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I'm seeing a lot of statements in this article like:
While certainly interesting, I'm not sure that's sufficient refutation of most of these points. The quotes seem to usually be used because they define terms in ways that cast doubts on tax legality, not because those cases explicitly said that the taxes involved were illegal. IANAL, so maybe there's some legal principle that means that such definitions only apply to the area of law considered in the case (and if that's true, you may want to explicitly mention it), but to a layman it seems a little strange. — Brent Dax 06:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Brent Dax: From a legal standpoint, one of the most devastating things you can do to a tax protester is to say, about a particular case cited by a tax protester, that the case was not even a tax case. Under the U.S. legal system, we follow the rule of Stare decisis. See also Precedent and Ratio decidendi, and compare Obiter dictum. It is nonsensical, from a legal standpoint, for a tax protester to cite a particular court decision for a particular argument when that court decision did not even involve the subject matter at hand. To correctly point out that a particular case cited by the protester does not even mention the word "tax" is, from a legal standpoint, a complete refutation of the protester argument. Tax protester arguments suffer from a whole lot of other problems, but this is definitely one of the basic ones.
Another very devastating thing you can do to a tax protester is point out that, where the protester cites a particular case for a particular proposition, the case in question actually is a tax case and the ruling contradicts the protester's argument (you apparently saw some examples in the article).
The quotes in the cases do not "cast doubts on tax legality" from a legal standpoint -- and in law the legal standpoint is the only "standpoint" that counts. Taxation is a legal subject, and can be properly analyzed only by using principles of legal analysis.
We already have links to some of the relevant Wikipedia articles on proper legal analysis (see the discussion of the Stanton case). I'll take a look at the article and see if we can improve it. Yours, Famspear 20:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, now I see where editor Robert A West has beat me to the punch in the article (see the section on Stanton). Yours, Famspear 20:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I would also like to make two other points. First, although the information presented certainly does refute tax protester arguments, my view is that refutation or persuasion is not the purpose of this Wikipedia article. Questions about the legal validity of tax protester arguments cannot be decided in Wikipedia anyway. Legal questions are decided ultimately -- and only -- in court. Instead, the Wikipedia reader is (hopefully) provided with verifiable information on tax protester arguments both pro and con, and (hopefully) that information is presented with a neutral point of view -- and the reader is left to make his or her own conclusion, if desired. The reason the material in the article refutes tax protester arguments is that tax protester arguments are legally invalid; a learned person who elucubrates the matter properly is drawn inevitably to this conclusion. Second: The points about certain cases not even mentioning the word "tax" are simply icing on the cake. As mentioned above, lots of cases cited by protesters actually are tax cases -- it's just that the constitutional, statutory, and regulatory texts never really are what the protesters would like them to be, and the courts never rule on those texts the way the protesters would want them to rule. Yours, Famspear 02:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Brent Dax: Here is a quote from the begining of the article on Perl:
Good grief. What in the world is a "brace-delimited block style"? What is "string processing"? What is a "scripting language"? And how are the other mentioned languages (such as "AWK" and "C") used? Why is Perl described as a "dynamic" language? Is there a language that's not dynamic? What does dynamic mean in this particular context? I use computers every day and I have no idea what these terms really mean. After reading the introduction, I (as a layman) still have little if any concept of what "Perl" is (beyond the fact that it's a programming language). My eyes glaze over, and I figure it's useless to even finish reading the article, if there's this much undefined computer-related jargon just in the first few lines.
I'll bet there are technical definitions somewhere for all those terms. (In fairness I should point out that some of the technical terms are linked to related Wikipedia articles.) As Wikipedia is used by the general public, the Perl article probably should define these technical terms (if the definitions are found further down in the article, I don't even know, as "mine eyes" are still in too much of a deep state of "glaze" and I stopped reading). So, your point about explictly mentioning a bit of the underlying legal principles in the article on Tax protester constitutional arguments is well taken. Just as computer tekkies may occasionally forget that non-computer people aren't familiar with lots of computer terms, lawyers can forget or lose sight of the fact that non-lawyers cannot know the underlying legal principles. Thanks, Famspear 16:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I believe this article should have more secondary sources. Right now, it is nearly all primary. -- Benn Newman 00:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear editor Benn Newman: Regarding your point about secondary sources, the article is the result of many months of attacks on Wikipedia by tax protesters who have been inserting original research, non-neutral POV, unverified statements in tax-related articles. A decision apparently was made to concentrate the tax protester arguments, which are by definition legally frivolous and held by a small minority of people, into an article on tax protesters. That article gradually became too large and unwieldy, and was broken up earlier this year in to what is now: Tax protester; Tax protester arguments; Tax protester history; Tax protester constitutional arguments; Tax protester statutory arguments; and Tax protester conspiracy arguments.
I note the following Wikipedia rule regarding original research (with some bolding added by me):
Thus, I would argue that the Wikipedia rules on original research expressly recognize the example of Primary authority (which, I argue, is roughly analogous to Wikipedia's "primary source" concept) -- in the example given, an article on a court decision (Braunfeld v. Brown')-- as a way of providing the main support for an article on legal matters. Of course, we are always looking for additional Secondary authority materials -- sources roughly analogous to the Wikipedia concept of "secondary sources."
Much of the tax protester material that has appeared in Wikipedia has been copied and pasted from personal web sites, blogs, and so on -- hardly qualifying as proper sourcing for purposes of Wikipedia. Much of these materials cite actual court cases (primary authority). The problem is that the tax protesters nearly always misrepresent what the courts actually rule in the cited cases and, in some instances, actually include false "quotations" from the material. It would be virtually impossible to find secondary authority or secondary sources to illuminate the truth about every false entry or quotation. A better source, in this particlar kind of situation, is the actual Primary authority that is being falsely cited by the tax protesters. Yours, Famspear 18:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I see what you are saying. But that doesn't mean that they (the tax protesters) weren't right, right? *grin* More seriously: Taking what the court says and saying it is the "truth" (which it may be) is still not a neutral point of view. See also Wikipedia:Describing points of view. I think we can represent what the tax protesters' points of view(s) is(/are) and the courts' views are. -- Benn Newman 21:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
On 16 November 2006, a new user called Bobbyppp deleted essentially the entire article and replaced it with material apparently copied almost verbatim from a page at the "We the People" tax protester web site at http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/Update04-May-10.htm. Obviously, this violates copyright and numerous Wikipedia policies including Verifiability, Neutral Point of View, and No Original Research. Also, tax protester web sites are not suitable authoritative sources for "what the law is."
