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Obviously the term Turkish bath can also apply to the oriental hamman, not the other way around, so the suggested merger direction is absurd! Does anyone know whether there are other traditions as well? Fastifex 13:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The suggested merger is not useful because it merges different types of bath, as anyone who had used them would soon realise.
The Victorian Turkish Bath (= the Irish Roman bath) uses a series of increasingly hot rooms to sweat in air which is as dry as possible—go to Harrogate or Baden-Baden; the Islamic hammam is steamy and humid because the dry air is affected by the water used to bathe onself within the hot areas—go to Paris or anywhere where there is an Islamic community; the Russian bath or banya is a hot steam bath (often erroneously called a Turkish bath in the UK)—go to Russia or New York or, if you like plastic boxes, to a health club or hotel; the sauna is initially heated with dry air, to which small quantities of water are added from time to time to give a rush of hot air—go to Scandinavia or your health club or hotel.
The Victorian Turkish Bath and the Islamic Hammam are both derived from the Roman bath which goes back at least as far as Sparta.
For a more detailed discussion, see: http://www.victorianturkishbath.org/_3TOPICS/AtoZTopics/Technology/WetOrDry/WetOrDryEng.htm
Certainly the turkish bath and the hammam are one-and-the-same, at least throughout the Middle East. If the Victorian Turkish Bath is different, perhaps the present entry for "Turkish Bath" should be changed to "Victorian Turkish Bath".
I do not think that changing the title of this article would leave it improved in any way. In my view there ought to be three separate articles linked by see also refs. These would be: Islamic hammam; Victorian Turkish bath; Russian (steam or vapour} bath. They are, in fact, three very different types of bath. There might also be a see also ref to Sauna.
The Islamic hammam, from the fall of Constantinope till the present time is, or is based on, the Islamic requirement for ritual ablutions on specific occasions, though it is often used for general bathing and socialisation. I am not an expert on these baths but, as I understand it, the use of running water is a necessary requirement—not, as stated in the article, merely to be preferred. One of the few hammams with a pool is at Bursa which is built over a natural spring so that the water is constantly changing. Because bathers wash within the hot rooms, the hot air becomes steamy in use.
The Victorian Turkish Bath is based on the ancient Roman bath and was first revived in 1856 in Ireland (and is, therefore, often called in Germany—and elsewhere on the European continent—the Irish-Roman bath. Very few of these remain, mostly in England, Scotland, and Germany. I know of none which has been built since the late 1970s. The definition which is becoming increasingly recognised is: a type of bath in which the bather sweats freely in a room heated by hot dry air (or in a series of two or three such rooms maintained at progressively higher temperatures), usually followed by a cold plunge, a full body wash and massage (together known as shampooing), and a final period of relaxation in a cooling-room.
Most so-called "Turkish baths" at the present time are actually Russian baths, occasionally based on the stove-heated Russian banya, but more often—especially in hotels and health clubs—comprising a prefabricated plastic self-contained room into which steam is injected. Many hotels and health clubs provide a Finnish sauna in addition to the steam room.
Some of the new baths being built in or near Muslim communities in, for example, London or Liverpool, are called Turkish baths but often have Hammam in their title. These will more often be designed to replicate traditional Islamic hammams. Ishpoloni ( talk) 08:25, 29 September 2020 (UTC)Ishpoloni
I can not find any information confirming the wiki's claim of tellak prostitution, homosexuality, etc in ottoman times.
(Note to myself.) This was the merge. -- RHaworth 13:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi there.
From my extensive studies of Turkish culture and history, I vehemently disagree with the notion of tellak homosexuality or prostitution. This article does not source any such claim and thus the homosexuality/prostitution aspect is baseless and might mislead many readers. I will remove it, the LGBT category and consequently the Gay Bathouse wikilink within 5 days (which should prove more than enough time to back up any such claims), because really, they have absolutely no relation! Furthermore, I will edit the Tellak subcategory to reflect the true nature of the position. Unless someone can provide hard facts regarding the occurance of homosexuality in ancient or contemporary hamams. In any case, I assert that the homosexuality claims are entirely false and baseless and were put there by User:Haiduc in the first place, who is a self-proclaimed homosexual paedophile ( Pederasty).
Taken from an early version of his user page: "which means that I like to have anal sex with little boys. It is a time-honored tradition that was celebrated in all cultures and in all histories, and it is my mission to reflect that on Wikipedia."
