![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I think that it is a very good idea, but I would like to make a complete collection of the syriac people, that is culture, religion, history, geography, important persons and so on. so that the picture of the syriac people will be much clearer. And I agree with that the Syriac name does cover the whole topic and can be used as an umbrella for all other names as aramean, assyrian, chaldean and so on. I would also like to stress out that our work shouldnt be based on the nationalistic views, we should rather to bring out the truth and to give a clear picture of the syriac people, And I hope that when the reader reads syriac then you know that I mean all denominations as arameans/assyrians/chaldeans and so on. Suryoyo
I've started this off to bring our discussions together. I'll put a message on the talk pages of those articles directly affected. I'll also remove current merge requests: I think the whole issue needs to be dealt with as one. -- Gareth Hughes 12:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Good idea, Gareth. But I think we should start this project by choosing a name that is impartial, and covers the whole topic. I'd like to suggest "Arameans/Assyrians/Chaldeans", or simply "Syriacs". -- Benne 14:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
It does underline the current dominance of Assyrianist terminology though. References to the Aramean heritage of the Syriacs are found in the writings of many authors in both the West and East Syriac traditions. See for example the site of the Syriac Universal Alliance. I strongly urge you to at least include the Arameans in the name of this project. In my opinion, a neutral point of view requires and implies a neutral name. Not very beautiful, but perhaps a way out of this discussion could be referring to the people as such:
This can vary according to the presence or absence of a specific group in an area. -- Benne 19:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that Assyro-Chaldean is a good name. That is also what the Assyrians/Chaldeans decided to be named in Iraq. As Gareth says, its how we define names in the articles thats important.
Since the Maronites article is considered to be a part of this project, the name Assyro-Chaldeans could in my opinion no longer be maintained. Not that the project was properly named before the Maronites were included in the list, but adding to the Maronites talk page the miniproject tag as it was would be incorrect and inappropriate. I bet you won't find many, if any, Maronites who call themselves Assyrians. (There are those who consider themselves Arameans, however.) Therefore, the only name applicable to the project is Syriacs. In the end, that is the English equivalent of the name that people from both Syriac traditions use, both West (Suryoye) and East (Suryāye).
Fush ba-shlomo/Push ba-shlāmā. ---- Benne ['bɛnə] ( talk) 23:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I am not so sure I agree with the following statement made by Gareth:
I realise that there is a strong current of Assyrianism among Syriacs in the European diaspora, but we should not underestimate the number of people who identify themselves as Arameans. There is a considerable number of organisations in the Netherlands and Germany that carry the name "Aramean", and I have the impression that the name Aramäer has become a very common self-identification in Germany. Interesting in this regard is the Aramäische Freie Christengemeinde in Bietigheim, Germany. Also, in an article in Der Spiegel on January 5, Syriacs are referred to as "Aramäer" only. These facts cannot and should not be disregarded in an encyclopedia that aspires to be neutral.
As for Turkey, the name Süryani has for centuries been, and as far as I know continues to be the most commonly used self-appellation, at least among West Syriacs. Not an authoritative source, but perhaps an indication might be suryaniler.com --the predominantly Turkish-language website for Syriacs--, where Süryani appears to be the prevalent name, more so than Aşuri (Assyrian) and Arami (Aramean).
This is an issue that needs to be thoroughly researched. Is anyone aware of statistical data in this regard? -- Benne ['bɛnə] ( talk) 11:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
There is lots of work to be done for the syriac article, the information about the syriacs in wikipedia is not organized.
1. We must agree on that the name Syriacs is from the word Syrian(Suryoyo) and that in modern times we have several identifications of syriacs as an nation some examples(Assyrian,aramean,chaldean,maronite).
The identity of the Syriacs should be considered as following when merging all the political wings.
1- Syriacs are an ethnic group.
2- Syriacs have several ethnic roots mostly(assyrian/aramean) but still other from the geografical syro- mesopotamia.
3- Syriacs are from Bethnahrin.
4- Syriac nation is Bethnahrin.
5- Syriac history starts from the sumerian ages to the diaspora.
6- Syriac are the indigious people of Bethnahrin.
7- Syriacs as a nation have the Aramaic language, but in history they have other, as accadian and other local languages. the neo aramaic have many ties with accadians wich was used by the assyrians and others babylonians(accadians/amorites...). and the local languages of the amorites(ethnically proto arameans).