The material was also blatantly false, with phony descriptions of what the Supreme Court ruled in cases like Brushaber. For example, the following statement was included in the text dump: "However, in 1916, the Supreme Court brought the devilish action of Congress and the Executive branch to a screeching halt. The Supreme Court ruled in Brushaber (and the cases bundled with it), that wages are NOT income within the meaning of the 16th Amendment."
That statement is totally false.
The Court in Brushaber ruled that the Sixteenth Amendment removes the requirement that income taxes (whether considered to be direct taxes or indirect taxes) be apportioned among the states according to population. The Court also ruled that the Revenue Act of 1913, imposing unapportioned income taxes, is not unconstitutional. The Court further ruled that the Federal income tax statute does not violate the Fifth Amendment's prohibition against the government taking property without due process of law. The Court also ruled that the Federal income tax statute does not violate the uniformity clause of Article I, section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. Neither in Brushaber nor in any other Federal court case has any Federal court ever ruled that "wages are NOT income within the meaning of the 16th Amendment."
Not only that, but the issue of whether wages are income was not even decided by the Court in Brushaber. That issue was not even presented to the Court in Brushaber. The terms "wage," "wages," "salary," and "salaries" do not even appear in the text of Brushaber. The material was twice reverted by Wikipedia editors. Yours, Famspear 12:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I've deleted a set of bullet points from the section Arguments that the Sixteenth Amendment was never ratified (see my deletion here). Much of the text is a verbatim copy of arguments from the page http://www.givemeliberty.org/features/taxes/usatoday.htm and so is a copyright violation. It might be a good idea to include some of these claims in the article, but we need to describe them in our own words. — Mateo SA ( talk | contribs) 19:38, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Geez, even this page is getting too long - any thoughts on a logical split? bd2412 T 05:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmmmm. This is just a preliminary idea, but maybe sections 11 and 12 (on the "labor" and "corporate profits" arguments) are similar enough to each other (and different enough from the rest of the "constitutional" material) that they could go in a separate article. I don't know. I gotta get to sleep, though. Maybe I can come up with an idea in my sleep. Catch you later! Yours, Famspear 06:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Because the August 2006 decision of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit in the Murphy case was vacated (rendered void) by the same court on 22 December 2006, I have removed the quotations from the opinion that had been used to support the now-voided judgment. Yours, Famspear 14:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The following text has been moved from the article to here, for discussion:
Additionally,“The Sixteenth Amendment must be construed in connection with the taxing clauses of the original Constitution and the effect attributed to them before the amendment was adopted.”— Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189, 205 (1920)
Who took the power of Congress to tax “income” out of the indirect class? The Supreme Court, by its Pollock decision! The Sixteenth Amendment simply put it back. Stanton, supra, clearly shows that Article 1 has always restricted the definition of "income" to be only that on which an indirect tax can be laid and collected. Congress cannot define a direct tax as being an indirect tax just to enable it to pass constitutional muster. The class of a tax (direct or indirect) is not determined by now it is imposed but rather by its effect on the one who remits it to the government. If its burden can be shifted (as in a tax on manufacturing or on sales) the tax is indirect. If its burden cannot be shifted (as in a tax on property, including money), then that same tax is direct.“[B]y the previous ruling [Brushaber] it was settled that the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged[.]”— Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., 240 U.S. 103, 112 (1916)
Stay tuned. Yours, Famspear 18:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's look at these arguments one by one. First of all, the statement that "The Constitution Prohibits the Collection of a Direct Tax" is both incorrect and, on its face, absurd. The Constitution specifically states: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises . . . . " Art. I, sec. 8, cl. 1. The only limitation on "Taxes" (i.e., direct taxes) was: "No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration . . . ." Art. I, sec. 9, cl. 4. As stated over and over again in the case law, all income taxes had been considered excises (not direct taxes) until the time of Pollock in 1895. In Pollock the Court ruled that a tax on income from one particular source -- namely property -- should, however, be treated as a tax on the property itself (a direct tax), and was therefore required to be apportioned. The Sixteenth Amendment, however, overruled Pollock by specifically stating that Congress has the power to tax incomes from whatever source without apportionment. The courts have always recognized that Congress had the power to tax incomes long before the Sixteenth Amendment -- indeed, that's why you see the language to the effect that the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation.
The statement "Article 1 has always restricted the definition of 'income' to be only that on which an indirect tax can be laid and collected" is from a legal standpoint nonsensical. Article 1 (Article I of the Constitution) does not define income and Article I places no restrictions on the definition of income. Indeed, the term "income" is not found in the taxing provisions of Article I.
The statement that "Congress cannot define a direct tax as being an indirect tax just to enable it to pass constitutional muster" is probably correct -- but misses the point. The Sixteenth Amendment means exactly what it says. The Amendment is not limited to income taxes that happen to be direct taxes or income taxes that happen to be indirect taxes. If it's a "tax on incomes," then it's covered by the language of the Sixteenth Amendment, and that means that Congress not only can impose that tax, but can impose that tax regardless of the source of the income without having to apportion the tax among the states according to population.
The statement that the "class of a tax (direct or indirect) is not determined by now [sic; should be "how"] it is imposed but rather by its effect on the one who remits it to the government" misses the point. The point is that the constitutional validity of an income tax has nothing to do with how it is imposed -- and the validity also has nothing to do with its effect on who remits it to the government. Nothing in the language of Article I or in the Sixteenth Amendment places these kinds of restrictions on the Congressional power to tax incomes.
The law does not care whether the burden of the income tax "can be shifted (as in a tax on manufacturing or on sales)." The law also does not care whether the income tax is considered direct or indirect. In other words, the source of the income (which was the key consideration in Pollock in deciding whether the income tax was direct or indirect) is legally irrelevant after the Sixteenth Amendment with respect to the apportionment rule. If it's an income tax, the apportionment restriction simply does not apply.
The statement: "Since the main purpose of the Internal Revenue Code is to collect taxes within the States, any such tax imposed by the IRC, including the income tax, must be indirect to avoid conflict with Article 1" is another nonsensical statement, from a legal standpoint. With respect to the apportionment rule, the law does not care whether a particular income tax "conflicts" with Article I. The Sixteenth Amendment means what it says.
The only remaining constitutional restriction on income taxes found in the text of the constitution itself would be the unformity requirement for indirect taxes (excises). Excises must be imposed with what the courts have ruled is geographical uniformity. That basically means that the Congress could not impose an income tax, for example, just on incomes of people living in New York and Montana.
