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Please add a link to < http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/>, which is editing and publishing all of the correspondence of Charles Darwin. Thomas Huxley was a significant correspondent of Darwin. Eadp 15:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
OK if TH was not a Privy Counciller he is not entitled to a Rt Hon, unless he is the son of a Duke, which he wasn't. I have no idea, and don't have a biography handy. Anyone who can clarify please do.-- Michael Johnson 00:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Title of Right Honourable is only used for those MPs who are PCs. This is because all forms of address in the House of Commons are prescribed: members are Honourable Members; if they are also PCs they are Rt Hon; and if they are also QCs then they are Rt Hon and Learned (!!) It is an historical practice to control abuse and conflict in the House. In modern times at least the title Rt Hon is not used in general life in Britain, but it is proper to place the initials PC after your name. Macdonald-Ross, 31st March 2007.
There seems to be a display issue with the first two lines of External links, but I don't know enough about templates to fix it.-- Hatch68 18:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
The breakdown of Huxley's races was jumbled and difficult. I cleaned it up, no content changed. Now it reads from the largest groups first, not putting it in the middle. Saint yondo 12:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I see much work has gone into this, but it has thrown the balance of the Huxley entry somewhat out of kilter by its length and detail. The topic is not one of the most important in Huxley's life, and none of his biographers has ever suggested it was. Also, the source was not a book, but a journal paper. One of the things we should aim for is to achieve a balance, which is hard to do! However, I think this section is rather overcooked. Macdonald-ross 20:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Several links in the racial listing section are hyperlinked back to this page. This should be corrected by anyone that could write articles with sufficient information.
Absolute Zerr
23:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I intend to do some study on the racial listing sometime soon. Saint yondo 12:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
This section really cannot stay as is, just a list of names and no account of H's ideas. Nor is it worth a separate section in any case, for reasons given above. It's out of keeping with the biography as a whole. I propose to write a simple para and put in it place within an existing section. Macdonald-ross 14:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Experiments with layout have revealed that the software available for layout in Wiki is rather limited, especially for quotes and verse. Anyone who has used PageMaker will know what we are missing! Therefore I've used the simplest facilities which produce a good result; but it would also help if everyone else would stop trying to be brilliant...
The second point is to remember that a pattern of spelling/ refs/ layout (&c) once stable in an article should be adhered to; never mind what choices are made elsewhere, the choices here are reasonable, within Wiki guidelines &c &c.
The third point is that unless you spot a clear mistake (give refs!) or a clear omission (give refs!) then please don't tinker! There are so many stubs that need work that anyone who has time to spare can find something useful to do. That's where help is really needed. Macdonald-ross 14:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I've avoided expanding the account of the famous debate in the main page whilst being aware that for some hist/sci buffs it's the bees knees! On the main page is what seems objectively true, namely, that the Hux-Owen controversies were more important and in the long run more decisive in turning minds in the Darwinian direction. The problem with the H/W debate is not just the conflicting accounts but also a general lack of appreciation of what the BA meetings were at the time.
Hux already has a reasonable sub-page on THH and agnosticism (not by me) and the bot keeps telling me the page is too long, so I'm going to write an account of the debate offline and get an editor to read it before springing it on the system as a sub-page. Macdonald-ross 14:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Things seem a bit disorganised at present: to illustrate an approach which I've found useful, I've added a "Sources" subsection to the "Notes and references", with Darwin's life and letters formatted using Template:Citation so that if you click on the citation "Darwin (1887)" it acts as a link taking you to that source. This trick doesn't work with the "Cite book" etc. templates which have been used elsewhere. The alternatives are described at Wikipedia:Citation templates. The Wikipedia:Guide to layout recommends using the "Notes" section for Harvard citations and other notes, with a separate "References" section rather than the "Sources" subsection I've added – as you'll see from Wikipedia talk:Guide to layout#Separate Notes and Citation sections, there are a number of options and various opinions about what to use: the important thing is to find consensus on this talk page then try to stick to a uniform format on the page. .. dave souza, talk 10:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Good stuff. I'm a bit overloaded just now, but will try to assist as much as poss. The inline links at Charles Darwin should take you to a short Harvard reference in its "Citations" section, which in turn links down to the relevant detailed reference in the "References" section. We can get the same effect here by using the Template:Citation in the "References" section. Here's info from Wikipedia:Guide to layout#Standard appendices and descriptions with my comments added. It says that "Certain optional standard sections should be added at the bottom of an article." and shows "Common appendix sections":
Hope this gives a basis for progress. Several of the references at Charles Darwin can be used here, ask me first as they're using a slightly outdated template and I've already updated a couple but have left them uniform at Cs. See DarwinOnline as a source for some of the references mentioned here. Will keep in tough, don't hesitate to ask me any questions that come up – can't guarantee being able to answer! .. dave souza, talk 16:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
More than a year ago, this article was moved from Thomas Henry Huxley to Thomas Huxley on the rather dubious premise that the latter is the "mre coommon name" [sic]. In fact, I've almost never seen him called "Thomas Huxley." I've almost always seen either T.H. Huxley or the full name. I have no preference between T.H. Huxley and Thomas Henry Huxley, but the article certainly shouldn't be here. Any other opinions on this? john k 05:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I just now rearranged the name of Linda Holland and added a somewhat more-complete reference. The paper's description and citation are here. Somewhat may want to clean up the format I used. - Nice article! - Astrochemist 20:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Can anybody track down / make any necessary redirects / start article if necessary for " Kowalesky" per letter of Thomas Huxley [1] - "Kowalesky could never have announced his great discovery of the affinity of the Ascidians and Vertebrates, by which zoologists had been startled." -- May be AKA "Kowalski", but I can't find a likely reference. -- (Hmm, Kazimierz Kowalski? - in which case we need an article.) -- Writtenonsand 14:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Not that it's a vital point, but what do others think about the UK flag on this article, which Rangek has deleted twice, and clearly believes is wrongly used? It doesn't seem to violate anything in Wikipedia:FLAGS#Biographical_use section. Are we to remove them from all biographies? Is there a clear-cut ruling on this issue, which somehow I've missed? Macdonald-ross ( talk) 11:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
1. Rt. Hon. as a prefix is not used in British life except for Members of Parliament, even though they may be Privy Counsellors. So it comes off the box. This is the second time I've explained this.