8- Syriac in the middeaveal times have had several kingdoms, petra(Rekem), palmyra(Tadmor), Edessa(Urhoy), Sinjar, Hatra, Adiabene.
9- The last syriac stronghold is in the kesrwain mountains in lebanon. wich is the last stronghold for an independent state for syriacs. lasted from 678AD to 1305AD. and this is one of the major reasons why "maronites" are so strong in lebanon.
10- for the one that is interested kesrwain -> Kesroain, the one who can read syriac knows what this means. "Like Osroene", whereas osroene is -> "ten eyes", K->Like esro->ten, eyn->eyes. that is the people that moved from the kingdom of Bethesro(Edessa) called the lebanon mountains for kesrowain.
These above is just a few examples of the forming of the syriac identity.
11- for the last, it should be explaind very thoroughly about that the aramean/assyrian ideology is just a modern attempt [singel ethnic- nationalistic] way to create an identity of syriacs.
anyhow, I believe that put a good foundation for the syriac article by merging/integrating existing articles to the syriacs, [dont read syriac article]. But to the syriac people in wikipedia. one example is for example of Zenobia who is of Syriac descent but still several persons dispute this and claims that she is of other ethnicity. It is like to say that for example if aristoteles was born in athens, that he was athenian and not a greek.
Our view of what "Syriac" stand for is confusing. First of all I have made some thinking about this. I live in Sweden and the Arameans/Assyrians from Turkey namethemselves "Syrianer", "Syrianer" is not translated into english as far as I know since Syriac in english would be "Syrisk" in Swedish. The church is called "Syrianska Ortodoxa Kyrkan" here and sometimes "Syrisk Ortodoxa Kyrkan". The translated word for that is not "the Syrian Orthodox Church" as some of you may think now since "Syrian" means a citizen of Syria. The group you call "Syriacs" here, do not name themselves as "Syriacs" in Sweden nor the rest of Europe, they name themselves "Syrianer" in Sweden and "Aramäer" in Germany. Syriac = Syrisk in Swedish and we dont use that name here nor the rest of Europe to describe us. Some of us see Syriac as a modern term for our language while others see it as our church, and it is our church of course. But calling all the "Syrianer (Suryoye)" for Syriacs is wrong. My conclusion for this is that "Syriac" can not be the term for the "Syrianer (Suryoye)" since they do not use it. Syriac should be mentioned as the language and The Syriac Orthodox Church. But we have another problem,though. What the Suryoyes term should be since I know that Syriac is wrong because its not used in public. We could call all the Suryoye (Syrianer) for Arameans but all Suryoye do not see themselves as Arameans thats another fact so we have a big problem! My suggestion is that Syriac should only be termed as a language and The Syriac Orthodox Church. Although it could also represent all Assyrians/Chaldeans/Arameans but thats not fair to those in its people that does not accept the Syriac term for all groups. As far as I and many of you know "Assyrian" is a far more popular term then the others and they constitute the majority of the people so perhaps should it be the term for all the divided groups? I know that Assyro-Chaldean is accepted within the Assyrian partys but then the Arameans are left alone but when i think it over, isnt that the Arameans goal? I've read a lot of Aramaic propaganda and I've noticed it contains a lot of hate to the Assyrian term and its population. I think we must do something about this and think over and change our way of seeing these divied groups. The Assyrians and Chaldeans see eachother as one people with different Churches. Its only the Arameans left to accept their brothers as equal. It's a very complicated people both in religion,language and the terms. As many of us know the Assyrians/Arameans/Chaldeans are going for their end as it seems today. Then in the future our problem will be what we will call them. I hope you who read this have got some information about the situation. -- Yohanun 18:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I forgot to mention that 2000 census in the USA made it clear that all "Syrianer" (Suryoye) will be named Syriacs. Is it a fact that the US is trying to split us even more since they have done nothing but only betrayal in our home countrys, especially Iraq?-- Yohanun 20:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Does this article belong outside the main encyclopedic space? I am sure that projects belong elsewhere. bobblewik 17:43, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The article Assyrianism has been nominated for deletion. You are welcome to participate in the debate. -- Lambiam Talk 02:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |