38, 25 August 2005)
There is one point in the article that I feel is incorrect. It's from the section regarding Roman Urdu. It is from these statements:
Urdu can be proud of having the richest variety of alphabet characters (44 compared to English’s 26) that can represent most of the sounds. Urdu’s own script is far more superior [sic] to the Roman script
1) The statement "Urdu can be proud of having the richest variety of alphabet characters (44 compared to English’s 26"
While it is not necessarily incorrect, it is a vague statement with nothing backing it up.
While there may be more pronunciation sounds in the Urdu language, than those of the English language, this does not have anything to do with the Roman alphabet. The Roman alphabet with only 26 characters is capable of producing words for any sounds made by a human. It's all in the way the letters are arranged as well the specific language itself. For example in German, the combination of 'ch' represents a sound not normally used in English, however the letters are from the Roman alphabet. Another example is the Spanish letter 'r'. These letters represent sounds not normally used in English, yet they can be represented using the Roman alphabet.
2) The statement "Urdu’s own script is far more superior [sic] to the Roman script" is misleading. What makes the Urdu script "far superior"? If you look at the roman alphabet it is superior in ways. For example,it is far more efficient than the Urdu script. With less characters and the ability to perform the same function, this would make it more efficient. Many languages around the world have voluntarily switched to the Roman alphabet for this very reason (Turkey, Malaysia, etc..) (unsigned by 64.42.192.130 ( talk · contribs) 17:20, 8 September 2005)
Happytime has edited my earlier comment (removing all the evidence I set forth in my argument), as well as significantly changing the meaning of a comment by AMbroodEY, and deleting one of Sukh's comments entirely (as can be seen in this side-by-side comparison). This sort of abusive behavior crosses the line, and if continued, can lead to serious consequences (e.g. banning). Let's not force that outcome. We need to respect each other's words on talk pages so that we can deal with each other in good faith.
Also, everyone please remember to sign your comments, so we can more easily follow the thread of the conversation. Four tildes at the end is enough - MediaWiki does the rest. -- Skoosh 09:29, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I've restored the affected comments to their original state, as far as I can tell. -- Skoosh 09:49, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Quote from Happytime's post:Any comments on the discussion page that are offensive will be removed.
Who decides whats offensive and whats not? Dont delete meaningful discussion just becoz its "offensive" to you. I dont care if you want to establish a false pedigree for Urdu. Go ahead classify it as an Arabic langauge. Only thing you'll ever manage to do is to descredit wikipedia. Moreover, is there any need for puttin "one of the schedule languages of India",Schedule langauge == Official Language. For every other schedule langauge article describes tat langauge as official language of India not as "schedule lang. of India". Dont try to make it confusing just becoz some ppl cant bear to see it. -- AMbroodEY
Ironically AMbroodEY this phenom of false geneology in terms of pakistani identity is well documented. Excellent books to read up on this phenom is Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey & Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions among the Converted Peoples by V.S.Naipaul. He basically experiences average pakistanis attempting to claim arab ancestry in order to disguise their actual indo-aryan ancestry. It is a well known phenom in the islamic world, as islam indirectly promotes arab values as the true values of man. Ironically, cultures that have wholly converted to Islam such as the Turkic and Persian people, do not have this problem of false geneology. It is essentially a fear of being grouped with the lower 'non-believers' that causes this phenom. Urdu has very little relation to Arabic language, both structurally and phonetically. I know that Urdu speakers would have trouble even pronouncing certain Arabic words properly, i know because i've tried! Urdu was a language that developed in northern delhi and in lahore. It has never been a majority language in any nation, state or even city. It was never used exclusively by muslims, nor used as a divisive line in the general community. these are just fallacies spread by the nationalists that attempt to eradicate the true history of pakistan, and replace it with a sadly foreign fallacy. It is quite sad as its a beautiful synthesis of north indian languages & persian. thanks for reading Ead83 02:07, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
can any one explain me whats going on ? WiseSabre 19:49, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I'll tell, some ppl here r inventing a false history for Urdu. Urdu is NOT a Pakistani langauge alone, it has more native speakers in India than in Pakistan. Only wikipedia article fails to mention that Urdu is in fact result of fusion of Hindi with Arabic words. Microsoft Encarta describes its as:Urdu is the same language as Hindi but is written in a different script. <a href=" http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_762510380/Urdu.html"> [1]</a>. Even other sources describe Urdu as Hindi derived language loaded with Perso-Arabian words... But Pakistan for nationalistic reasons has over past 50 yrs tried to establish its separate identity. Disowning Urdu's Indo-Aryan past is one such program. I hope i'm not opening a can of worms here. User:AMbroodEY
hey don't comment over NATIONALISTIC reasons. it surely will open canof worms ;-)
Lots of crap like :
'Na Badet Yavani Bhasham Pranah Kanthgatepi va' (One should not speak the language of Muslim rulers even at the cost of death) was the slogan often used by an educated section of Hindus. This aversion against Urdu particularly in rural India also affected the unity in Indian society.