2. Debate with Wilberforce: "However, historical research has severely called into question the authenticity of this supposed exchange." is a gross over-statement, and the reference given is quite one-sided. The para should stand as originally written, with the issue left balanced between the two views. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 13:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
This is not the first time: Huxley did not take his 2nd MB; he was no-one's doctoral student and none of his students were doctoral candidates. It is ridiculous to use modern terminology for 19thC figures whose whole life and career was so different from those of today. I had vainly hoped this was clear from the content of the article! There is no objection to giving credit to such as Thomas Wharton Jones providing a way can be found to avoid nonsense terms in the box. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 14:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The comment to this edit correctly says that "evolution per se was not darwin's original theory. rather, it was the natural selection which produces that evolution", but the edit misses the point that Huxley became known for advocacy of evolution rather than natural selection, so I've undone it. The cited source carefully states that "Huxley's vigorous public support of Charles Darwin's evolutionary naturalism earned him the nickname 'Darwin's bulldog'," avoiding any mention of natural selection. Browne makes interesting points about Huxley's article in the Westminster Review expressing his doubts about natural selection which could ideally be added to the relevant section, which already mekes it clear that Huxley never lost those doubts. ... dave souza, talk 14:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Sometimes the excess of research causes the more obvious links to be lost to sight, but WP has many eyes. -- Wloveral ( talk) 23:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The American Civil War, the situation of slaves and everything connected, was not really central to H's life, but for those interested an account is in Desmond vol 2, 325 et seq. He was in favour of the North, and thought it absurd to think that negros were a different species. But his opposition to slavery was not of the Darwin/Wilberforce kind. Those two families were against slavery root and branch for moral reasons; Huxley seemed to think it was bad economics, and inconsistent with the political freedom Americans aspired to.
I've kept out short quotations on this topic out of the article because they need so much context to be interpreted. And as side issues to the biography, the topic would take up space in an article which is quite long enough. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 13:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the quotations section, per this policy ("If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into our sister project Wikiquote"). If any of these quotes belong in the article, they should be integrated into the text in the appropriate place, not dumped into a stand-alone quotations section. Regards, Polemarchus ( talk) 02:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Reinstated here so others can see what was taken out:
- Abram, Abraham became
- By will divine
- Let pickled Brian's name
- Be changed to Brine!
— THH Poem in letter to J.D. Hooker 4th Dec 1894, on hearing that JDH's son had fallen into a salt vat. [3]
References
There are also many obituary notices in newspapers, periodicals and reference works.
Macdonald-ross ( talk) 21:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Having an entire section on quotations is not a good idea as it does step on wikiquotes. I did notice that the "The doctrine that all men are, in any sense, or have been at any time, free and equal, is an utterly baseless fiction." quote is not in the wikiquote page and if you have a source for it. It should be. Qoutations can be a good way to make a point and some of these quotations are powerful and important enough (and short enough) to include in the article but they should be worked into the text of the appropropriate section not grouped together into an extra section. For example I can't understand why the famous "How extremely stupid [of me] not to have thought of that" quote is not in the Darwin's bulldog section. As for the comments about Huxley, they could be combined with the material on satires in a "Perception of Huxley" or "Reaction to Huxley section", or better still, given that this article already too long, would be to create a child article per WP:SUM and move the "satire" section there along with this material. Some of the material on the biographies could go there as well, but any comments about the merits of a book should cite a published 3rd party source. In general, while there is some outstanding material here, this article could use some pruning per WP:SUM to make it shorter and tighter. For example, it is good to allude to the fact that his teacher was an assitent to the doctor Knox of the Burk and Hare scandal, but quoting the nursery rhyme, which is reproduced in the Burk and Hare article, in this article and going into such detail about Wharton's role is overkill for an article on Huxley. Over length articles are not just a policy problem. They make it difficult for someone looking for a quick overview of a topic to see the forrest for the trees. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 19:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
The illustration Waterbabies1863.gif has vanished!! And there's no sign of it in Commons. I had thought, in my innocence, that once uploaded properly the images were meant to be permanently available. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 08:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
There has been some to & fro about date format. I plan to standardise on the original form, which was 4 May and not May 4. And change "1860 to 1863" to "1860–63", &c. Anyone who thinks differently can read the WP guidelines, namely WP:DATE. And then leave it alone, please! Macdonald-ross ( talk) 17:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Normally in the animal kingdom, a group that shows a different appearance etc would be classed as a sub species, is this not the case in humans because people would call it racism? Smeeee ( talk) 14:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Rt. Hon. as a prefix is not used in British life except for Members of Parliament, even though the person may be a Privy Counsellor. It's just a question of usage. So it comes off the box. This is the third time I've explained this. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 08:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Contributors should not promote their own work, nor should their relatives, friends, students &c. A well-mannered note on this page is enough! If a new book needs to be noticed, or an alternative point of view expressed, it will get done by someone who is not an interested party. That's fundamental to the way we work as a community.
