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The dating of the tolkaappiyam supplied (600BC) is probably too far back in time. Most historians place it at 500BC~200BC. Additionally, this article is marred by hyperbole - can the people-who-know update this page with more concrete information?
I am very much interested (and have done some work on this) in contributing material on the scientific manner in which TolKaappiyam describes Tamil Grammar. Will do so in the coming days. Not very much knowledgable about the history though. -- Sundar 14:50, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)
Does some one know the English equivalent of vEtrumai urubu? -- Sundar 11:35, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
It is called cases in english. It is characteristic feature of indian languages. It is called vibhakthi in sanskrit -- {venkat} — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.206.71.61 ( talk) 17:29, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm concerned about the not exactly part. Actually it is the English equivalent, as you know, but the actual position in the sentence syntax is very different from that of Tamil. I remember having read something similar being called a conjugal. -- Sundar 06:14, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
Ya, after coming across that, even I feel that would be appropriate. -- Sundar 12:06, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)
Both this article and Tamil language use the word alphabets in the plural sever times over in contexts which make it quite clear that the correct word should be either letters or characters. Is this a mere oversight or is there some reason for it? — Hippietrail 11:46, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It is alphabet, however the world got it wrong in copy/defining alphabet. The reason is as follws... ... Starting with alphabet, there are many opposing philosophies and some converging philosophies used in both Tamil Grammar and Sanskrit Grammar. It is evident from the definition of alphabet as the names for the "Places of Articulation" [ http://bharani.dli.ernet.in/pmadurai/mp100.html |3.பிறப்பியல்]in Tolkappiyam which was misunderstood and misinterpreted during its journey around the world. The definitions similar to names of phonemes used around the world today are drastically different to the original definition of alphabet as names for the "places of articulation". This alone and many other entities in Tolkappiyam give support to the theory that Tolkappiyam is the oldest written grammar for any language. The acceptance of this theory by IPA and its attempt to link the two forms of alphabet in a meaningful way is another factor that proves that Tolkappiyam predates any other Grammar. - SiSrivas
Got the text from the Tamil language page Tholkappiam-In English with Critical Studies-By Dr.S.IlakkuvanarM.A.M.O.L.Ph.D. Published By: M.Neelamalar,Educational Publishers,52/3 Soundarya colony,Annanagar west,Chennai-600101
Tholkaappiyam is definitely pre 300 BCE. Sangam literature is proven to be 200 BCE - 200 CE based on epigraphical evidences, numismatics, literary citations etc.(for example Dr. I. Mahadevan). Tholkaappiyam is pre-Sangam work (while the existence of 2nd Sangam and 1st Sangam may be questionable, due to lack of concrete evidence other than iRaiyanaar akapporuL, a work of later period, the existence of the so called last sangam is not in doubt. Tholkaappiyam belongs to a period before the 'last' sangam. There are opinions that some parts of it are of later period etc., but the consensus is that it is pre-300 BCE, with very littel dispute. (claiming 500 BCE, 700 BCE etc. require more support). -- Aadal 18:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
What does 'antediluvian' mean here? Nidhishunnikrishnan ( talk) 20:36, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
It is said in the article, 'earning the sobriquet, kannith thamil, which can mean ever-young Tamil or "virgin Tamil".' But the word kanni means either First or 'azhivillaa' (invincible, deathless, endless). The names KanniammaaL, Kanniyappan means one who is invincible (azivillaathavaL/n). KannippOr (kanni+pOr) means maiden war (first participation/debut in war). Kannith thamizh does not mean virgin tamil. It means ever-fresh, unspoiled, ever-vibrant thamizh. In the sense of virgin forest etc. virgin tamil would be correct. -- Aadal 18:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The edit history of Tolkaappiyar says, June 2006, created the page since no page is preexist on this wonderful master piece in Tamil. Someone who knows the subject should obviously merge the duplicated articles. -- Mereda 16:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
According to A Concise History of Classical Sanskrit Literature, By Gaurinath Shastri, The Aindra schools of Sanskrit grammarians was one of a dozen or so ancient sanskrit schools 'each of which is represented by a reputed writer or established reputation'. Indra, or Aindra is mentioned as the first of the grammarians. This was later subplanted by Panini's schools of grammar.