First of all "Yavan" here means Greeks and not Muslim and there is no reference to the source of the saying.
According to Anwar Azim, "Urdu never indeed took root in the soil of rural India. One reason for this was its snobbish aversion to the dialects of the regions, where Urdu was supposed to have deep roots." [2] In fact, Sanskrit-educated rural India had developed an aversion against Urdu, which they associated with 'Yavanas' (the alien rulers). 'Na Badet Yavani Bhasham Pranah Kanthgatepi va' (One should not speak the language of Muslim rulers even at the cost of death) was the slogan often used by an educated section of Hindus. This aversion against Urdu particularly in rural India also affected the unity in Indian society.
Wherever Muslim soldiers went and settled they carried Urdu with them, which also served their purpose of keeping the Muslim masses separated from the non-Muslims. Had the intention of Muslim rulers been honest, they would have allowed this lingua franca to develop in the linguistic tradition of this land as was done by previous invaders like Huna, Kushans and others. Development and growth of any language depend upon state patronage as well as of its acceptability among the native dwellers. Urdu enjoyed commanding status in the literary courts of Muslim rulers and Nawabs, and flourished under their patronage but common people hardy developed any emotional attachment with it as a result it never got the environment for its natural growth. Urdu pushed the Sanskrit, the language of intellectuals in Indian society to wall but it could survive only due to its inherent resilience.
Argument that Urdu was developed as lingua franca during Muslim rule may be partially correct but its Persianisation and Arabisation at the cost of the native dialect shows that Muslim conquerors never cared for the sentiments of the subjugated natives in their attempt to impose their cultural hegemony over them.
I have removed this para on the basis
الثاقب (WiseSabre| talk) 11:58, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I would agree on much of the above, except for the fact that during the mughal and even british rule of india (& current day pakistan & afghanistan) the actual lingua franca was actually persian. my own grandfather's mother tongue was farsi (persian) even though he was raised a sikh in lahore! I believe it is incorrect to attempt to try and group urdu as being in a separate language group as hindi, when obviously a native speaker would identify its root language as primarily Sanskrit. Today's youth i've realised speak more Hindustani (a fusion of Hindi & Urdu) than either language. Its inevitable that words will be borrowed and outside influences will evolve in language as it has always done. I think its quite amusing to see the 'old guard' traditionalists attempt to retain the original character of a language and insist that it will never change. For example, an average arabic speaking north african would generally have trouble reading the koran that is written in the arabic of the early sixth century; just as english speaking people today would have trouble reading a 6th century english document. I think i've made my point clear Ead83 02:37, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
There is no such Subgriup, Urdu is classified under Western Hindi languages by linguists. See Indo-Aryan languages. This article is starting to look more out of Uncyclopedia rather than Wikipedia. This article basically is 500 essay on how Urdu is different than Hindi. AMbroodEY 02:07, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
could we make new pages for newspapers published in urdu and t.v channels in urdu?
and
list of urdu poets and writers of urdu?
الثاقب
(WiseSabre|
talk) 13:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
anyone intersted in hindi urdu relation should check this site,there is a software for tranliteration (and NOT translation) between hindi words to urdu, infact it will only change the script.. [3]
Online use of urdu I think this should be removed because there are alot of sites now who use urdu.should we enlist them all?
الثاقب
(WiseSabre|
talk) 11:33, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
This article has been under attack by a POV warrior. I am fairly sure that it is one person. He has been reverting to his preferred, un-scientific, anti-Muslim version as JacobCK (brand new user, only edits here) and two anon IPs. One has already been blocked for 3RR and the other is an AOL anon IP with a long history of vandalism and trolling. The talk page for that IP (which consisted of a long series of complaints re vandalism and trolling) has been blanked and all that is left is a declaration that the user intends to destroy Wikipedia.
I have used up my 3RR on this article and I hope there's someone else here to hold the fort. Zora 01:53, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
There are biased views in the current article that are far away from the truth. The article reads, "Urdu and Hindi are the standardized forms of the Hindustani language, also known as Hindi-Urdu.
Urdu developed as a vernacular dialect from the interaction between local Indian Sanskrit-derived Prakrits "
This is completely false if one reads the history of the Urdu language from authentic/credible textbooks. Hindustani is a language that arose after the formation of Hindi and Urdu separately. It wasn't a precedent, it is a mix of the two that many people speak nowadays. Also, Sanksrits/Prakrits had very little to do with Urdu's formation.