The other angle is consensus. The article represents many contributions to the literature on Huxley, and recent changes, however worthy, were out of line with the consensus. Nevertheless, after a decent interval for purchasing a book and reading it, some more changes may be expected. For the moment, the new book is referenced in the article.
On classification: the erection of a whole sub-class for Homo sapiens is zoologically a huge statement. Suffice it it to say that, in the opinion of most zoologists, no new sub-class of mammals has arisen in the Cainozoic. Thus the decision by Richard Owen to elevate man to a sub-class of his own cannot easily be swept under the carpet. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 17:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Bowler that a lot was "in flux" in the 19th century that is not in flux today. Understanding the fluxes of past times is what makes history hard...and it makes resisting being overly judgmental when we read older scientists difficult. As far as Owen's subclass, it was a much smaller deal in 1857, than it would be in 2009. In Aristotle's biology living things are divided into those with only nutritive souls (plants), nutritive souls and sensitive souls (animals), and nutritive souls, sensitive souls, and intellects (rational animals). That way of thinking took hold in Western science and thought. Linnaeus only introduced his system in 1735, and by 1857 Cuvier had already made man a distinct order. In his paper Owen wanted to use the brain...and that meant not just thinking about brain growth in humans, but also using the corpus callosum as a character.
Cosans (
talk)
04:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I think there are significant limitations of the Wikipedia’s Huxley article’s account of his and Owen’s debate over whether the brain distinguishes humans as a subclass. I have read all of what Owen Huxley wrote on this from the 1830s to the late 1860s, as well as everything that different historians and philosophers of science have written about it. I have also done some dissections on ape and human brains to see their perspectives. I have tried to add to the account what each side thought were the most important details in their dispute. There were lots of details in the dispute and I tried to not overwhelm the reader with them. There is a great deal of other things I think our readers should learn and remember about Huxley’s work.
CURRENT VERSION A key event had already occurred in 1857 when Richard Owen presented (to the Linnean Society) his view that man was marked off from all other mammals by possessing features of the brain peculiar to the genus Homo. Having reached this opinion, Owen separated man from all other mammals in a subclass of its own. [1] No other biologist held such an extreme view. Darwin reacted "Man...as distinct from a chimpanzee [as] an ape from a platypus... I cannot swallow that!" [2] Neither could Huxley, who was able to demonstrate that Owen's idea was completely wrong.
SUGGESTED REVISION A key event had already occurred in 1857 when Richard Owen presented (to the Linnean Society) his view that man was marked off from all other mammals by possessing features of the brain peculiar to the genus Homo. In the paper, Owen argued that mammals could be divided into four subclasses based on increasing levels of brain development: the Lyencephala (loosed brained), which lacked a corpus callosum and have smooth cerebral hemispheres, the Lissenephala (smoothed brained), which have a corpus callosum but have smooth cerebral hemispheres, the Gyencephala(gyried brained), which have such expanded cerebral hemispheres that they have lots of gyri or convolutions on their surface, and the Archencephala(ruling brain), which have much larger cerebral hemispheres. [3] Humans were the only animal with cerebral hemispheres large enough with respect to their body to be ranked as Archencephala, and this distinction goes back to his 1851 paper in which he noted that the smallest human group had brains more than twice the size of the largest reported ape brain from a male gorilla, even though the male gorilla was much larger than the human. [4] To delineate the development of the human brain further Owen cited consciousness, which he associated with brain size, and three structures as lacking in subclasses below Archencephala: the posterior lobe, the posterior horn of the lateral ventricle and its floor the hippocampus minor. The three structures had been previously reported as either absent or poorly developed in other mammals, but no other biologist had so bluntly proclaimed their absence. Darwin reacted "Man...as distinct from a chimpanzee [as] an ape from a platypus... I cannot swallow that!" [5] Neither could Huxley, who was able to publicly raise many doubts about Owen's idea. Darwin's remark missed Owen's technical distinction since the chimp as a Gyencephala was one level below humans, but two levels above a platypus, which was a member of the Lyencephala, and Owen's failure to fully communicate his more complex ideas foretold the events that were to come.