I don't mean to be disrespectful, however, he has made his intentions and goals on wikipedia clear and his claims are false in regards to Turkish hamams and thus must be corrected. Fatih Kurt 14:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I have been in contact with Professor Micheal P. Brown regarding his book "Closet Space", he has told me that he quoted that line from Professor Neil Miller's book "Out in the World". After this referral, I thus naturally inquired to Professor Miller concerning the subject and he has said he has extremely limited knowledge regarding homosexuality in Ottoman Hamams.
I have included the direct and unedited quotes below -
Professor Micheal P. Brown:
“ | Fatih,
You should contact Neil Miller, who I think I was quoting, via his book 'Out in the World'. He could be reached through his publisher. Michael Brown Associate Professor of Geography The University of Washington Box 353550 Seattle, WA USA 98195-3550 Fax: 206-543-3313 [email protected] http://faculty.washington.edu/michaelb |
” |
Professor Neil Miller:
“ | Dear Fatih,
I don't know very much about hammams in the Ottomon Empire..., and I'm not sure where exactly in my book Michael Brown found that quote. If I can help you in any other way, do let me know. Best Wishes, Neil Miller |
” |
Consequently, we can see that both faculty members have little or no factual knowledge concerning homosexuality in Ottoman Hamams. If two professor's (which is a role that is supposed to be the epitome of un-bias & trust) who are experts in LGBT issues don't know anything about the topic, then how can we include the material based on a few sensationalist and extremely biased articles on the internet and a biased magazine? I don't think we can, the facts simply do not support the claims.
It has indeed been 5 days since my original argument, and as promised, I will now edit out the aforementioned areas. Although widespread on the internet as rumour, Ottoman Hamams had nothing to do with homosexuality. I cannot allow for fellow readers and editors to be swayed with false information.
I'll edit out the parts concerning homosexuality now and will update the tellak portion as soon as I have time to write up an accurate paragraph depicting them... and yes, I do have credible, peer reviewed articles concerning them, so there's no need for anybody to be worried.
Sorry I made this so long.
EDIT: For those concerned, I am also going to look for related articles that claim Ottoman Hamams had homosexual behaviour present and edit the content out, based on my claims. Thank you.
Fatih Kurt 15:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Islamic tenets encouraged pious muslims to clean the entire body with water ghusl up to 5 times a day. Therefore, hammams were often built as accessories to mosques.
Traditionally, the masseurs in the baths, male are called tellak in Turkish while female are called "natir", helped wash clients
There is ample evidence the tellak and natir's roles was filled by adult attendants who specialize in more prosaic forms of scrubbing and massage, just like it is today.
Their duties were just as washers, not as
sex workers. Prostitutes on the other hand are called
fahise in turkish, while a brothel is a
kerhane, literally place or house of filth.
It is illogical that a house of prostitution would be built as an accessory to a
mosque, an Islamic house of worship. According to Islamic tenets
homosexuality is a
sin and homosexuals burn in
hell for
eternity. See relevant quran verses prphet Lut and the kutubu sitte hadith
collection; he Advent of Prophet Lut(Lot):
The Prophet Lut (peace be upon him) was contemporary of Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him). He was a nephew and follower of the Faith of his uncle. He was the resident of Ur, an ancient town in Mesopotamia God conferred prophethood upon him.
"Then the (awful) cry overtook them at the sunrise: And We utterly confounded them, and We rained upon them stones of heated clay. Lo! therein verily are portents for those who read the signs." (15:73-75)
-- Kahraman 01:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The evidence for sex does seem flimsy in the extreme (and while there may been some, could blown out of all proportion). At present there are no references. There are NO references given in the text.... The Dellâkname-i Dilküşâ, eighteenth century work by Dervish is unfindable for me. There is another work referenced (though not in respect of this section).... Yılmazkaya, Orhan (2005). Turkish Baths: A Light onto a Tradition and Culture. This book does suggest a bit of sex went on. But not on a scale that justify the text as it stands now. Seem to me that some people want to read this into the baths I will edit softly now ... on the lines... "some believe... "
cckkab (
talk) 09:09, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Nor can I find anything to support the notion that in Turkish the term hamam oğlanı, 'bath boy,' is still used as a euphemism for a homosexual. However some learned native speakers of Turkish can put us on the right track cckkab ( talk) 09:23, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Your claim that the section "Introduction of Turkish baths to Europe (The Victorian Turkish bath)" is your copyright is, I submit, ridiculous. The section in question is virtually unchanged from this state of the Turkish bath article dated 2006 May 23. That article has an extensive edit history with multiple editors.