It is currently on a version that promotes a pro-Hindu mentality. It writes that it was developed in Delhi. In truth, it is not known to an exact location and was developed in numerous areas. The word Hindi is written moreso on the URdu page than urdu itself. If one would like to read about the Hindi page they would go to that language page.
These are two completely different languages if one studies the both of them and knows how to speak them. It is different from Hindustani which is the mix of the two. This is the Urdu language page and discussess the Urdu language, there is a separate page for Hindustani and Hindi. You can see for yourself by using these dictionaries: |Urdu Dictionary and |Hindi Dictionary. (For the Hindi dictionary you must choose English for the first option and Hindi for the second at the top, then try typing an english word for the Hindi translation).
Also, a large portion of the History has been cut out, which explains the Urdu development. The most incorrect part however has to be the introduction in which cities are named. Urdu is the official language only of Pakistan and JammuKashmir (now considered part of India) (JammuKashmir is the reason Urdu is even listed as one of the national languages in India). (unsigned by 70.177.166.200 ( talk · contribs) 19:35, 12 September 2005)
Interesting. I thought the POV warrior might be of the Hindutva persusasion, protesting that pure Hindi had never been sullied by any intermixture with the languages of the conquerors. Now it seems that he might be Pakistani, and interested in proving that Urdu is Turkish and Persian in origin. Ah well, so much for my perspicacity <g>. Zora 01:04, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
1. Urdu was born in modern day India.
2. India has more native speakers of Urdu than Pakistan.
AMbroodEY 04:38, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
There's no reason to fight over this matter. I'm a Punjabi from Lahore who regularly uses Urdu, and I will provide you with real, unbiased info.
First off, Urdu is NOT derived from Persian, Arabic, and Turkish. It came from Sanskrit (indirectly), just like Hindi. Yes, Urdu uses more words from these 3 languages than Hindi, and the word "Urdu" itself is Turkish for "foreign" or "horde", but that doesn't mean that it's derived from those languages.
Secondly, Urdu and Hindi are, for the most part, mutually intelligible. Urdu has more Persian words and Hindi has more Sanskrit words, but they are intelligible for the most part. This does not mean, however, that they are the same language.
Thirdly, Urdu is considered by most a more cultured language than Hindi. I'm not being biased, and I hope I'm not offending anyone, but what can I do about the truth? Urdu is considered a language of poets and beauty. The same is for Spanish and Portuguese: Spain is larger than Portugal, and their languages are similar, but Portuguese is considered more cultured, as it has a larger number of Classical Latin words and has a more diverse vocabulary. The same for Urdu and Hindi - India is larger than Pakistan, but Urdu is more cultured because of the many more words from Arabic and Persian and the fact that it has a larger vocabulary. Hindi is cultured, too, as it has more Sanskrit words, but it has a smaller vocabulary. Generally, linguists grade culture on the vocab.
There. If I have time, I'll give reliable links to this info, so we can resolve this petty dispute.
-Stallions2010
If you're watching this page, just a note to say you may be interested in editing Pakistani literature both for Urdu influences and Punjabi, Pushto, Baluchi, etc, etc. Please check the talk page for some comments on what's needed there. Lisa 12:25, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Long enough. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 22:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I hate to protect this page, since it was unprotected only a few days ago. Please try to get to a consensus. Protection is not the solution. Also, the unforutnate edit war makes almost every participant make 3RR violations (Though I'd side with Zora in terming anon 70.*'s edits as vandalism). Anyway, please open an RfC instead of continuing this edit war. Thanks. -- Ragib 07:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
How should be stop this war? why couldnt we mention in article both parties arguments? الثاقب (WiseSabre| talk) 18:58, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I refuse to believe that such intelligent editors can be incapable of editing the article towards a consensus position rather than revert warring. I'm unprotecting the article again. Please let's give this a good go. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 02:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
unesco report stated that hidi+urdu is the 3rd largest language after chinese and english with 437 million speakers [6] الثاقب (WiseSabre| talk) 14:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Kwami (sp?) removed my comment re Urdu being first a pidgin and then a creole, saying that there was no evidence for that. True, I can't cite any evidence, seeing as how I've only had a few linguistics courses, and those were quite general. But what I understand is that the current theoretical paradigm in linguistics is that new languages/dialects often evolve by the process of cultural collision (conquest, population movements), the creation of a pidgin to handle limited contacts between peoples who speak diverse languages, and then the evolution of that pidgin into a creole. I'm most familiar with that in regard to Hawaii, where I live. There's Hawaiian pidgin, which evolves into a dialect still called pidgin but which is really a creole. Everything I know about Hindustani conforms to this model -- with the complication that it's all taking place in a huge swathe of territory with many interacting dialects. Are there any professional linguist types among us who could dig up cites for the pidgin-creole progression in this case? Zora 17:47, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
I've protected this article on the "language rising out of the neccesity of Muslim Army camps in South Asia to communicate with each other in the 1500's" version because that happened to be where I found it tonight after the latest round in the edit war. I've added the twoversions template which gives readers a single link to press to see the other version, and another link they can press to see the differences.