ISSUES INVOLVED IN THE REVISION: The statement “Owen’s idea was completely wrong” is overly simplistic. The revised version spells out exactly what Owen said. One might ask if we want to add that level of detail, however. Part of what happened in the debate with Owen and Huxley is that Owen would offer a complex anatomical account that was hard for lay people to follow, and Huxley would counter it with an account that was easy for lay people to understand, but that did not really address the point Owen made. The big mistake Owen made was declaring there is “no” hippocampus minor in apes, rather than what he later argued that there was only a “poorly developed one”. In the lab what you call a hippocampus minor is to some degree a matter of convention. The chimp brain is a lot smaller than a human brain, and there simply is not that much room for the lateral ventricle to course backwards. We have to remember that chimps were very rare in England in 1857 and Owen may have only had the chance to dissect a few of them. Maybe the last chimp brain he saw really didn’t have a hippocampus minor. Others had reported it as poorly developed. I think in many ways the hippocampus minor is a red herring, at least if we are trying to understand Owen. Owen thought the big picture was the human brain was so much larger. I think explaining how Darwin’s quote did not capture what Owen actually said is a good one. If you read both Owen and Huxley throughout the debate as an anatomist, you constantly see Owen mentioning many details, and Huxley countering by not grasping Owen’s point and focusing in on one. If you look at Owen’s 1857 paper, I think you will see Owen agrees with Darwin…the chimp brain that Owen shows looks a more like the human brain that he shows in that paper than either does with the opossum brain that Owen shows. Owen uses the opossum brain as an example of the brain of a Lyencephala, so that is what we would imagine a platypus would look like. Owen was very interested in the anatomy of the platypus by the way.
CURRENT VERSION
In 1862 at the Cambridge meeting of the B.A. Huxley's friend
William Flower gave a public dissection to show that the same structures (the posterior horn of the lateral ventricle and hippocampus minor) were indeed present in apes. Thus was exposed one of Owen's greatest blunders, revealing Huxley as not only dangerous in debate, but also a better anatomist.
SUGGESTED REVISION In 1862 at the Cambridge meeting of the B.A. Huxley's friend William Flower gave a public dissection to show that a version of the posterior horn of the lateral ventricle and hippocampus minor were indeed present in apes. Owen conceded that there was something that could be called a hippocampus minor in the apes, but stated that it was much less developed and that such a presence did not detract from the over all distinction of simple brain size. [6] Thus was exposed one of Owen's greatest blunders, as Huxley continued to use his point about the hippocampus minor to blur any efforts of Owen to distinguish apes and humans, and revealed Huxley as dangerous in debate. Huxley further argued that racial differences thwarted Owen's efforts to cite brain size as a distinguishing character of humans. [7]
ISSUES INVOLVED IN THE REVISION: I added specific details of exactly what was at stake with the brain debate, and what position each person took. I like the style of the original sentence “Huxley as not only dangerous in debate, but also a better anatomist”, and tried to retain some of it in the revision. The problem is “was a better anatomist”, depends on how you define “better”. Owen was much more detailed, while Huxley gave an account that was easier for lay people to understand. I think it is note worthy, that while Owen addressed Huxley’s claim and conceded there was a hippocampus minor in apes, Huxley never responded to Owen’s argument about them not being even a rudiment. In his 1859 gorilla paper Owen shows a picture of the shape of the hippocampus minor, while in his 1863 book Huxley makes a big point over the fact that he can show a picture of a hippocampus minor in a chimp, which has similar development to that that Owen himself had acknowledge as present in the gorilla in 1859.
Cosans ( talk) 03:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I think there are significant limitations of the Wikipedia’s Huxley article’s account of his and Owen’s debate over whether the brain distinguishes humans as a subclass. I have read all of what Owen Huxley wrote on this from the 1830s to the late 1860s, as well as everything that different historians and philosophers of science have written about it. I have also done some dissections on ape and human brains to see their perspectives. I have tried to add to the account what each side thought were the most important details in their dispute. There were lots of details in the dispute and I tried to not overwhelm the reader with them. There is a great deal of other things I think our readers should learn and remember about Huxley’s work.
CURRENT VERSION A key event had already occurred in 1857 when Richard Owen presented (to the Linnean Society) his view that man was marked off from all other mammals by possessing features of the brain peculiar to the genus Homo. Having reached this opinion, Owen separated man from all other mammals in a subclass of its own. [8] No other biologist held such an extreme view. Darwin reacted "Man...as distinct from a chimpanzee [as] an ape from a platypus... I cannot swallow that!" [9] Neither could Huxley, who was able to demonstrate that Owen's idea was completely wrong.