I read a parallel to the legend that Tolkappiyam is based on Agattiyam, the grammar book written by Agastya and that Tolkappiyar was a student of Agastya. 'Was there an ancient Aindra school of grammar? Taittiriya samhita (6.4.7) connects the vedic god Indra to the origin of grammar: "Speech indeed spoke formerly without manifestation (avya krta). The gods said to Indra: 'do manifest this speech forus'... Indra approaching it from the middle made it manifest. Therefore speech is manifest (vya krta)" - From Patanjali's introduction to the Mahabhashya, quoted in Staal, J.F., "Sanskrit Philosophy of Language", Current Trends in Linguistics, 5, pp. 499-531, 1969.'
Panini: a survey of research By George Cardona states that there is no proof that there was indeed an Aindra school of grammar. It also states that this legend was concocted to state that Panini's work was based on older grammatical works of divine origins. It quotes Patanjali's Mahabhasya: '...Bhraspati proclaimed to Indra for a thousand heaven years a complete text of words listed individually and yet he did not get to teh end' (evam hi sruyate: brhaspatir indraya divyam varsa-sahasram prati-paroktanam sabdanam sabda-parayanam provaca nantam jagama. On the bases of such passages, it has been supposed that there was a grammar (vyakarana) by Indra (hence called Aindra), the pupil of Brahaspati. Conclusion: Sastri's claim is simply a means to note that Tolkappiyam was ancient by alluding to the legends that it was based on the grammar of Agastya and Indra.
I am removing the mention about the Aindra school based on the above argument. - Parthi talk/ contribs 01:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys its seems like that Sanskrit lover are always irked with Tamil language and this inclusion and discussion about the a school that doesnt even have existence prove is discussed and that too in the first passage. Hats off to your dedicated love to "Hamara Bharat" slogan, i think it goes only for non-hindi speakers. Get off from this page and do something usefull for the country.
YOU IDIOTS FOR YOUR INFORMATION THE NAME THOLKAPIAM MEANS 'OLD LITERATURE' AND SINCE NAME IS DATED FROM THE COPY VERSION AND ACTUAL PERIOD OF HIS OR HER LIFE TIME IS NOT KNOWN, EVEN HIS NAME IS NOT KNOWN THATS WHY THE NAME OF THE LITERATURE IS GIVEN AFTER THE BOOK. AND YOU IDIOTS WITH KIDNEY IN HEAD ARE ARGUING THAT HE IS RELATED TO A BULL SHIT HEAD. HA HA DONT EXPOSE YOUR KNOWLEDGE.-- Rxasgomez 21:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please include translations of the chapter names when they are listed?
-- Selket 17:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Influence of Sanskrit grammarians
See also: Aindra school of grammar
Tolkāppiyam is claimed to have been modelled on the Sanskrit grammar of the Aindra school.[1] The preface of Ilampuranar's twelfth century commentary of the Tolkappiyam, describes it as aindiram nirainda ('comprising aindra').[2]. This annotation was interpreted by Arthur Coke Burnell as alluding to the pre-Paninian Aindra school of Sanskrit grammar mentioned in the Ashtadhyayi. To investigate his hunch, Burnell compared the Tolkappiyam with the non Paninian Katyantra grammar and concluded that the Tolkappiyam indeed exhibited a strong influence of the non Paninian school of grammar.[3] However, this claim has also been met with skepticism from recent researchers.[4][5]
Is it relevant to this artica and especially Aindra school of grammer story? Its very much racially manipulated passage.