Please establish a consensus on a version of the article that will bring an end to this long content editing war. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 00:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Votes for current version
Votes for now alternate version
Comment Since the vote's been so lopsided (now 5 to 0), Tony's switched the versions. Need we continue? kwami 11:04, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I see no support for the currently displayed version. I've now switched to the " Indo-European language which arose in the vicinity of Delhi" version without the "twoversions" template in the hope that whoever is insisting on the "Muslim Army camps" version will be drawn to defending his position. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 14:48, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Unprotected. No evidence of any good faith editors who favor the alternative version. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 00:06, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm looking at the edits today. Some reverts but also progress in editing, which is good. Provided no one editor gets over say two reverts per day, I don't mind. The straw poll we carried out seemed pretty plain, and the few responses in favor of the military communication version were made on my talk page and seemed pretty sockish to me, so although I don't class that version as vandalism, per se, I'm going to grant a lot of latitude to those who, as part of a group, revert to the version upon which there is substantial support and upon which useful edits are proceeding.
I'd just like to remind all editors that, since there are a number editing this article, there's no need for anyone to do lots of reverts. If the community is seen as a whole to support a particular version, that is good, but one person playing "holding the fort" isn't on. It won't hurt the article if it's in a state that you yourself don't favor for a while; if there is substantial support for the version you favor it will be returned to that version. Also don't revert for the sake of reverting. Edit the version that you favor to make it better. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 20:35, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to butt in without having read all the discussion - can anyone get an image of the alphabet up please (preferably the modern one as well e.g alif mad) as try as I might messing around with encoding (and I'm computer literate) I can't get it to display all the characters. Thanks!
Hold on, I'll make one and upload it.
in the mean while try reading instructions, and try downloading the urdu font from the bbc urdu site,
its link is
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/ --
Girish
The intro summarizes the history of the language twice, when it's arguable whether it needs to be stated there even once. We should combine the summaries into one, and rearrange the paragraphs for a more a logical flow. skoosh (háblame) 16:31, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
There's a serious need for sourcing and the removal of stray POV sentiments here. I've done some, but there's more to be done yet. skoosh (háblame) 16:31, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Any suggestions? skoosh (háblame) 16:31, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
and the whole Romanized Urdu section could be deleted.
I thought there was some merit in Harprit's complaint, conveyed through Kwami, that the "Urdu = Hindi" arguments ought not to be the first topic of the article. I therefore extensively rearranged the article so that the "positive" aspects came first -- classification, geographic distribution, grammar, writing, literature -- and then Hindi/Urdu stuff and finally the Romanized Urdu. I have done some rewriting, but not as much as the article needs. I think it could be much more succinct than it is. I hope that the other editors will approve this reorganization and help with further rewriting. Zora 21:35, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Justice complained that Zora's article didn't continue the integration of the two versions, but reverted to the old version with just some rearrangment. Anyway, I thought I'd give it a try. Since Zora's version was better written, I used it as the starting point, revised about half of it, and added in things from Justice's version. I am not knowledgeable on the subject, and hardly consider what I've done definitive, but hopefully we can cooperate on this.
A couple tidbits from Ethonologue I thought were interesting, and support one of the changes I proposed earlier:
I read this as meaning that Hindustani has a substantial Perso-Arabic component, and that standard Hindi was created by purging this and replacing it with Sanskrit.
Urdu: Dialects: Dakhini (Dakani, Deccan, Desia, Mirgan), Pinjari, Rekhta (Rekhti).
That is, three of the four varieties of Hindustani identified under 'Hindi' (Dakhini, Rekhta, and Urdu proper) are considered dialects of Urdu. I read this as meaning that Standard Hindi and Standard Urdu are both standardized registers of Hindustani, and that otherwise dialects of Hindustani are the same thing as dialects of Urdu.
I read this as meaning that Standard Urdu has been Persianized over the level of its Hindustani base, that "Urdu" varies in its degree of Persianization, rather than being defined by it, while "Hindi" is defined by being de-Persianized.