SUGGESTED REVISION A key event had already occurred in 1857 when Richard Owen presented (to the Linnean Society) his view that man was marked off from all other mammals by possessing features of the brain peculiar to the genus Homo. In the paper, Owen argued that mammals could be divided into four subclasses based on increasing levels of brain development: the Lyencephala (loosed brained), which lacked a corpus callosum and have smooth cerebral hemispheres, the Lissenephala (smoothed brained), which have a corpus callosum but have smooth cerebral hemispheres, the Gyencephala(gyried brained), which have such expanded cerebral hemispheres that they have lots of gyri or convolutions on their surface, and the Archencephala(ruling brain), which have much larger cerebral hemispheres. [10] Humans were the only animal with cerebral hemispheres large enough with respect to their body to be ranked as Archencephala, and this distinction goes back to his 1851 paper in which he noted that the smallest human group had brains more than twice the size of the largest reported ape brain from a male gorilla, even though the male gorilla was much larger than the human. [11] To delineate the development of the human brain further Owen cited consciousness, which he associated with brain size, and three structures as lacking in subclasses below Archencephala: the posterior lobe, the posterior horn of the lateral ventricle and its floor the hippocampus minor. The three structures had been previously reported as either absent or poorly developed in other mammals, but no other biologist had so bluntly proclaimed their absence. Darwin reacted "Man...as distinct from a chimpanzee [as] an ape from a platypus... I cannot swallow that!" [12] Neither could Huxley, who was able to publicly raise many doubts about Owen's idea. Darwin's remark missed Owen's technical distinction since the chimp as a Gyencephala was one level below humans, but two levels above a platypus, which was a member of the Lyencephala, and Owen's failure to fully communicate his more complex ideas foretold the events that were to come.
ISSUES INVOLVED IN THE REVISION: The statement “Owen’s idea was completely wrong” is overly simplistic. The revised version spells out exactly what Owen said. One might ask if we want to add that level of detail, however. Part of what happened in the debate with Owen and Huxley is that Owen would offer a complex anatomical account that was hard for lay people to follow, and Huxley would counter it with an account that was easy for lay people to understand, but that did not really address the point Owen made. The big mistake Owen made was declaring there is “no” hippocampus minor in apes, rather than what he later argued that there was only a “poorly developed one”. In the lab what you call a hippocampus minor is to some degree a matter of convention. The chimp brain is a lot smaller than a human brain, and there simply is not that much room for the lateral ventricle to course backwards. We have to remember that chimps were very rare in England in 1857 and Owen may have only had the chance to dissect a few of them. Maybe the last chimp brain he saw really didn’t have a hippocampus minor. Others had reported it as poorly developed. I think in many ways the hippocampus minor is a red herring, at least if we are trying to understand Owen. Owen thought the big picture was the human brain was so much larger. I think explaining how Darwin’s quote did not capture what Owen actually said is a good one. If you read both Owen and Huxley throughout the debate as an anatomist, you constantly see Owen mentioning many details, and Huxley countering by not grasping Owen’s point and focusing in on one. If you look at Owen’s 1857 paper, I think you will see Owen agrees with Darwin…the chimp brain that Owen shows looks a more like the human brain that he shows in that paper than either does with the opossum brain that Owen shows. Owen uses the opossum brain as an example of the brain of a Lyencephala, so that is what we would imagine a platypus would look like. Owen was very interested in the anatomy of the platypus by the way.
CURRENT VERSION
In 1862 at the Cambridge meeting of the B.A. Huxley's friend
William Flower gave a public dissection to show that the same structures (the posterior horn of the lateral ventricle and hippocampus minor) were indeed present in apes. Thus was exposed one of Owen's greatest blunders, revealing Huxley as not only dangerous in debate, but also a better anatomist.
SUGGESTED REVISION In 1862 at the Cambridge meeting of the B.A. Huxley's friend William Flower gave a public dissection to show that a version of the posterior horn of the lateral ventricle and hippocampus minor were indeed present in apes. Owen conceded that there was something that could be called a hippocampus minor in the apes, but stated that it was much less developed and that such a presence did not detract from the over all distinction of simple brain size. [13] Thus was exposed one of Owen's greatest blunders, as Huxley continued to use his point about the hippocampus minor to blur any efforts of Owen to distinguish apes and humans, and revealed Huxley as dangerous in debate. Huxley further argued that racial differences thwarted Owen's efforts to cite brain size as a distinguishing character of humans. [14]
ISSUES INVOLVED IN THE REVISION: I added specific details of exactly what was at stake with the brain debate, and what position each person took. I like the style of the original sentence “Huxley as not only dangerous in debate, but also a better anatomist”, and tried to retain some of it in the revision. The problem is “was a better anatomist”, depends on how you define “better”. Owen was much more detailed, while Huxley gave an account that was easier for lay people to understand. I think it is note worthy, that while Owen addressed Huxley’s claim and conceded there was a hippocampus minor in apes, Huxley never responded to Owen’s argument about them not being even a rudiment. In his 1859 gorilla paper Owen shows a picture of the shape of the hippocampus minor, while in his 1863 book Huxley makes a big point over the fact that he can show a picture of a hippocampus minor in a chimp, which has similar development to that that Owen himself had acknowledge as present in the gorilla in 1859.