There are other possible restrictions, but they relate more to what the definition of "income" should be for purposes of the Constitution. Also, there's a requirement that taxing measures (not just income tax measures) originate in the House of Representatives, and so on.
The text I have been discussing is objectionable because it is unverifiable and is original research (incorrect research at that). There is simply no Federal court decision where any court has ruled the arguments in the text to be legally valid. Citations to tax protester web sites are not reliable for purposes of Wikipedia. Yours, Famspear 20:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Tax protester constitutional arguments → Tax protester constitutional arguments in the United States This article deals almost exclusively about this phenomenon in the United States. Please discuss at Talk:Tax protester#Requested move. — AjaxSmack 06:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The Brushaber case was about the right of Congress to tax the income of Corporations.
Union Pacific Railroad was a Corporation ("person") that owned property. That property was used to produce "income" which was taxable. The 16th Amendment was brough about to address the fact the the U.S. Supreme Court in the Pollock case had classified a tax that was long thought to be indirect, as direct. It's main directive was to prevent other Courts from doing what the Court in the Pollock case did: reclassifying an income tax as direct, when it is actually indirect.
The 16th Amendment did NOT do away with the requirements for apportionment for a direct tax, thereby creating a new power to directly tax incomes without apportionment, as so many people falsely believe. In the Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co. case, the U.S. Supreme Court held that "But, aside from the obvious error of the proposition, intrinsically considered, it manifestly disregards the fact that by the previous ruling [Brushaber] it was settled that the provisions of the 16th Amendment CONFERRED NO NEW POWER OF TAXATION, but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged, and being placed in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived,-that is, by testing the tax not by what it was, a tax on income, but by a MISTAKEN THEORY deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed." [emphasis mine]
The 16th Amendment DID NOT give the Congress the power to directly tax income without Apportionment. This is evidenced by the fact that 1:2:3 and 1:9:4 of the U.S. Constitution are still intact, and have never been overturned by Amendment to the Constitution (c.f. "Prohibition" Amendment XVIII, and "Repeal of Prohibition" Amendment XXI of said Constitution). In order for the income of sovereign men and women to be taxed, there must be apportionment. IRS readily admits that incomes of individual people are not taxed according to apportionment requirements. Congress has NEVER had the power to levy a direct tax in disregard to the rule of apportionment, and they never will.
The Pollock ruling damaged Congress' ability to filch money from the people. In light of that fact, Congress created the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909. That Act taxed, via an excise -or "privilege"- tax, doing business as a corporation. The value of the privilege of doing business as a corporation was determined by the amount of income the corporation produced, minus deductions. By passing the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909, Congress now has effectively sidestepped the Pollock ruling, and once again is filching money from the people by deceiving them into believing they are required to file a 1040 income tax return form (which form, consequently, bears an OMB number which makes it the WRONG form for an individual man or woman to report income on). —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
162.84.117.14 (
talk •
contribs) 12:58 17 January 2007 (UTC).
To whomever it may matter:
Respectfully i ask that you read verbatim from the Brushaber case and you will find quite contrary to what you have just said that it if fact states that the 16th DID NOT give congress any new powers.
many lower courts seem to misunderstand it as well.
It is perhaps the biggest mistake made in most IRS prosecutions. lawyers cite the case and claim it gives powers when CLEARLY they put it to the test and it is VOIDED (Not constitutional) each time.
read it carefully please
Guys i am not sure what was reverted here, but this line of reasoning is fatally flawed.
someone is reading this from another source.
The brushaber case CLEARLY shows that the 16th made NO taxation changes for the average person.
From this in substance it indisputably arises, first, that all the contentions which we have previously noticed concerning the assumed limitations to be implied from the language of the Amendment as to the nature and character of the income taxes which it authorizes find no support in the text and are in irreconcilable conflict with the very purpose which the Amendment was adopted to accomplish ( that is to say making ALL income taxable). Second, that the contention that the Amendment treats a tax on income as a direct tax although it is relieved from apportionment and is necessarily therefore not subject to the rule of uniformity as such rule only applies to taxes which are not direct, thus destroying the two great classifications which have been recognized and enforced from the beginning, is also wholly without foundation since the command of the Amendment that all income taxes shall not be subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the taxed income may be derived
240 US 1
We are of opinion, however, [240 U.S. 1, 11] that the confusion is not inherent, but rather arises from the conclusion that the 16th Amendment provides for a hitherto unknown power of taxation; that is, a power to levy an income tax which, although direct, should not be subject to the regulation of apportionment applicable to all other direct taxes. And the far-reaching effect of this erroneous assumption will be made clear by generalizing the many contentions advanced in argument to support it, as follows:
1.The Amendment authorizes only a particular character of direct tax without apportionment, and therefore if a tax is levied under its assumed authority which does not partake of the characteristics exacted by the Amendment, it is outside of the Amendment, and is void as a direct tax in the general constitutional sense because not apportioned.
2.As the Amendment authorizes a tax only upon incomes 'from whatever source derived,' the exclusion from taxation of some income of designated persons and classes is not authorized, and hence the
'''constitutionality of the law must be tested by the general provisions of the Constitution as to taxation''', and thus again the tax is void for want of apportionment.
3.As the right to tax 'incomes from whatever source derived' for which the Amendment provides must be considered as exacting intrinsic uniformity, therefore no tax comes under the authority of the Amendment not conforming to such standard, and hence all the provisions of the assailed statute must once more be tested solely under the general and pre-existing provisions of the Constitution, causing the statute again to be void in the absence of apportionment.
But it clearly results that the proposition and the contentions [240 U.S. 1, 12] under it, if acceded to, would cause one provision of the Constitution to destroy another; that is, they would result in bringing the provisions of the Amendment exempting a direct tax from apportionment into irreconcilable conflict with the general requirement that all direct taxes be apportioned. Moreover, the tax authorized by the Amendment, being direct, would not come under the rule of uniformity applicable under the Constitution to other than direct taxes, and thus it would come to pass that the result of the Amendment would be to authorize a particular direct tax not subject either to apportionment or to the rule of geographical uniformity, thus giving power to impose a different tax in one state or states than was levied in another state or states.
So exactly how does anyone claim that this case upholds the 16th's power to lay direct tax on the average income or that it gave any NEW powers of taxation to the government ?
has anyone even read the cited cases?