Well, someone else can try integrating this if they think it's worthwhile. kwami 01:27, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Kwami, that was darn good editing. It's a much better article. There is one sentence, however, that I find problematic:
Relatively inexpensive publishing, combined with the use of Urdu as a lingua franca among Muslims of South Asia has resulted in Urdu having more contemporary Islamic works than any other language.
I left that out of my version because I saw no references supporting it. It is possible that there are more Islamic works in Urdu than in Arabic, but I don't think that it's so obvious as to not need a reference. That sentence sounds to me like a BOAST, and I don't trust unreferenced boasts. If there are no references, the sentence should be removed. Zora 02:08, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
The two diacritic-R letters are reversed: the R-dot is [z] (as in Arabic and Persian), while the R-toay is the retroflex [r] (allophone of retroflex /d/), which is only Indic. kwami 07:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Why don't we just discuss the classification here, rather than arguing in the edit comment line? Also, I don't think Justice was trying to remove all mention of Hindi, as he only took out a couple comments he evidently didn't agree with.
The last couple contentious edits were these: classification levels between Indo-Aryan and Urdu, and what to call the Northern Indian dialect continuum that would be the 2nd most populous if counted as a single language.
I had "Hindi" for the latter. Someone changed it to Hindustani, but that's not the same thing, and wouldn't be #2 in language rankings. Hindustani is basically colloquial Urdu, including the two standardized registers, standard Urdu and standard Hindi. It doesn't include Bihari, Chhatisgari, etc, which are required to get into 2nd place in the rankings. So I changed it again, saying that this wider language was also confusingly called Hindi. This is what Justice reverted.
Now, I know the wording isn't very elegant, and I would welcome something better, but calling it Hindustani is, as far as I know, incorrect.
As for the first issue, I don't think that anyone in either camp disagrees that both Standard Urdu and Standard Hindi are varieties of Hindustani. So I don't see why that should be a problem for the classification. Now, "Hindi" in the wider sense is a social construct without any linguistic validity, so that's out. But my understanding is that Western Hindi (the western end of the dialect continuum, including Hindustani) is okay. Maybe I'm wrong here?
Personally, I'd take out Central Indo-Aryan instead, as that is an Ethnologue classification that I have strong reservations about. (For example, the two main "dialects" of Panjabi are classified by Ethnologue into different branches of Indo-Aryan, one Central and one not, even though they're part of a dialect chain.) Anyway, Indo-Aryan is a valid node, as I believe is Hindustani, and Western Hindi is a very commonly used term.
(Is there any support for using "Hindustani" to include Panjabi, Bihari, etc? If so, what do we call the diasystem that includes standardized Urdu & Hindi? Just calling it Urdu might be accurate historically (I don't know, really), but I'm sure that would infuriate Hindu nationalists, and we'd have another edit war on our hands.)
Comments? kwami 09:58, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
(I just made a compromise edit, leaving in Hindustani but ranking it at #4, after Chinese, Spanish, and English. Also, an earlier discussion above agreed that Western Hindi was valid, but Hindustani was not; here we seem to be saying the opposite.) kwami 10:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Things seem to have settled down a bit. The only thing still being reverted is the classification in the table, which for some reason someone hiding behind an anonymous IP address doesn't like. It can, however, be substantiated with Ethnologue or any other number of references. But even if it's wrong, that's a pretty minor point which could easily be cleared up if anon. is willing to present any evidence.
What say we give it five days for everyone to comment, and then remove the warning if there are no substantial objections?
Remove warning
Keep warning [none]
Okay, it's been nine days, so I'll remove the warning. The only issue still contested is the classification of Urdu as Hindustani. kwami 21:59, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I sat down and read the article, instead of just looking at the diffs, and realized that Justicelaw's edit was OK. It is misleading to call Hindi a dialect of Urdu. I think the standard formulation is that they're both dialects of Hindustani. I'm sorry I've been a pain. I'm so rattled by Harprit attacks at this point that I'm not being fair. Zora 08:46, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Urdu is not a subcategory of Hindi or Hindustani. Hindustani would be both under Urdu and Hindi. Indo-Iranian is what is in most places, but it can be further classified as Indo-Aryan and that should be enough.-- StephenCox 22:10, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
http://chars.lin.oakland.edu/General/HistoricalClassification.pdf -- JusticeLaw 01:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
The problem with genetic classification of languages is that it ignores a lot of complexity. While I don't agree with Harprit? Justicelaw? in dividing Urdu utterly from Hindi, I would admit that the nationalistic drive to erase the Hindustani roots of Urdu has clearly had effects on the level of vocabulary, and may be having other effects too. I'm NOT a linguist, but I'd assume that there are linguists who challenge the usual genetic classifications. (Especially when it comes to pidgins and creoles -- doesn't Derek Bickerton, the Hawaiian creole specialist, have something on this?)