Cosans ( talk) 03:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
References
In all the articles to which I've been able to contribute I cannot remember an author going so far to promote his own ideas. I have to say that this could damage WP if it became a widespread practice.
Most of the suggestions would lengthen an already over-long article, and run counter to most of the published biographical and critical work on Huxley. Obviously, recognition of a newly published view needs to be given, but not disproportionately. The existing text is heavily referenced, and none of those references present such a view of Owens as Cosens suggests -- but at the same time, it's good to see more on Owen.
Personally, I would like a decent break to find and read a copy of Cosen's book before getting into this debate in detail. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 15:54, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughts Ross. I think there is a real issue on how to write about the clash between Huxley and Owen from an NPOV without taking up too much space. The original version did not explain Owen's perspective at all, but Owen's perspective was so detailed that it is hard to summarize it without giving the reader a false impression. The original version states Huxley was "a better anatomist" as if his position was The Truth. The question on whether Owen was reasonable or unreasonable to bump humans from a separate Order to a Subclass, also depends on your point of view....Owen thought it was a good idea, Huxley wanted to bump humans down to a Genus. The new book is not that radical, and pretty much gives the same picture you get of Owen in the Richards 1987 article, Rupke's 1994 book, and Smith's 1997 paper. It also attempts to give full accounts of both Darwin's and Huxley's perspectives as they would articulate them, in addition to the claims of Owen. I have posted a call for people to bring in more of the scholarship on Owen on the Owen discussion page and I give citations for the key works there. I am surprised more researchers have not taken the time to help out with your articles. I have also published a lot of stuff on Galen and when I looked at that page I found the following sentence in the introduction: "They, however, had the convenience of vivisection that was not permitted in Rome in Galenus' time." The fact is that tons of vivisection was done from Aristotle through Galen, and Galen was famous for doing public vivisections of pigs in Rome. My guess is that whoever wrote that meant human dissection, which was allowed in Hellenistic Alexandra but banded in Rome. Anyone who has written articles or books on Galen, would see the original claim as problematic. Cosans ( talk) 18:33, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to cut ext links that add nothing new: the most comprehensive on-line set of THH works is on Gutenberg and Clark U. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 06:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
I've just added a reference. I realise it's not formatted like the others on the page, but am not sure how to do this. Could someone else help? Thanks. Gareth Jones ( talk) 22:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Someone has helpfully put in the map of races from On the geographical distribution of the chief modifications of Mankind. This had been taken out of the article long ago on the grounds that it was THH's least distinguished work, and of close to zero interest today. Any opinions? Macdonald-ross ( talk) 13:41, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
This added tags {{ Split-apart}} and {{ Story}} with edit summary "Added tags to denote cleanup is necessary. Certain areas read like storytelling, the article is long, and overall not optimized for encyclopedic style."
My first serious reading of this article was two days ago during the On the Origin of Species sesquicentenary excitement, and I was very pleased to find yet another excellent article in the evolution series: congratulations to the authors.
I can see that some toning-down would be appropriate, and some points need yet more citations. I also agree that portions "read like storytelling" (aka "good writing"), and specific examples could be proposed to firm-up the encyclopedic style. However, I would strongly oppose any significant cutting of the article, and I do not see how it would be helped by splitting. I will return and make some specific suggestions, but meanwhile I invite anyone supporting the tags to provide further explanation because I propose to remove them after a couple of days because the issues are not of pressing importance.
Following are some examples of minor wording issues that probably should be addressed. In the lead, "Huxley used the term 'agnostic' to describe his own views on theology" needs a citation (I didn't see one in the article). Phrases that might be toned down include: "Remarkably, he became perhaps the finest comparative anatomist..." (citation?); "Despite this unenviable start..." (and a few more in "Early life"); "it seems extraordinary that"; "That, however, is another story"; "We can see that in his savage review...".
A consistent encyclopedic style is highly desirable, yet sentences like "To put it simply, Huxley preferred to teach what he had actually seen with his own eyes" present a problem because the current writing is clear, concise and very readable, so introducing alternative turgid prose for a more encyclopedic style is not appealing. Johnuniq ( talk) 04:03, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that at least once man is described seprately from apes when it is not up for debate that humans are a member of the ape clade. This needs clarification i.e. "man and the other apes" or something of the sort. Daruqe ( talk) 18:19, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
The following paragraph in the "man's place in nature" sub section got tagged with an improper synthesis template:
During those years there was also work on human fossil anatomy and anthropology. In 1862 he examined the Neanderthal skull-cap, which had been discovered in 1857. It was the first pre-sapiens discovery of a fossil man, and it was immediately clear to him that the brain case was surprisingly large.[67] Perhaps less productive was his work on physical anthropology, a topic which fascinated the Victorians. Huxley classified the human races as: Europeans, Mongolian, Negro (or Ethiopian) and Australian; each of these categories being broken down further into sub-sets. In fact all such anthropological classifications are put in the shade by our modern discovery that the genetic diversity of man in Africa is greater than exists in the rest of the human race.