It pronounced, “Realizing
and receiving income or earnings is not a privilege that can be taxed.” 206 Tenn. at 698. In justifying this
conclusion, the Court stated that “[s]ince the right to receive income or earnings is a right belonging to every
person, this right cannot be taxed as privilege.” 206 Tenn. at 699
Jack Cole Company v. MacFarland, 206 Tenn. 694, 337 S.W.2d 453 (1960)
There are many lawyers who are misquoting this. but if you look at it closely you will find that it Clearly and Plainly says the 16th amendment made no change to congress's ability to tax us.
I am quite open to anything proving otherwise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.136.69 ( talk • contribs) on 13 August 2007
Dear user at IP 60.245.137.69. I notice that you are posting similar comments in many different talk pages. No lawyers are misquoting the case. This has been covered over and over and over again in Wikipedia. You have not added anything new. By the way, the Jack Cole Company case isn't even a Federal income tax case. It's not a Federal court case at all, and includes no ruling on the validity of Federal income taxes or the Sixteenth Amendment.
You may want to read the cited cases yourself. The material you inserted appears to have been based on tax protester arguments found on the internet. This kind of material has been posted in Wikipedia over and over. Nothing new.
The Court in Brushaber UPHELD the validity of the Federal income tax. And NO FEDERAL COURT HAS EVER HELD that the income of an individual cannot be taxed. There was an old case where the Supreme Court made a ruling on certain income taxes of Federal judges, but that had nothing to do with the validity of Federal income taxation in general -- and that case was later overruled by the Supreme Court itself, anyway.
Now, let's look at your verbiage here:
many lower courts seem to misunderstand it as well.
With all due respect, this is completely wrong. The exact text of the Brushaber case is available for anyone to read on line. Mr. Frank Brushaber was arguing that the Federal income tax on CORPORATE income was unconstitutional. HE LOST THE CASE. The Court UPHELD the corporate income tax. Also, the INDIVIDUAL income tax wasn't even at issue in the case. And NO FEDERAL court -- either before or after the Sixteenth Amendment -- has ever ruled that Congress cannot validly impose a Federal income tax on the income of U.S. citizens or residents. None. Not even one single case.
The most recent U.S. Supreme Court decision involving a tax protester who wanted to argue that the income of an individual was not taxable is the case of Cheek v. United States, in 1991. The Supreme Court generally doesn't even hear these kinds of cases any more - they are treated as so frivolous.
Under American law, we follow a rule called Stare decisis. That means that you cannot simply take quotations from court opinions and argue that they mean something other than what the court actually ruled. The Supreme Court UPHELD the income tax in Brushaber. Yours, Famspear 10:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Quote from above: The most recent U.S. Supreme Court decision involving a tax protester who wanted to argue that the income of an individual was not taxable is the case of Cheek v. United States, in 1991. The Supreme Court generally doesn't even hear these kinds of cases any more - they are treated as so frivolous.
70.209.122.45 19:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Quote from above: Under American law, we follow a rule called Stare decisis. That means that you cannot simply take quotations from court opinions and argue that they mean something other than what the court actually ruled. The Supreme Court UPHELD the income tax in Brushaber.
For those who haven't read the Brushaber v. Union Pacific R. Co. the courts opinion, it can be found here (this is not a tax protest site) :
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?friend=nytimes&court=us&vol=240&invol=1
What we are talking about here is not so much if congress can tax incomes we are talking about is how they can tax incomes. That is if the tax can be progressive or not. In the Brushnare case he says this :
"But the proposition disregards the fact that in the very early history of the government a progressive tax was imposed by Congress, and that such authority was exerted in some, if not all, of the various income taxes enacted prior to 1894 to which we have previously adverted. And over and above all this the contention but disregards the further fact that its absolute want of foundation in reason was plainly pointed out in Knowlton v. Moore, 178 U.S. 41 , 44 L. ed. 969, 20 Sup. Ct. Rep. 747, and the right to urge it was necessarily foreclosed by the ruling in that case made."
Those who say that the 16th amendment allows for the taxation of incomes is incorrect, and those who say that it means they can have progressive taxes is also incorrect (The 16th amendment is essential irrelevant to most taxation it is simply a correction to a mistake by a previous supreme court case). You will have to look at the knowlton v. moore case to understand why progressive tax is permitted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.151.201.82 ( talk) 19:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the following unsourced verbiage recently inserted in the article:
It is correct to say that the IRS, and not the court, "assesses" penalties, as the term "assessment" is used in the Code. Assessment of taxes, penalties and interest is an administrative function, not a judicial function. This has nothing really to do with the fact that a section 6702 violation is a civil penalty, etc. The verbiage seems to have very little to do with the discussion in the article. At any rate, where a taxpayer contests the assessment of a section 6702 penalty in court, the court decides whether or not the penalty will be upheld. The court does this by way of a judgment. That's a judicial function.
The verbiage regarding "nontaxpayer" and "taxpayer" is nonsensical, from a tax law standpoint. In short: Unsourced, tangential, partially incorrect verbiage. Yours, Famspear 16:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors: I should also point out that the appeals court in the Lovell case (see the article) specifically stated that the taxpayers "appeal from a district court order granting summary judgment and assessing a $500 frivolous return penalty under 26 U. S. C. A. §6702(a)." In other words, the appeals court was saying that the district court "assessed" the penalty. However, in this case the appeals court was using the term "assess" in a more general, colloquial non-technical sense, and not with the formal statutory meaning in which the IRS, as an administrative agency, "assesses" a tax or penalty by recording it on the books of the U.S. Treasury. Nevertheless, I went ahead and changed the verbiage in the article from "assess" to "uphold." Lots of legal terms, like lots of other terms, have more than one meaning. Yours, Famspear 16:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes you meet the standards: well-written, accurate and verifiable, broad and not losing focus (ie. not wandering outside the scope of the title), neutral (not advocating taxdodging, not pro-government), stable - good collaboration on talk (and may a thousand flowers bloom, may a hundred schools of thought contend), THERE ARE NO IMAGES but lack thereof is not fatal to attaining GA. FA-status requires that style standards must be upheld, that the writing is compelling or brilliant, that the coverage is comprehensive. Meditate upon it. My view is that your writing and coverage, especially the latter, do meet the FA-standard. Now I propose that I might steal an image from United States Supreme Court or the article on the 16th Amendment to place here. Paying taxes buys civilisation (my view) - schools, hospitals, rubbish removal, police, roads .. even courtrooms! Don't be late for April 15. BongHitz4Musa 02:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Love to find a pic of this taxdodger to put in the article .. someone who personifies tax protesting in the United States. I've added in a pic of Justice OWH from 1930 and a copy of the 16th Amendment as images. Interesting how the leading cases are not often from the level of the United States Supreme Court. BongHitz4Musa 02:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I know we were looking for more sources for these articles. Read this article recently by Alan Keyes - http://www.renewamerica.us/news/070412keyes.htm. Might be able to be used for sourcing purposes, though he doesn't state that it allows you to refuse to file an income tax return. He does discusses the argument as a civil liberty issue. Morphh (talk) 11:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm leaving this note on a relativlely small edit because those who authored it obviously spent a lot of time researching this material, and I wouldn't want them to think I'm being contrary or unapreciative. I believe that the line "However, supporters of such arguments may also be inclined to contend that statutory and conspiracy arguments apply as well." needed to be removed. It seems to be an "Informal Relevance fallacy". Anyone, regardless of their views on this or any other subject, in general, "may also be inclined" to believe anything. -- Electrostatic1 09:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Just as a follow-up for non-lawyers (i.e., for normal people) I should point out that in a court of law it is generally acceptable to argue "conflicting" theories within a case. For example if you are fighting against the government on some issue, you could go into court and argue that "statute X is unconstitutional because it violates provision Y of the Constitution." That's a contention about constitutionality of the statute.