However, Justicelaw has not been able to find any academic texts that support his position. A pdf of a handout by a professor at a small lower-tier college with Hindi and Urdu side by side doesn't constitute a convincing argument -- especially since this professor is not a specialist in Hindustani.
I'd suggest that we put an asterisk in the classification box and then add "disputed" and then have a para in which we outline the dispute. The onus is then on Justicelaw to come up with something substantive. Zora 05:21, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
However the classification debate ends up, the participants should not abuse it by using sockpuppets. Also, any classification needs to be backed up by a reference, since there seems to be dispute arising from one particular user's constant reverts. Thanks. --
Ragib 05:57, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I have finally got a chance to do some research on it. Here it is:
Britannica Encyclopedia: “Indo-Aryan language originating in the region between the Ganges and Jamuna rivers near Delhi, now the official language of Pakistan. Numbering some 48,980,000 speakers in the late 20th century, Urdu is the primary language of the Muslims of both Pakistan and northern India.”
Meriam-Webster Dictionary: “urdu, from Persian zabAn-e-urdu-e-muallA language of the Exalted Camp (the imperial bazaar in Delhi)
Encyclopedia Infoplease: “Urdu , language belonging to the Indic group of the Indo-Iranian subfamily of the Indo-European family of languages. The official tongue of Pakistan, Urdu is also one of the 15 languages recognized in the 1950 Indian constitution.”
And here is this article which deals primarily with phonotactic distrubtions in the language (quite interesting you should read) and it supports the claim: www.crulp.org/Publication/Crulp_report/CR03_10E.pdf.
As you can see mostly all classify it under Indo-Aryan. -- JusticeLaw 19:22, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
There is no way I can prove what something is not, it is ridiculous to ask one to do that. All the sources I have provided refer to the language as Indo-Aryan. These are four and that other one I gave earlier. If you people would actually read the evidence, then perhaps you will stop warring. I'm pretty sure that most of these people have no interest or knowledge about the subject matter either; everyone is revenge editting (mostly due to Zora telling everyone I'm Harprit). Hopefully we can get this resolved, I tried my best and offered evidence.-- JusticeLaw 18:37, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Nope, it doesn't contradict. Because it shares a colloquial basis with Hindi, doesn't mean it is classified under it.-- JusticeLaw 21:04, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, Justice. That is an intelligent answer that we can base a discussion on.
It is very common for references to classify a language only in its family, or in a well-known branch of a family. Most surveys do this. Your sources probably list languages as being, for example, Polynesian, Bantu, Nilotic, Slavic, Romance, Iroquois, etc., because those are terms that people are familiar with, and they're precise enough for 99% of their audience. For more obscure languages, they might not even list the family, but only say 'Papuan' or 'Australian' or some such. Further classification as Samoic Outlier, Grassfields, Iberian, Nimboran, etc. are not left out because they're wrong, but because the editor decided they weren't relevant for their purposes. If you look at other language articles on Wikipedia, however, you'll find that most have detailed classifications. All we ask is that you find a source that disagrees with Ethnologue, which is the traditional classification. Then we'll have something to discuss. All you've done so far is point out that most sources are not as thorough as Ethnologue.
If the classification is contentious, it should be easy to find another classification that contradicts Ethnologue. kwami 00:09, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Hey, i thought i migh as well add something. You people are getting way too stresed over this issue. I agree with Justice in the sources thing, if everyone is classifying it as Indo-Aryan excpet ethnologue then keep it at that. Plus, that site is an individual source. Each book i read has different classifications for other languages, not much on Urdu though. About your claim of other languages on Wiki, go take a look at Hindi, even it is not given this classification you folks are given Urdu.-- StephenCox 02:49, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
There is debate about many things under the sun, but about ONE thing ALL linguists agree - Urdu's grammar and structure is Sankrit-derived - 100%.
So what are the differences?
1) Urdu has a plethora of Arabic and Persian words in it
This does not change the fact that it is Sankrit-derived - if you use more and more English words in Hindi, it will be a VARIANT of Hindi, and might start to look different from Hindi if people use mostly English words in HIndi.
2) Urdu is written right to left, in the Arabic script.