The end of the paragraph cites 3 impeccable looking sources. What gives with the tag? I can't see any synthesis at all here. Surely it is not the list of Huxley's anthropological classifications? Nor can I see it being the last sentece, which merely reports the often stated fact (I could probably produce a dozen sources independant of the ones cited going back to the 80s) that from a genetic point of view race is a meaningless concept in humans? Improper synthesis involves synthesizing facts and conclusions from multiple published sources to reach a conclusion not stated by any published source. I can't for the life of mey see anything in the paragraph above that could be considered to be the product of synthesis let alone improper synthesis. A citation needed tag usually requires no explanation, but an improper synthesis tag has to be explained. If editors don't know what conclusion you think might be synthesized, there is no way to address the complaint. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 19:30, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
The lead as that "Huxley had little formal schooling and taught himself almost everything he knew". What are the sources of this claim? This BBC biography states that after moving to Covetry with his family, he joined his uncle, who was a surgeon, as his apprentice, and later moved to London where he continued his medical studies until the age of 21 when he signed as assistant surgeon on Royal Navy HMS Rattlesnake. Although, no doubt, he was a self-learner and autodidact, we can not say that he lacked a formal education, furthermore, being a son of a math teacher.-- Wcris ( talk) 01:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
The article claims that
without giving any source. This 1870 paper by Huxley has nine types
These include a Mongoloid (not "Mongolian") type, an "Austaloid" (not "Australian") type and a "Negro" type, but certainly not an "European" one, Huxley explicitly denounces the combination of his "Melanochroi" and "Xanthochroi" (both found in Europe) as "absurd". Not included in these five types are the Bushmen, Polynesians, Negritos and Esquimaux. -- dab (𒁳) 17:49, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
There is a persistent dispute between Mikey_143, Macdonald-ross, and Johnuniq, over minor variations in wording. The dispute is whether the word 'view' should be used, or whether the words 'theory' and 'belief' should be used, as in the phrases "theological beliefs", "a theory widely accepted today", "such a radical belief", "views on theology", "a view widely accepted today", "such an extreme view". Mikey 143 ( talk) 23:14, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
The second paragraph about the Huxley-Wilberforce debate completely overplays its importance, basically propounding a view that emerged in the 1890s and was in no way reflected in contemporary accounts. I have an exam on all this in a few days so I don't have time to look up all the references and change it now, but thought I'd point it out as it's a fairly glaring error to anyone within history of science. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.243.37 ( talk) 10:22, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
At a quick glance almost all of those references are from 1991 or before. Historians of science still thought the Scientific Revolution was a credible and useful concept in 1991. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.243.34 ( talk) 10:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Huxley was explicitly against working people and in favor of capitalists. He was pretty outspoken about it. I think since this shows him to have been morally bankrupt, and to have thought 90%+ of the world were ultimately unfit to be anything more than slaves to rich white Europeans like himself, it's rather relevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.227.77.90 ( talk) 13:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Hello; My Uncle Charles Tanzer who was a biologist had a photograph with autograph framed and when he died 20 years ago I took it. Not knowing who it was but sure he was someone important to my Uncle I could not bring myself to throw it away. The phot looks exacly like Thomas Henry Huxley but the first name which I cannot make out clearly looks like Normus or Numus. Would you know who this photograph might be? Joanne Ibe Cunningham 8/20/2011 [email protected] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.166.207 ( talk) 13:59, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
This is an important relationship. Aldous Huxley's wiki page shows the geneology of their relationship. Why no mention in T. H. Huxley's page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.92.14.172 ( talk) 23:53, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
The following statement looks rather misleading: " Huxley was joined at the debate by his and Darwin's friends Hooker and Lubbock, and they were opposed by the Lord Bishop of Oxford, Samuel Wilberforce, and Robert FitzRoy, the captain of HMS Beagle." From my understanding, FitzRoy spoke briefly from the floor rather than being called to the platform, and of course Huxley joined the debate over Draper's paper and was called to the platform responded after Wilberforce had already spoken. Have tried rephrasing the para, but don't have access to the cited source. .