Then, in a separate place in your pleading you could argue something like "Well, even if statute X does not violate provision Y, statute X should be construed to mean 'Z' -- even though the government says that the statute means 'not Z.'" That would be a statutory construction argument.
Then, you could make a third argument that "Well, if the government is right and statute X does mean 'not Z', the statute does not apply to me anyway, because of some rule in statute M" (another statutory construction argument, probably).
Unless one of those arguments happens to be legally frivolous, it would be permissible to make all three arguments in the same pleading. You are generally allowed to plead and argue as many alternative theories as you like. Yours, Famspear 16:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is clarly biased. All it does is attack the tax honest movement... hell the article on alien abductions sounds less one sided. One of the earliest claims is that no court has said that the 16th Amendment was illegally ratified. Bullshit. "If you went back and examined that carefully (the 16th Amendment), you would find that a sufficient number of states never ratified that amendment" ~ U.S. District Court Judge, James C. Fox, 2003 Most of the court cases cited do not include the fact that many of the judges says things that are clearly those infamous cases where judges bend the laws in order to keep with the status quo. Does this make them any less important, no. But as for a wikipedia article it is something that deserves to be mentioned. This article has just been used as means of attacking the Tax Honesty Movement. The repetitive use of the phrase "Some tax protesters argue that..." followed by why that claim is wrong because of what one judge says. I'm sorry but since when did a local country or district judge has the right to over-rule the Constitution of the United States. Thats like saying the guy in the cubicle deciding corporate policy. The author of this is clearly some IRS lapdog who believes that if we got rid of the income tax we wouldn't be able to fund government (and obviously we ha don't government until 1913 when the means to fund it were established). This article portrays the members of the Tax Honest Movement as stupid and uninformed people who just wanna get out of paying their taxes. TheHoustonKid 14:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Imho all issues relating to this by some one of the editors are extremely bias and non factual.
Not that i actually expect any honesty on this matter. there are at least 2 instances on the 16th amendment page that are grossly misleading.
"The Amendment, which overrules the effect of Pollock,[22] essentially means that when imposing an income tax, the Congress may impose the tax on income(notice how derived has been removed completely changing the substance as to support a fantasy interpretation of the law)from any source without having to apportion the total dollar amount of tax collected from each state according to each state's population in relation to the total national population."
" Income taxation of wages, etc. The courts have interpreted the Sixteenth Amendment as standing for the rule that the Amendment allows a direct tax on "wages, salaries, commissions, etc. without apportionment."[30]"
above is yet another exa,ple of the "opinion" of the supposed "tax lawyer experts" who refuse to allow the actual verbage to be posted thus obfuscating the truth to support thier desires.
Congress DID NOT intend a direct tax on wages etc. It is appaling to me that supposedly educated individuals dont understand plain english
The 16th clear states "incomes DERIVED FROM wages, etc. but it will never be corrected. I understand this. IT threatens the percieved reality of many "legal experts" who moderate here.
to say no court has ever held that wages,salaries ect are not income is of course patently false arent they.
Lucas v. Earl, 281 U.S. 111 (1930) "The claim that salaries, wages, and compensation for personal services are to be taxed as an entirety and therefore must be returned by the individual who has performed the services which produce the gain is without support, either in the language of the Act or in the decisions of the courts construing it... It is to be noted that, by the language of the Act, it is not salaries, wages, or compensation for personal services that are to be included in gains, profits, and income derived from salaries, wages, or compensation for personal services."
but i am certain this will be responded to with a string of immaterial and fatally flawwed lower court cases as usual. peace 98.226.125.104 ( talk) 16:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Dear editors: I have deleted the separate section on the Murphy case and incorporated a more more brief description of the Murphy case together with a quote from the seminal Penn Mutual case from many years ago. The Murphy material was a bit repetitive of the detail already shown in the separate Wikipedia article on Murphy. Together, Penn Mutual and Murphy are leading cases for the precept that although Congress cannot "make" something "be" income that is not really income, Congress may constitutionally call something income, and may tax it as income. Yours, Famspear 15:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
This is SUCH a biased article. And where is "income" defined in the Constitution, US Code or the IRS code? 70.209.122.45 20:01, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous editor has been adding the following verbiage:
This material has been removed by me and at least one other editor. Aside from being unsourced original research, the verbiage about the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment somehow negating the progessive structure of Federal income taxes is, unfortunately, completely false. However, when I get a chance I will check and see if there are any court cases on this. Perhaps it can be reworked and added back as another example of a tax protester argument. Yours, Famspear 13:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Section 1. Amendment XIV, last line: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html
Amendment XVI: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxvi.html
Amendment XIV clearly states that all citizens of this country shall have equal protection under the laws of this nation. Since the XVI amendment makes no mention of the people, and only the states, it does not negate the idea that the equal protection clause ensures that the law treats us all equally. No published work will contend this idea because it doesn't merit publication, it's clearly written in the Constitution. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mesthead115 ( talk • contribs) 16:43, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
I am not drawing any conclusions that cannot be seen by any literate person.
Fact: 14th ensures equal protection Fact: Income tax is progressive Fact: Income tax is not equally protective. Conclusion: Income tax violates the 14th Amendment as currently implemented.