If you write Hindi using English alphabets, IT IS STILL Hindi. Looks like an Arabic-originated language perhaps, but still Hindi.
here are some things in case anyone wants to do the research:
peace – ishwar (speak) 23:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Some have criticized various uses of the word Rekhta in this article. Here's a link from Columbia U, partially repeated here in case it is ever removed:
Shadan: Rekhtah: the Urdu language. The dictionary meaning is cement for a building. The way a house is built from lime, gravel, bricks, stones, brick-dust, etc., in the same way the Urdu language has developed from the mingling of Sanskrit, Arabic, Persian, Turkish, and various Prakrits. For this reason they call the Urdu language 'Rekhtah'. (177)
Josh:
The old name of Urdu was 'Rekhtah'. [...]. (105)
Faruqi: About Rekhtah:
(1) Rekhta is two things at the same time. (a) A macaronic verse where the linguistic features of Persian are grafted on to Hindi templates; (b) amacaronic verse where the linguistic features of Hindi are grafted on to Persian templates.
(Please note that when I say 'Hindi', I mean 'Urdu'; 'Urdu' as a language name did not become known, far less current, until the very end of the 18th century, though the terms Rekhtha and Hindi cintinued to be used for the same language until the last quarter of the 19th century.) In the above sense, Rekhtah is a formal genre. It had a short life, almost entirely in Northern India, up to about early 18th century.
(2) Over time, the language in which the above kind of poems were written came to be called Rekhtah. In the mean time, Hindi became popular in and around Delhi as a literary language and Hindi began also to be called Rekhtah. In course of time, the term Rekhth began to be preferred, though not overwhelmingly, as the name for the written language, while the spoken language was more often called Hindi. The term Rekhtah began to be used for ' poem written in Rekhta', apparently as a throwback to the earlier practice. The term Rekhta, to denote a text written in the language called Rekhtah/ Hindi/ Hindvi, continued to be used until about the end of the 18th century.
However, there are two other ways the term Rekhtah has been used, though not in Urdu: (a) In Gujarati, there was a genre called 'Rekhta' until about the end of the 19th century. It was a kind of folky song, but I don't know more about it. (b) There was a genre called 'Lavani Rekhta' in which I have found poems in the North Indian folk drama (especially the 'Nautanki') of the late 19th century. While 'lavani' is a well-known metre in modern Hindi prosody, based on the Sanskrit 'pingala', there is no metre called Rekhtah in Urdu or Modern Hindi. The poems that I have seen with the heading 'Lavani Rekhta' do not present any special metrical or linguistic features. Perhaps the term meant 'a poem in the Rekhta mode and the lavani metre.' I haven't found anyone attaching any importance to the term.
(--answer to an inquirer's question, by email, June 2005)
I am sorry, but a daily sequence of 3 or more reverts means there is something still problematic with the page. Personally, I agree with the detailed classification from Ethnologue, and don't see any reason as to why we should not provide such a detailed one. So far, I am yet to see any justification from JusticeLaw (and/or the suspected socks) regarding this. The Ethnologue classification is a superset of JusticeLaw's classification, so the superset should be used. If the Ethnologue classification is wrong, JusticeLaw should provide a correct detailed classification. Otherwise, the frequent blanking of the details of the classification can only be considered willful vandalism. Thanks. -- Ragib 19:53, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I was wondering why we are using Bollywood (or Lollywood if you prefer) transliterations. Better is UTrans, and better than that is the academic approach like IAST. I won't go too much into detail, but for example, there is no excuse to have badee for بڑى and it would be better represented by baṛī. The problem with Urdu though comes with the diacritical marks which are shared by both Arabic and Devanagari transliteration. I.e. ṣ would represent ष in Devanagari and ص in Arabic. These might cause edit wars in themselves, but as Urdu is an Indic language I think s is a better solution - even though since there is no retroflex 'ś' in Urdu this does not really matter - just a matter of form. Problems also occur due to unicode limitations, because I don't know of a unicode character for the "umlaut" under 'z' for ظ, etc. 'ż' would work just aas well perhaps. In any case, if anyone has a Ferozsons dictionary, follow that or go to Hugo's Urdu Page. The phrases need alot of work as well. My Hindi-Urdu Phrasebook isn't exactly great either, and still incomplete too, but if anyone was wondering where to find examples of what I'm talking about check it out and help me finish it as well! ;-) But in general the transliteration of the phrases are really shaky. Why is اچھی achchhhee but جى ji? Things are more accurately represented (and æsthetically pleasing) by writing acchī and jī. The nasals are a problem but I like using a superscript 'n' or regular 'ṅ'. The IPA is good, I was just wondering why the Roman Transliteration hasn't followed suit.
Also, as an Hindi student interested in Urdu, I would love a section on the differences of Urdu grammar with repect to Arabic and Persian elements, etc.