If you really can substantiate your claim, you may do so at Wikipedia:Copyright problems but, in the mean time, any further deletion of the section will result in the article being protected. -- RHaworth 14:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
PLEASE Can these two paras be removed. I made the claim many years ago under a complete misunderstanding and have regretted it ever since. Ishpoloni ( talk) 08:35, 29 September 2020 (UTC)Ishpoloni 29 September 2020
Hammam →
Turkish bath — Turkish bath is the English name and Hammam is Arabic so i think it needs to be moved to English title. —
Bozaci 22:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.This article has been renamed from Hammam to Turkish bath as the result of a move request. -- Stemonitis 17:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Why was this image removed? I thought it was quite useful as an illustration. Ashley VH ( talk) 10:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
In terms of sexual connotations the article seems only to focus on male homosexuality, but what about lesbian encounters in the hammam? To my understanding this is a common phenomenom in the history (and almost certainly also today's culture) of oriental bath houses. Maybe somebody could add some pictures!
Hammam is NOT a Turkish culture, it is Roman, and then the Arabs evolved it, then the Turks took it to the Third level, but a Hammam is NOT Strictly Turkish, their are Hammams in Arab cities that are older than the creation of turkey, or its Islamisation for that matter... in Cairo, Yemen, Damascus, Marrakech (which was never ruled by Turkey, if i may add...)... Arab League User ( talk) 19:04, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Arab League User is right, while Turkish bath maybe Hammam, Hammam is not a Turkish bath. The same principle follows for Arab, Mughal, etc. It's a practice best defined as part of greater Islamic culture that many Muslim countries and nations adopt or create for each other. I suggest renaming the article to simply "Hammam" and paraphrasing it to a more cosmopolitan (Ummah-friendly) tone with heavy emphasis on the Turkish/Ottoman patronage of the tradition. -- Humuphile ( talk) 20:09, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I advised new user Hurremyamakoglu ( talk · contribs) that www.turkishhammams.com might be an acceptable addition to this article. Instead of posting at this talk page to get agreement, the contributor has added it to the article again. I am about to move it down to the proper section, but please remove the link if you think it fails the guidelines. -- John of Reading ( talk) 17:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
The The Dellâkname-i Dilküşâ by Dervish Ismail Agha is said to be a document in the Ottoman Archives, Sülemaniye, Istanbul, and with this document as a reference it was formerly stated in this article that, "Traditionally, the masseurs in the baths, tellak in Turkish, were young boys, helping the men in washing their bodies. Their duties were not just washers, but also sex workers. We know today, by texts left by Ottoman authors, who they were, their prices, how many times they could bring their customers to orgasm, and the details of their sexual practices. The tellak system died out in the early years of the twentieth century, as a result of the increasing westernization of the Turkish Republic." User:Cckkab states that this document is "unfindable" but doesn't say where he looked. As there are numerous references to it on the web, presumably that is not where he did his research. Did he actually go to the archives in Istanbul. NPOV does not mean suppressing information because it offends one's Muslim, Roman Catholic, fundamentalist or other sensibilities. If someone invented this document, they must have been Turkish or have had an advanced knowledge of Ottoman Turkish. Communicating with English speaking scholars who have never been to Turkey hardly qualifies as conclusive research. Someone needs to do some research in Istanbul, not somewhere in Ireland (or one of the other places Gaelic is spoken). Give us a break!!!! Mike Hayes ( talk) 07:09, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
And yes, as it happens, an article IN TURKISH can be found at Wikiomera It contains a fairly lengthy quotation from the source which is actually hostile to the practices discussed, as being cruel to the youths, with no interest in their personal feelings, but only the gratification of the "client." Mike Hayes ( talk) 07:55, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
I have just added the section Ancient Roman bathing#Criticism dealing with how Roman thermae could be a pool of warmly kept bacteria and filth with a risk of infection. I was thinking if Turkish baths had a similar problem before modern chlorination and cheap water heating. Was the water changed often, especially in places where water had to be heated artificially? Did somebody complain? -- Error ( talk) 03:10, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
Hi there,
I would like to add a section on public baths in Morocco to this page as part of research I have been conducting for a class. I will also add some information about bathing/public baths in the Islamic context. I hope to finish and post soon and look forward to your input!