dave souza,
talk
21:06, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
The lede is very long, as well as contains some editorial language. I'm going to go through it and make some edits, as well as to the rest of the page if anything comes up. I will most likely post the edits under this section of the talk page -- let me know if you have any questions or clarifications. GoGatorMeds ( talk) 15:28, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
The language in this article, as well as the lack of citations on many claims that are said as fact, has led me to think there needs to be an original research flag on this page in addition to an NPOV flag. I will continue to work on edits on this page to remove these flags within the week. Thanks you. GoGatorMeds ( talk) 19:39, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Not used or explained in article. 86.159.197.174 ( talk) 17:43, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Where is mention of eugenics from an authority on ethics? What of reference to Julian's co-founding of transhumanism with a Rockefeller? People speak of neutrality,how about the sin of omission. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.160.29.74 ( talk) 06:33, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I heard that Huxley was a Freemason. Is this true? Is there a source for it? cagliost ( talk) 16:01, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
I have added his quote from 2nd Romanes Lecture, the full text of the paragraph is 'It is the secret of the superiority of the best theological teachers to the majority of their opponents that they substantially recognise these realities of things, however strange the forms in which they clothe their conceptions. The doctrines of predestination, of original sin, of the innate depravity of man and the evil fate of the greater part of the race, of the primacy of Satan in this world, of the essential vileness of matter, of a malevolent Demiurgus subordinate to a benevolent Almighty, who has only lately revealed himself, faulty as they are, appear to me to be vastly nearer the truth than the “liberal” popular illusions that babies are all born good, and that the example of a corrupt society is responsible for their failure to remain so; that it is given to everybody to reach the ethical ideal if he will only try; that all partial evil is universal good, and other optimistic figments, such as that which represents “Providence” under the guise of a paternal philanthropist, and bids us believe that everything will come right (according to our notions) at last.'. There is some irony in his first sentence, but his expression of disappointment in liberal theology in the latter paragraph is also clear. Cpsoper ( talk) 09:11, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
It turns out that Huxley was NOT widely known as or EVER referred to as ‘Darwin’s bulldog’ during his lifetime. Linnean Society
I think it could be good to clarify that this nickname has been and is used a lot but was never actually used in his time. I suggest that in the article we change the second sentence to something like: "He is often been refered to as "Darwin's Bulldog" for his advocacy of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution but there are no proofs that this nickname was in fact never used while he was alive."
I think it would be good to mention this and potentially help people to not repeat something that turns out to be wrong. As John van Wyhe explains in his article "every writer on Darwin and Huxley has noted the commonplace ‘fact’ that during the Victorian debates over Darwinism, Huxley was known as ‘Darwin’s bulldog’. He wasn’t." — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChrCc ( talk • contribs) 06:18, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
Huxley said "I am Darwin's bulldog".There is also an explanation of "Bulldog" as slang for a university policeman. I don't see a source. Perhaps what should happen is that the "He is known as..." second sentence of the lead (which is not mentioned in the article) should be omitted, and a source found for the "Darwin's bulldog" section. Johnuniq ( talk) 10:06, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
I returned to this question after a long vacation from Darwiniana. Checking through the indexes of the various biographies, I found this:
I've no longer got a copy of Leonard Huxley's biography of THH, but I'm sure one of you can check it out. So I was unduly sceptical about the phrase. It was not only used, but invented by himself, and hence quite OK for biographical use here. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 21:50, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Oh, I can add a note on bulldogs (!). The term only refers to Oxford University, where the Proctor's men monitored the doings of undergraduates who wandered off from their college to sample the pleasures of the town. The bulldogs were university police, basically tough guys who wore bowler hats. They went into town and dragged students out of bars and brothels and brought them back to college. During the daytime their job was to make sure all "young gentlemen" wore their gowns even when they were not on the college grounds. Well, especially when they were not in college... Fines could be issued, and an uncomfortable interview with the Proctor ensued if young gentlemen went too far... The proctor was an academic, and hence it can be truly said that colleges policed their own students. The system was still going in my father's time at Balliol in the early 1930s, but has broken down now. It was a function of the huge social gulf which once existed between the gown and the town. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 22:08, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
The referencing of this article is a disgrace. There are many harv no target errors, citations with multiple targets. I'll try to fix some but the responsibility should really be taken by whoever introduced the errors, not some poor sap like me who comes along later. DuncanHill ( talk) 15:34, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
I do not think that this section really fits in this article. It is more a news piece about an ongoing process at Imperial College than about Huxley. The views expressed are still under debate and students and staff at Imperial have yet to vote on the matter. 79.66.210.175 ( talk) 00:09, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
A new editor, Panax2, has added a paragraph beginning "A critical response ...". Several issues, I think, arise:
@ Macdonald-ross: Do you want to offer an opinion on the Thomas Henry Huxley#Racism section which was added 27 October 2021? Johnuniq ( talk) 04:21, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
For anyone interested, story of an early translation of Evolution and Ethics with biases to make evolutionism attractive to a Chinese audience: Yuhan, Qi (2021). "YAN FU'S UNFAITHFUL TRANSLATION OF THOMAS HUXLEY'S EVOLUTION AND ETHICS". LINGUACULTURE. 12 (2): 163. Errantius ( talk) 05:54, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
There is a list of family members under 'Later life' and also a separate fuller description with its own heading of 'Family'. I haven't checked them out for repetition, but if no objection will do and delete the list under 'Later life'.
This latter entry 'Later life' appears very long with some subheaded entries which could have their own entries ? Eg, Accolades FiSt71 ( talk) 06:30, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
The current paragraphs under 'racism debate' only cite one biased article which criticises a 'far-left' group from Imperial College London.
It is inappropriate to label this group as far-left. Their report was informed by non-partisan experts in the field and is available publicly - it should be cited (link below). Moreover, this section should be rewritten, with due weight given to arguments exploring the problematic racial context of Huxley's comments.
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/administration-and-support-services/equality/public/history-group/History-Group-Report-2021---Version-2.pdf SprungOnion ( talk) 21:44, 20 March 2023 (UTC)