The izafe for example, or how the Hindi तस्वीर is تصاوير, and I would like someone to answer this question: is the final -t I see in some Urdu words which don't exist in he Hindi recension the Arabic feminine marker ة? Also what about all that fun punctuation Urdu has in poetry, etc [7]? And as a final note, something that's intrigued me for some time is the ژ zh, I know it is supposed to be rare, but I haven't come across it even once yet! Anyway, until things are resolved I'll leave it up to someone to talk to me if they want help entering characters, etc. Khirad talk 22:13, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I have major problems with this image! It shows Urdu as being the official (or even widespread enough to be mentioned) in Indian Punjab. It also shows its widespread use among the Hindi heartland and West Bengal (Bengali anyone?). Also, there is absolutely no evidence indicating what source was used to make the image. Sukh 17:31, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
hi. i typed up some stuff from a quality encyclopedia here: Talk:Hindustani language#more sources. in case anyone is interested. peace – ishwar (speak) 02:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Siddiqui, you erased all mention of tensions re the use of Urdu in Pakistan, conflicts between Muhajairs and Sindhis, small percentage of population who speak Urdu, and turned that section into a rah-rah rendition of "millions of people speak Urdu". Wikipedia has a duty to notice controversies, not sweep them under the rug. Please don't try to whitewash conflict. Zora 21:48, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
There is conflict between Urdu and Sindhi languages in the Sindh province. That can be discussed in another paragraph with proper heading. I think that the whole progress of Urdu language in Pakistan during last 58 years cannot be summed up in the Sindhi-Urdu conflict in Sindh province. While Urdu has made great strides in Pakistan as millions of non-Urdu speakers have passed through the Urdu medium education in Pakistan. I think that the conflict and the progress both should be included in this article. Siddiqui 05:58, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I have issues with some of the countries listed in the "Countries with large numbers of first-language Urdu speakers:" section. Some, for example the UK rely on all the Pakistanis speaking Urdu. This is simply untrue and most will speak Punjabi. There are no references to many of the figures in general. Others, for example South Africa are listed as "200,000 South Asian Muslims, many of which speak Urdu" and are simply idle speculation.
The countries that do not have verified figures need removing. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 11:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
According to Delhi Official Language Bill, 2000, Urdu is one of the four official languages of Delhi, other languages being Hindi, Punjabi and English. deeptrivia ( talk) 23:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
In the alphabet, what does the "chotee" and "badee" description mean? If they have a meaning like "long" or "short", or "initial" or "final", could that be included in the table for the alphabet? TIA -- Uncle Davey (Talk) 17:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Funny that the Pakistani's are always up in arms over their lineage. They cannot accept that their national language has Sanskrit language influences and all reference to Sanskrit has been removed. At the same time they assert that it is closest to Hindi and is part of Hindustani languages and belongs to Indo-European/Indo-Aryan languages. Should this article then be marked NPOV?
Urdu speakers out there lets try to each of us create one new wikipedia entry for Urdu everyday to help the growth of Urdu wikipedia. I am trying to get my friends interested. We should get this off the ground.
This page is almost completely incorrect. The majority of the material is not credible. It says that Urdu influenced Hindi. This is not factual as Urdu in itself was a concept of a mere half century ago. The differences are purely political, such as with the use of the nastaliq script and the heavy use of arabic loanwords. However, the language itself is rooted the same way as Hindi.
I have urdu as my native language. I would like to suggest a few changes in this article.
First, I haven't seen the word معلہ (mu'alla) with chhoti hay in it. Rather I have seen this word with chhoti yey with an ascended khaRa alif thus the form ﻣﻌﻠٰﻰ.The word is derived from the arabic word a'la ﺍﻋﻠٰﻰ meaning high (but it is difficult to produce).
Second, ڑ arr retroflex [ɽ] , in the IPA chart under the subheading Writing System should be ڑ arr/rray retroflex [ɽ] (by the way I don't know wether the alphabet is called arr but if someone has suggested then it may be personally I have only heard it called rray)
Third, The entry no نا naa casual , in Examples subheading should be no ﻧﮧ naa casual , because نا is treated differently than ﻧﮧ (very light difference)
Fourth, The form of poetry Qat'ã in the Poetry subheading is misspelled قطہ, should be ﻗﻁﻌﮧ
Fifth, The form of poetry نوحہ in the last paragraph of the Poetry subheading is wrongly tranliterated as noha. The better transliteration should either be Nau'ha or Nauha.
Sixth, Under the Urdu Poetry Terminology subheading the compound word مصرعہ ثانی would be read misra sani. To get to better represent the form ﻣﺼﺮﻋۂ ثانی is prefered.
Please lemme know if you disagree to any of these.
Regards.
-sahraza