The dating of the tolkaappiyam supplied (600BC) is probably too far back in time. Most historians place it at 7th to 10th century AD. It cannot be before that. Simply because of pulli. Pulli concept is one of the distinguishing feature among the tamil characters. Although it is not unique and brahmi also has pulli. It is distinguished by placement . According to Tholkappiam which talks about pulli and its position, that is on top of the alphabet instead of side as in Brahmi. This is also one of the characteristics of tamil brahmi according to Mr. Mahadevan. The first inscription of this type of pulli is in vallam by pallvas dated 7-8th century AD. --comment was originally added by MGC22T ( talk · contribs) Sarvagnya 10:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Sarvagna has added the following passage:
“ | The issue of the Aindra school notwithstanding, the grammar expounded by the Tolkappiyam owes a great deal to Sanskrit.[11] The influence of various Sanskrit works like Manavadharmashastra, Arthashastra, Natyashastra and grammarians like Panini and Patanjali is evident in the Tolkappiyam.[12] Parts of the Collathikaram are, for instance, almost a direct translation of the Sanskrit texts.[13] The eight feelings mentioned in the Porulathikaram seem to be heavily inspired by the eight rasas or the rasa theory of the Natyashastra.[14][15] | ” |
I'll assume good faith and wait for Sarvagna to provide proper reference information including quotes and page numbers (instead of simply 'Hart' or 'Zvelebil' etc). Failing that this passage will be deleted as OR. Parthi talk/ contribs 22:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I have done the hard work and found the missing citations for the POV text. I have tried to de-POV the passage on the influence of Sanskrit with appropriate quotes from Zvelebil's book. However thre is one sentence I couldn't find any refs for:
“ | The eight feelings mentioned in the Porulathikaram seem to be heavily inspired by the eight rasas or the rasa theory of the Natyashastra.[14][15] | ” |
The original author will need to provide the citations for this. 'Pompous' Parthi talk/ contribs 23:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Sarvagnya: You are giving book citations without page numbers. If the page numbers are given it would allow for verifiability (If you could quote relevant portion, it will be great, but provide page numbers at least). Praveen 22:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
meghamitra 07:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC) Pulli theory Nobody is willing to accept the pulli theory just because it shows the real time the Tholkappiam is written. There are lot of references that show that tholkappiam is of later time. According to Tholkappiam which talks about pulli and its position, that is on top of the alphabet instead of side as in Brahmi. This is also one of the characteristics of tamil brahmi according to Mr. Mahadevan. The first inscription of this type of pulli is in vallam by pallvas dated 7-8th century AD by Mahendra varman pallava.
Here is what even Mahadevan writes about puLLi and TolkAppiyam in his 2003 book: "Judging from the available evidence of the earliest occurrences of the puLLi from about the end of the 1st century AD, TolkAppiyam was composed most probably not earlier than the Late Tamil-Brahmi Period (ca. 2nd-4th centuries A.D.)."
Sangam literature does not confirm to tholkappiam is yet another matter.
meghamitra 11:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC) Iraiyanar Agapporul is dated 10-12th century AD in tamil history page. he cannot be before 10th century AD as he is said to have written on the sangams periods and last sangam as 1000AD . So he should be of later period
Under this section do we have any citations for influence of Pali and Prakrit grammar upon Tolkapiyam (via Buddhist and Jaina influences) Was the Sanskrit influence direct or indirect via Pali and other Prakrits ? Just a thought. Thanks Taprobanus 13:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Right, now. What, precisely, is "weasel" about these words? The question of the overall relationship between the Tolkappiyam and the schools of Sanskrit grammer is both wider and more general than the question of whether specific rules have been influenced by Sanskrit texts or not. -- Arvind 17:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
A good while ago, I had added a reference to Rajam's analysis of the similarities and differences between the Tolkappiyam and various Sanskrit grammars in the section on Sanskritic influences. This appears to have been removed at some stage. Was there any specific reason for this? -- Arvind 10:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Right, I've rewritten the second paragraph of this section, based on what the cited sources actually say. The most substantive changes that've resulted are that:
I have not at this stage added any new sources, though there are a number that should be in here. Scharfe, for example, should be cited, and the views of both Hart and Zvelebil should be considered in some more detail. There's even more to be done as far as the question of Sanskrit influences on the Porulatikaram is concerned - this section doesn't really even begin to touch on the debate. It seems to me that the best way forward is to put together an article on Sanskrit influences in the Tolkappiyam or some such title, and once that's done, summarise it briefly for this section. I won't be able to get started on this till I'm done moving house (as things stand, almost all my Indological books are neatly packed in cartons), but if anyone'd like to take a crack, I'd welcome it. -- Arvind 22:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Editors I find the article surprisingly inaccurate on quite a few aspects given the recently witnessed discussions and history on the rigor for some edits. There is too much mention of Tolkappiyam dealing with writing, characters, optimal writing etc. We need t correct this. Also it is wrong for the Overview section to claim etymology is a subject of Tolkappiyam. Tamil grammatical tradition has conspicuously avoided etymologizing in stark contrast to Sanskrit.