Smithkristin6 ( talk) 17:58, 5 March 2014 (UTC)smithkristin6
The result of the move request was: Not moved. ( non-admin closure) walk victor falk talk 06:31, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Turkish bath →
Hamman – Hamman is the proper name and the article is predominantly about Ḥammāns also the fact the word is Arabic is not an issue as we call a
Jewish bath (which doesn't even exist as a REDIRECT but can be found on Google search) a
Mikveh here and Mikveh is certainly not an English word.
24.241.69.99 (
talk) 18:05, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Hammam - 156 uses
Turkish bath - 89 uses.
Why is the article topic word referenced only 57% as much as a supposed synonym for the topic? At one point in the article it makes a clear distinction between the two (cooling pool and dry versus steamy air) so they are not synonyms and so it casts doubt if all the 156 uses are correct.
Dictionary.com makes hammam the global word in English for all public bathhouses [3]and relegates Turkish bath to a specific example of hammam [4] with specific behaviors (a type of bath in which the bather sweats freely in hot dry air, is then washed, often massaged, and has a cold plunge or shower). This treatment differs from Merriam but is significant as it is where English speakers might go(including myself) to look up these topics. 24.241.69.99 ( talk) 22:19, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
There is a nonsensical paragraph in the opening sectioin:
"'The discovery that was lost and has been found again, is this, in the fewest possible words: The application of hot air to the human body. It is not wet air, nor moist air, nor vapoury air; it is not vapour in any shape or form whatever. It is an immersion of the whole body in hot common air.'
If someone could rewrite that to make sense, that would be good. Otherwise it should be deleted. Zythophile ( talk) 15:30, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
The paragraph is apparently a direct quote. I cannot verify it, but if it is then it should not be rephrased, rewritten or paraphrased ExpatSalopian ( talk) 01:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
The paragraph comes from a lecture which was later published as: Thudichum, [Dr] J L W 'The Turkish bath' Transactions of the Royal Medical Society (1861) p.40 The description starting 'The application of hot air…' is one which was recognised by Dr Richard Barter and David Urquhart who were resposible for introducing this bath into the British Isles in 1856, and was generally agreed by all their followers. This is a good description of the Victorian Turkish bath. Ishpoloni ( talk) 07:07, 9 April 2017 (UTC)ishpoloni
One of the references in this article leads only to an advertisement for a commercial establishment. I am relatively new to Wikipedia and am interested to know whether this is normally accepted practice. Ishpoloni ( talk) 04:49, 26 March 2016 (UTC) Ishpoloni
This article is partly very misleading. While in the English language Middle Eastern bathhouses are known as "Turkish baths", the baths are not particularly Turkish. Hammams are an integral part of the entire Muslim culture and the Turkish culture is just one part of it. Ottoman bathhouses were not much different from bathhouses in the Arab or Iranian societies. Claiming that Hamams are "the Turkish variant of bathhouses" is very misleading.
See also this excellent academic article in Encyclopaedia Iranica about bathhouses in Iran and surrounding areas: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/bathhouses
This article needs a neutrality and factual accuracy check!
-- Lysozym ( talk) 08:55, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
No factual check can be anywhere near 100% ‘accurate’ when a term such as ‘Turkish bath’ has legitimately meant different things to different groups at different times, over a long period.
And while no check can be 100% neutral either, I will, as a fresh starter for discussion, attempt to indicate the main hot-air baths which still exist, and describe them so as to indicate their differences, after which I will suggest what articles I believe are needed in Wikipedia.
Baths can be taken in any medium, including such as milk or sunlight. Those that concern us here are baths in hot dry air, baths in vapour or steam, and baths using a combination of both. Most of these have evolved from the baths used in ancient Rome, and even earlier, when a whole range of baths—hot and dry—were widely used. The three groups which follow indicate those types which are most common today. Excluded are the sweat lodge found in Ireland and the Americas, and hot water baths such as the Sento of Japan, both of which are (correctly) separately treated in Wikipedia.
1. The hammam (hamam, or other variant spellings)
After the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the Roman bath survived, being adapted, and then adopted, by the Muslim ottoman conquerors. Cleanliness and ritual bathing, but not public nakedness, are intrinsic to Islam, and the Islamic bath, known as the hammam, is a felicitous combination of the religious bathing tradition of the Muslim, and the elaborate bathing procedures of the Romans.