This entire article relies on editorials and supreme court cases that draw conclusions from fact. How are my conclusions less valid than their's? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mesthead115 ( talk • contribs) 17:28, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
Dear Editors: Here is the verbiage:
Obviously, Wikipedia itself cannot take the blatant position that the equal protection clause "negates" the progressive income tax, etc., etc. This is Mesthead's conclusion, not a conclusion by a reliable, published, third party source. Famspear 17:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Famspear, as I have noted in the Judicial Review article, the Supreme Court does not have the authority to rule on matters of Constitutionality, so SC cases are irrelevant.
The Equal protection clause does apply to the federal income tax as states are subject to the supremacy clause, and as such required to enforce the laws of the federal government, which in this case do not yield equal protection.
Morph, your analogy is not in any way appropriate because while yes, once in an income brackett one is compelled to pay the same amount as one's brackett-mates, those belonging to different tax bracketts pay lower or higher percentages of income, not net amounts. If you make $10 and I make $100, and we both pay 10% to the government, at this point we are equally protected. However, when your tax return permits you to regain your tax money, where mine does not, that is where the government makes us unequal. Further, our current system applies different PERCENTAGES to different income bracketts, and thus makes them inherently unequal before any money is returned to the population. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mesthead115 ( talk • contribs) 19:34, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
Over at the talk page for Judicial review in the United States, user Mesthead115 rejects Marbury v. Madison as well: [2] Boy, I guess that settles it. Uh, OK, who wants to volunteer to notify the United States Supreme Court about Mesthead115's "ruling"? Famspear 22:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Oops, my mistake -- that posting was not by Mesthead115, it was by a user at IP24.243.37.23. My apologies to Mesthead115 and all other users. Yours, Famspear 22:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The Supreme Court has judicial authority over cases of law and equity arising under the Constitution; meaning they have the authority to rule on cases of law and equity that arise while the Constitution is empowerd. If judicial review were an expressed power, Marbury v. Madison wouldn't have been needed as a qualifier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.115.222.55 ( talk) 13:00, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.
Some statements are not supported by refferences. I marked them with {{fact}} tags.
I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GA/R). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAC. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regards, Ruslik 12:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, I have found a source for one tag, and added that. On a second tag, I have deleted the sentence. It can be added back if we can find a source for it. That leaves one tag, I think. Still working on it. Famspear 14:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The cases of United States v. Foster, 789 F.2d 457 (1986) and United States v. Thomas, 788 F.2d 1250 (7th Cir. 1986) cannot, in my opinion, withstand scrutiny.
In Foster the Seventh Circuit concluded that the validity of an amendment’s ratification is a non-justiciable political question because courts are bound by the enrolled bill rule. [1] The enrolled bill rule, at the time of the 16th Amendment ratification process, was found at Section 205 of the Revised Statutes, and stated:
Whenever official notice is received at the Department of State that any amendment proposed to the Constitution of the United States has been adopted, according to the provisions of the Constitution, the Secretary of State shall forthwith cause the amendment to be published n the newspapers authorized to promulgate the laws, with his certificate, specifying the States by which the same may have been adopted, and that the same has become valid, to all intents and purposes, as a part of the Constitution of the United States.
“[T]he provisions of the Constitution” referred to is Article V of the United States Constitution. It requires the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States to ratify a proposed constitutional amendment. The Foster Court ignored this requirement when it held: “official notice to the Secretary, duly authenticated, that they had done so [ratified the nineteenth amendment] was conclusive upon him, and, being certified to by his proclamation, is conclusive upon the courts.” [2]
This so called “conclusive presumption” is anathema to the entire constitutional system of checks and balances. According to the Seventh Circuit, and other courts, [31] only notice of ratification is required, not actual ratification as required by Article V. The proof of whether or not a state actually ratified a proposed amendment is contained in the state’s legislative journals. The purpose behind a legislative journal is to record exactly what transpired so the people can keep abreast of what our elected officials are doing, and perhaps more importantly, how they are doing it.
The Thomas Court supposedly “specifically examined the arguments made in The Law That Never Was” [3] and concluded that Benson did not discover anything but only rediscovered something that Secretary Knox considered in 1913. [4] The legislative journals obtained by Benson belie this assertion. Benson discovered, among other things, that the States of Oklahoma [5], Missouri [6] and Washington [7] intentionally changed the wording of the 16th Amendment proposed by Congress.
When then Secretary of State Knox received the certified copies of certificates of ratification from the various states and noted the certificates contained language different from that proposed by Congress, Knox asked the Office of the Solicitor of the Department of State for a legal opinion as to whether or not a sufficient number of states has ratified the proposed 16th Amendment. The Solicitor’s memorandum, dated February 15th, 1913, is contained in The Law That Never Was. [8]
From the Solicitor’s Memorandum of February 15, 1913:
In no case has any legislature signified in any way its deliberate intention to change the wording of the proposed amendment. The errors appear in most cases to have been merely typographical and incident to an attempt to make an accurate quotation.
Furthermore, under the provisions of the Constitution a legislature is not authorized to alter in any way the amendment proposed by Congress, the function of the legislature consisting merely in the right to approve or disapprove the proposed amendment. It, therefore, seems a necessary presumption, in the absence of an express stipulation to the contrary, that a legislature did not intend to do something that it had not the power to do, but rather that it intended to do something that it had the power to do, namely, where its action has been affirmative, to ratify the amendment proposed by Congress. Moreover, it could not be presumed that by a mere change of wording probably inadvertent, the legislature had intended to reject the amendment as proposed by Congress where all parts of the resolution either than those merely reciting the proposed amendment had set forth an affirmative action by the legislature. For these reasons it is believed that the Secretary of State should in the present instance include in his declaration announcing the adoption of the 16th amendment to the Constitution the States referred to notwithstanding it appears that errors exist in the certified copies of Resolutions passed by the Legislatures of those States ratifying such amendment. [9]
The Solicitor relied on a series of necessarily connected presumptions to reach his conclusion of ratification. Benson’s evidence raises two problems. First, the presumption that no state intended to alter the proposed amendment is patently false. Second, the ultimate conclusion drawn from the false presumption is also false. At least three of the notices of ratification does not contain only mere minor typographical errors incident to an attempt to make an accurate quotation.
Proof of these intentional changes by Oklahoma, Missouri and Washington are clearly contained in The Law That Never Was. Had the Thomas Court “specifically examined the arguments made in The Law That Never Was,” it would have known that the Knox relied upon false presumptions, and that several states did not, in fact, ratify the proposed 16th Amendment.
These issues are currently before a court in United States v. Benson, Case No. 1:04-cv-07403 (N.D.Ill.E.D. 2004). The details of the case, including copies of the pleadings on file, may be seen by visiting http://jeffdickstein.com.
Jdlaw47 17:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
[1] United States v. Foster, 789 F.2d 457, 462-63, n. 6 (1986).
[2] Id.
[3] United States v. Benson, 941 F.2d 598, 607 (7th Cir. 1991).
[4] United States v. Thomas, 788 F.2d 1250 (7th Cir. 1986).
[5] W. Benson & M. Beckman, The Law That Never Was (1985), pp. 63-65.
[6] Id., p. 191.
[7] Id., p. 114.
[8] Id., pp. 5-20.
[9] Id., pp. 19-20.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlaw47 ( talk • contribs) on 22 September 2007.
The following language from an anonymous editor has been moved from the article to here:
This appears to be some sort of original research argumentation. What the writer seems to be driving at is that there ought to be some unwritten rule of law that would require language "to indicate earlier portions were no longer valid" or something to that effect. If this is indeed a tax protester argument, maybe we can find some sourcing for it and reintroduce it, with appropriate edits.
In any case, there is no actual constitutional or other legal requirement that a Constitutional amendment -- or the joint resolution for a proposed amendment -- specify that they are "in lieu of" the respective portions of the Constitution they replaced, so this may very well be another nonsensical tax protester argument. We just don't want to be making up new tax protester arguments as we go along (there are enough of them out there already). Stay tuned. Famspear 19:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
PLEASE - allow someone to insert information/text on HOW the particular judges reached the various decisions. I do NOT see this represented here at all. In fact, what I do see is the overt hostility towards tax protesters, but do not see ANY real evaluation of the various judicial decisions. As we all know, judges are just ordinary human beings that can get it wrong - therefore any decision that allows this article to say that the court "rejected" any arguement should be detailed in FULL - this has not been done in this article. Please DISCUSS.~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.194.190.100 ( talk) 18:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Tax protester constitutional arguments/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Promoted to GA! Work toward A and FA :-) Morphh (talk) 12:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 12:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 15:55, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
The following unsourced commentary by IP 66.28.136.226 has been moved from the article to here:
It is certainly correct to say that constitutional restrictions on the federal taxing authority can (or do) exist. It would also be correct to say that those restrictions are pertinent in some but not all legal actions involving the tax code (and pertinence depends on the nature of the controversy, as the vast majority of legal actions involving the tax code do not involve any dispute about the constitutionality of any code provision). Those points are not, however, the key point of the quotation, in my view.
The key point of the quotation is that it's OK for Congress to call something income and tax it as income even if it's not really income -- for the simple reason that there is no constitutional restriction that prevents Congress from doing so. The court is essentially saying (or implying) that the restrictions in the Constitution (such as apportionment for direct taxes other than income taxes, geographic uniformity for indirect taxes, no tax on exports, revenue measures must originate in the House, and so on) are NOT restrictions on what the Congress may or may not tax as "income."
More to the point -- whether IP 66.28.136.226 is correct about what the "key point" is, or whether I am correct about what the key point is -- it is not for either of us as Wikipedia editors to decide for ourselves and write in the article itself what we believe the "key point" of the quotation is. The article could, however, show what reliable, previously published third party sources have said the key point is. In the absence of such previously published third party source statements, the quotation can pretty much stand on its own. Yours, Famspear ( talk) 21:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Aren't we using an awful lot of legal commentary by Daniel B. Evans, considering he doesn't seem notable enough to have his own article? (What actually made me curious was the use of one of his quotes in the first-paragraph, pre-TOC text on the Tax protester article.) — atchius ( msg) 04:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear user JS747: With all due respect, I think that you as a newcomer are laboring under some misunderstanding about how Wikipedia works. Here's why.
Daniel Evans is a source. Under the rules of Wikipedia (including Neutral Point of View), as shocking as this may sound, sources are allowed to be biased. Sources are not required to be neutral. Wikipedia articles do indeed properly contain biased and non-neutral opinions of such sources. Please read the rules on Neutral Point of View.
Evans is a leading authority on tax protester arguments. The fact that he has a law degree, is an attorney, and has done lots of research and has been cited by others (including the New York Times) is indeed both legally and logically relevant to the use of his work as a reliable source on a legal topic.
From the rule on Neutral Point of View:
See: [6] (bolding added).
If, for example, a liberal think tank supports a particular position about whether the Alternative Minimum Tax is good or bad, it is OK to document that in Wikipedia with an adequate description that it is the liberal think tank that is taking that position. You cannot delete "points of view" in Wikipedia merely because they are liberal, conservative, leftist, rightist, etc. Neutral point of view does not mean the absence of bias in the SOURCE MATERIAL. In essence, it is OK for the source material to be biased, and it is OK for the source itself to be biased, as odd as that may sound to a newcomer. Neutral point of view means that Wikipedia itself does not take a position that this source's viewpoint is correct, or that some other source's viewpoint is incorrect. Yours, Famspear ( talk) 16:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, I completely disagree with the contention that Daniel Evans as a source is "heavily relied upon" in this article. As best I can tell, there are only two quotations from Evans in the article.
By contrast, a quick rough reading shows this article contains about 87 footnotes -- including citations to at least 43 actual court decisions, often with direct quotations from the texts. The number of citations to reliable, previously published third party sources is overwhelming.
Indeed, a large portion of the sourcing for this article -- especially the court cases -- came from the tax protesters who have posted it right here in Wikipedia! These are many of the very same court cases that tax protesters love to cite on scam websites (and of course the tax protesters cite these cases with fake quotations, or quotations taken out of context, or blatantly fake statements that a court ruled one way when the court ruled the opposite, and so on). Some of the fake quotations ended up here in Wikipedia, and are exposed in this very article. Famspear ( talk) 17:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear JS747: Well, the purpose of this talk page is to discuss ways to improve the article. Therefore, when you wrote (with bolding added by me):
I assumed that you were talking about the Wikipedia article and the supposed "reliance" you feel is placed the article itself, on Evans as a source. I think a reasonable inference from your statement would be that you were indeed making the assertion (1) that you feel Evans is "heavily relied upon" in the article itself -- currently, right now, and (2) that you feel this reliance is "bad" because Evans is biased. That's my reading of what you said.
The statement that Evans is a leading authority is indeed my opinion. He is just one source in the article. Do you want me to list his credentials here?
Regarding your statement:
Again, these were your exact words:
(bolding added).