Also dating aspects should clearly mention that the range of 1st century BC to 5th century AD is based on various layers/divisions not for the whole entity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Perichandra1 ( talk • contribs) 15:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
That the Tolkappiyam is usually treated by modern scholars as having various layers dating from different periods is not "BS". It's pretty well settled in modern scholarship. Obviously, 19th century authors and modern authors who aren't formally trained in this area won't advert to it, but all serious scholars accept that the text of the Tolkappiyam as we have it is stratified, with different layers dating to different dates. I'm not sure it makes sense to cite 19th and early-20th century scholarship to rebut late-20th century scholarship that applies newer techniques. -- Arvind 17:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I rolled back to the earlier version as two large paragraphs of referenced text were removed. Anyone know why it was done? -- Nate1481( t/ c) 16:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
-- Aadal ( talk) 00:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Sourceless claims with the title Influence of Sanskrit. The content under the title is "copy paste" from the blog [1]. The references provided do not endorse the claim. The title changed to Other Claims. Kavitha Swaminathan ( talk) 07:36, 24 May 2015 (UTC) Reordering "Proposed Dates" under Other claims.
References
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தொல்காப்பிய நூல் முழுமைக்கும் உரை எழுதிய இளம்பூரணர், தொல்காப்பியர் கூறும் ஆகுபெயர்களில் ஒன்றான 'வினைமுதல் உரைக்கும் கிளவி என்பதற்குத் 'தொல்காப்பியம்' என்னும் எடுத்துக்காட்டினைத் தந்துள்ளார். (2-3-31) இது தொல்காப்பியர் செய்தது தொல்காப்பியம் என்னும் கருத்தை வலியுறுத்துகிறது.
அகத்தியர் செய்தது அகத்தியம். பன்னிருவர் செய்தது பன்னிரு படலம். இந்திரன் செய்தது ஐந்திரம். காக்கை பாடினியார் செய்தது காக்கைபாடினியம். பல்காப்பியனார் செய்தது பல்காப்பியம். திருமூலர் செய்தது திருமூலம். இப்படித் தொல்காப்பியத்துக்கு முந்திய இலக்கண நூலும், தொல்காப்பியத்தை முதல்-நூலாகக் கொண்ட தமிழின் பழமையான இலக்கண நூல்களில் பலவும், பிறவும் ஆசிரியராலேயே பெயர் பெற்றுள்ளன. இந்த வகையில் தொல்காப்பியர் செய்தது தொல்காப்பிம் எனக் கொள்வதே முறைமை.
கபிலர், தொல்கபிலர், பரணர், வன்பரணர் என வேறுபடுத்தப்படும் புலவர்களை நாம் அறிவோம். அதுபோலக் காப்பியனார் என்னும் பெயரில் தொல்காப்பியனார், பல்காப்பியனார், காப்பியாற்றுக் காப்பியனார் என்னும் புலவர்கள் இருந்துவந்ததை வரலாறு காட்டுகிறது.
தொல்காப்பியப் பாயிரம் “புலம் தொகுத்தோன் … ஐந்திரம் நிறைந்த தொல்காப்பியன் எனத் தன் பெயர் தோற்றிப் பல்புகழ் நிறுத்த படிமையோன்” என்று கூறுகிறது. இதில் தொல்காப்பியன் புலம்(=இலக்கணம்) தொகுத்தான் என்பது தெளிவுபடுத்தப்பட்டுள்ளது.
இவற்றை விடுத்துத் தொல்காப்பியம் செய்தவர் தொல்காப்பியர் எனக் கூறுவோர் வரலாற்றை எண்ணிப்பார்க்க வேண்டும். kind -- Sengai Podhuvan ( talk) 21:54, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
I have read through this article and past comments on this talk page. This version of the article is in bad shape and hardly reflects the mainstream scholarship on Tolkāppiyam. I will update it. Comments/discussion welcome, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 00:09, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
It's so long. Too long, as a matter of fact. Is there anything we can do about it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.53.218.5 ( talk) 21:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)