A typical hammam includes a warm room, a hot room, and a steam room, with washing facilities, dressing rooms, space for shampooing (often on a raised, marble-covered platform in one of the hot rooms), and areas for relaxation and refreshment. The Roman cold plunge or swimming pool is normally omitted because many Muslims consider that still water (which is, by definition, stagnant water) is ritually unclean, just as Jews require running water for their ritual bath, the mikveh. Where hammams do have a pool as, for example, at Bursa, it is because they can be fed by a natural spring so that the water is constantly changing.
Hammams are to be found wherever there are Muslim communities, and are becoming increasingly popular around the world in day spas, and the more expensive hotels.
Because water is used in the hot rooms, the heat is always humid and often steamy.
2. The Russian steam bath (vapour bath, or banya)
The Russian bath is intended for personal cleansing and for relaxation.
Although they were originally huts or internal rooms constructed in wood, heated by the use of steam or vapour, most such baths today are stand-alone indoor rooms constructed in plastic. They frequently include a shower hose to flush down the seats. Russian baths are increasingly popular in leisure centres, health clubs, and hotels as they are relatively inexpensive to operate and easy to maintain.
The heat is always steamy.
3. The Victorian Turkish bath
The Victorian Turkish bath dates from 1856 and was originally intended for personal cleansing and therapeutic use, only later becoming popular for relaxation.
The body can withstand dry heat at a greater temperature than wet heat, and because the higher temperatures were found to be more effective both in cleansing the body and therapeutically (for example, in alleviating the pain of complaints such as gout or rheumatism) the hot air in the bath was as dry as the technology of the day allowed.
The typical Victorian Turkish bath comprised a number of interconnected hot rooms (usually three, each hotter than the previous one), a cooling-room, showers and perhaps a plunge pool. Later, some establishments additionally provided a steam room, but this was not part of the Victorian Turkish bath process, and was located as far as possible from the dry rooms. Hot air baths had long disappeared in England prior to 1856. When developed in Ireland and Britain in 1856-7 they were initially called Turkish baths because that was how contemporary travellers and travel writers traditionally called the hammams they had seen, mainly in Ottoman Turkey. But from the start, what has increasingly been called the Victorian Turkish bath during the past two decades, was quite different from the hammam.
Although there were hundreds of Victorian Turkish baths opened between 1856 and 1967, both here, in the then British Empire, and beyond (for example in the USA and Germany), today there are only 12 remaining in England and Scotland, and a very few abroad (for example in the Friedrichsbad in Baden-Baden, Germany).
The heat is always dry.
4. The (Finnish) sauna
Long established in Finland and Scandinavia, the sauna only arrived in the UK after World War II, and has become increasingly popular. The sauna is intended for personal cleansing and for relaxation, though it can also be used therapeutically and in childbirth.
The air is heated by a stove which initially produces hot dry air. Bathers then periodically add dripping water to the stove until the humidity is increased to the preferred level.
Like the Russian steam room, the sauna is increasingly popular in leisure centres, health clubs, and hotels as it is relatively inexpensive to operate and easy to maintain.
The humidity of the hot air in the sauna is continually adjusted to suit requirements.
Removing ambiguity
All the above types of bath, with the exception of the sauna (which correctly has its own article in Wikipedia), have at some time or other been called Turkish baths, leading to confusion and, increasingly, culture-related arguments about terminology and purpose. As a starting point for discussion, I suggest that there are three inter-related articles in Wikipedia.
1. Hammam
With redirections from: alternative spellings; Turkish bath
With see also references to: Russian steam bath; Victorian Turkish bath
2. Victorian Turkish bath
With redirections from: Turkish bath
With see also references to: Hammam
3. Russian steam bath
With redirections from: banya; Russian bath; steam bath; vapour bath
With see also references to: Hammam; Victorian Turkish bath
Ishpoloni ( talk) 03:48, 21 June 2016 (UTC) Ishpoloni
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Hammam, which means hot in Tamazight (berbere) and hot in Arabic is said Skhoun. So please return to Caesar what belongs to him and correct your article by replacing Arabic by Amazigh, without the presence of the Arabic alphabet.
Hot baths in North Africa existed long before the appearance of Arabs and Turks in the history of mankind.
Already Wikipedia is losing much of its credibility, if such coarse manipulations persist this would be the end of this site very useful for schoolchildren. -- Adbouz ( talk) 23:02, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Consensus to move as "Hammam" more precisely defines the article scope and is common in English-language reliable sources. Proposal to change the redirect target of "Turkish bath" should be done with a RfD discussion. ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 04:54, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Turkish bath →
Hammam – "Turkish bath" is inaccurate. To repeat a point raised by
R Prazeres, "Hammam" is more precise, more consistent, and reasonably recognizable for this topic (with relevant redirects and links to help readers find the specific topic they want
and should be used per
WP:CRITERIA. This is an institution that developed in places such as Morocco, Iran, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. independently of the Turks.
إيان (
talk) 18:36, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
To best of my knowledge this Hamam is only open for temporary art etc exhibitions and doesn't have a permanent exhibition of finds from Metro excavations (although would be lovely if it did). I was last there in 2018 and never found it open at all. Maybe someone has more recent information? Ealinggirl1954 ( talk) 22:36, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
At the moment there is a piece in the section on Turkish hamams about the country's hot springs. IMO these aren't 'hamams' in the usual understanding of the word - in Turkish they are usually called kaplıcas rather than hamams in recognition of that fact. Would be better to have a new page for them - Hor springs in Turkey? - with a cross-ref at the bottom of the hamam page. Ealinggirl1954 ( talk) 20:07, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
To someone like me with absolutely minimal of knowledge of the Islamic hammam, this article seems to be first class in providing all the information one could wish for as a first introduction to the subject——with one exception, the hammam in the western world. I don't know whether any of the recently built mosques in the UK, for example, have hammams attached, but perhaps there should be an indication of whether this is so or not. Neither do I know whether it would be appropriate to include in this area something about the many hot-air baths based on the hammam which are burgeoning, certainly in the UK, and probably also elsewhere in Europe. These could be standalone hammams such as the one in Liverpool, or the many in hotels around the country. But whether or not appropriate, they would seem to have more connection to the Islamic hammam than the Victorian Turkish bath (VTb).
At present all that appears in this section is a duplicate of the text currently comprising most of the text of the VTb page. This is almost totally unrelated to the hammam, the VTb being basically a 19th century Irish version of the ancient Roman hot dry air baths. All that is needed in the Hammam page is a 'see also' reference the VTb page.
So unless anyone has any serious objection I propose removing the irrelevant text and image, apart from the heading and reference, and hope that anyone with information about the modern hammams in the west will add some helpful material. Ishpoloni ( talk) 12:44, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
I've just made a couple of minor changes to the third sentence in this section, and in doing so confirmed my continung agreement with R Prazeres's earlier view that this section should not be deleted.
There are two or three further changes I would like to suggest:
a. the deletion of the following, which does not seem relevant: 'Before that, the United States, like many other places, had several Russian baths, one of the first being that opened in 1861 by M. Hlasko at his "natatorium" at 219 S. Broad Street, Philadelphia. [1]'
Or, at the very least, stop the sentence after the thirteenth word.
b. I think it would be better to change the image in this section so as to show the interior of a Victorian Turkish bath rather than just the outside of an interesting entrance kiosk. There are many interiors to choose from.
c. The final two references, 118 & 119, only lead to two advertisements, which I thought Wikipedia disallowed—and I suspect that this may have been the reason why the image referred to in (b) above was originally included, although it is just as likely to have been a coincidence. Ishpoloni ( talk) 11:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
References
It is now some time since the article on the Hammam was complemented by a separate article on the Victorian Turkish bath—to distinguish between the two and provide a separate history of the latter. I am currently working on a more structured and sourced article on the Victorian Turkish bath to replace the current one which mainly comprises corrections and additions to the section on the bath before it was separated from the article on the Hammam. I will, of course be looking for any disagreement before making any replacements, and continuously afterwards throughout the process and welcome all comments, factual corrections, etc. If there are no general objections I will give prior notice before changing the various areas of the article.
To this end I have given some advance notice of what I propose and a plan of which areas will be amended first. I have invited comments from all those with an interest in this subject. The current situation appears on the Talk page of the Victorian Turkish bath article, and to avoid unnecessary duplication will not be repeated on this page. I hope this will prove satisfactory and look forward to a healthy discussion with all those interested in the subject. Ishpoloni ( talk) 23:29, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
In the article on Bathing, the section on Hot-air baths had the Main article reference as Victorian Turkish baths. It seemed to me that this was only true in the West and certainly not in the Islamic World. I have therefore added Hammam as an equivalent second main article, with the introductory paragraphs from Hammam added as summary. I hope this is in order. Ishpoloni ( talk) 11:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
The redirect Turkish bath has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 19 § Turkish bath until a consensus is reached. R Prazeres ( talk) 00:22, 20 April 2024 (UTC)