So, in what way do you think I misinterpreted what you wrote? Famspear ( talk) 18:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear JS747: Thanks for the clarification. On your comment: "The question to ask now is: Does stating your opinion in the article push it towards your pov? I don't see how it can't" -- the answer is that inserting Daniel Evans opinion into the text of the article is indeed an insertion of Daniel Evans' POV (point of view). Again, that's perfectly fine under the rules on Neutral Point of View (per the quotation from the rule, above.)
Now, let's look at your comment here:
I think that what you might be feeling that the article overall is biased. What you may be thinking is overall bias is actually the weight of the authority. Remember, tax protester theories are legal nonsense. Not one has ever been upheld in one single Federal court case. In a Wikipedia article on tax protesters that conforms to the rules on Verifiability, Neutral POV, and No Original Research, the average reader is still going to come away with the sense that tax protesters are a bunch of misguided souls -- or worse. The reason for that is not that the article is biased. The article is presented with a Neutral Point of View -- but contains "biased" or "non-neutral" statements from sources -- which is perfectly OK. The reason for that is that the "evidence" (to use term in a non-legal sense) is overwhelming. There is literally no legal basis for tax protester arguments whatsoever. Indeed such arguments have been ruled not only to be without legal merit, but worse: they have been ruled to be legally frivolous. The mere fact that you get the impression from the article that one side is right and the other side is essentially nutty does not necessarily mean that the article itself lacks neutral point of view.
I don't know what you're referring to when you say that sources "in favor of protesters" are routinely removed. You may want to consider providing some examples, and then we can show (to the extent not already explained on the talk page or the edit summaries) why a particular source was removed. Famspear ( talk) 18:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear BD2412: Yeah, and since you're working on this, I am happy to hang back. The real world is closing in on me right now. I located one or two law review articles on tax protesters a while back, but it's just gonna have to wait. Yours, Famspear ( talk) 23:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Just a reminder that I have proposed to call for a conclusion to this discussion on tax protester rhetoric on February 6. If anyone has anything more to add to the discussion, speak now! bd2412 T 16:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
We need to work on the lead. According to WP:LEAD, we should have a three to four paragraph lead (probably four due to the article size). Perhaps someone that is more familar with the article can expand this. The lead should summarize the entire article, so we should have something like a one sentence summary for each section header in the article or a sentence or two that describes multiple arguments.
On a second point, the section "Constitutional status of the 1986 Internal Revenue Code in case law" does not have enough content to justify its own section IMO. So I think we need to either expand it or integrate it into another section. Morphh (talk) 3:09, 05 February 2008 (UTC)
I think we should take a look at sections 7,8, and 9 to see if we can fold this as sub-sections of other areas. Morphh (talk) 17:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:HEAD "Avoid restating or directly referring to the topic or to wording on a higher level in the hierarchy (Early life, not His early life)." So considering this... since the article is titled "constitutional arguments", should we drop the "argument" term from the headers. For example, instead of having "Sixteenth Amendment ratification arguments" and "Sixteenth Amendment effectiveness arguments", should we just say "Sixteenth Amendment ratification" and "Sixteenth Amendment effectiveness"? Morphh (talk) 2:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Couple other MOS things... we should go with one format of quoting. We're using both cquote and blockquote in this article - we need to choose one. I think I prefer blockquote or using the quote or quotation template (they each produce a different appearance). Also, according to WP:PUNC, "Punctuation marks are placed inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation is part of the quotation (this system is referred to as logical quotation)." I'm seeing instances where we're not following this by including the punctuation in the quote, when it should probably be outside the quote. Morphh (talk) 3:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
“ | this is the cquote tag | ” |
this is the quote tag or blockquote
this is the quotation tag
Is the term "Takings Clause" a proper noun? Should this be capitalized or lower case? Morphh (talk) 16:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
We have a couple sections that are pretty much just a quote by Evans ("Repeal clause" and "Other arguments"). I have no issue with using Evans or using his quote, but we need to expand these sections in our own words to discuss the viewpoints, and then use Evans to either convey the view or expand on it. I don't think we should have his quote be the section. Morphh (talk) 13:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, I have found one case so far that addresses this point, albeit indirectly. It's the Buchbinder case, which I have added to the article. Famspear ( talk) 15:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I have also added the quote from the Supreme Court case of Eisner v. Macomber. The taxpayers in the Buchbinder case had quoted from Eisner v. Macomber -- but they had conveniently left out the relevant parts of the quote that negated their own frivolous argument. The Tax Court saw right through that. In Eisner v. Macomber the U.S. Supreme Court indicated that the Sixteenth Amendment either modifies or partially repeals the original provisions of Article I of the Constitution -- with respect to taxes on income. Yours, Famspear ( talk) 16:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'll stop adding cases for now. There are many more court decisions rejecting the "due process of law" argument under the Fifth Amendment. And, I'm sorry I haven't had time to devote to this project lately. Thanks again to Morphh and BD2412! Yours, Famspear ( talk) 18:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I think we're close to submitting this article for Featured Article status. I've set up a peer-review to help get it ready for submission. Morphh (talk) 19:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I have nominated Tax protester constitutional arguments as a feature article candidate. If you're interested in responding to comments and addressing any issues that arise, please add the above FAC page to your watchlist. Also consider voting on the article. Thanks Morphh (talk) 17:58, 03 March 2008 (UTC)
I thought we had addressed all the main issues, but not enough to change the votes I guess. I thought it was closed a little early if the comments were read. The Gimmebot bot likely just looked at the count, which is not really how an FA should go in my view. Like most processes - it is a discussion and if the points are being addressed, it should be given a little more time to gain consensus. I thought the first two opposes whould be changed to support after this weekend (once we added some addtional footnotes - although I think the references section was enough to address the issue). I guess we can reread the comments and prepare for a resubmit after we feel good about it. The three main points seemed to be length, additional references, and the fundamental point of the article. We were addessing the additional referenes, which after Famspear goes through it, I'm sure will be sufficent. We're discussing length above, which we can address by creating some sub-articles with a summary style format. As far as the fundamental point of the article, I'm not sure how to best address Sparkgravity's concerns or if it is even the place in this article. Do we have any sources that state the general purpose of tax protesters is to battle against what they would deem as a miscarriage of justice? Morphh (talk) 15:24, 08 March 2008 (UTC)
I was also surprised that this was suddenly closed. No matter - we'll just keep working on it. I am also thinking about the suggestions by editor Sparkygravity and other editors, and how to address them. Thanks to editors Morphh and BD2412 and all who have worked on this article. Happily, the never-ending work continues! Famspear ( talk) 16:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)