This page and several related pages on Wikipedia make the popular and wholly unsupported claim that spirituals were used by members of the Underground Railroad to send "coded messages." The internet source cited in this page as a reference, "Spirituals as Coded Communication," is nice to look at but empty of content. (The Frederick Douglass quotation it uses as evidence is taken out of context and does not support the claim that spirituals contained hidden messages. Read My Bondage and My Freedom if you have doubts: In the passage quoted in footnote 13, Douglass and other slaves are singing the song as a /personal/ expression of their plans to escape, not as a means to communicate secretly with others, and in a later passage he writes that he will not reveal in his book any of the actual “pass-words” used by slaves and abolitionists to communicate certain “things, important to us” (280). In other words, this song's lyrics were not part of any code, at least according to Douglass. Claims of slave songs carrying secret messages may make people feel good today (I think that's why these stories are so popular), but repeating them isn't enough to make them true. At the very least, we should admit when we tell ourselves these stories that we don't have solid, historical evidence to show that songs were used in this manner. Jk180 20:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)jk180
The japanese manga "Jing: King of Bandits" has the first two verses of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot printed between chapters in Volume Six, an allegory of the events of the book. Is this worthy of mention?
It should be added that this spiritual refers to 2 Kings 2:1. (Prophet Elijah being taken up to heaven by a chariot).
I am having toruble formatting the lyrics to make them display correctly
[[User:Rex071404|
Rex071404
]]
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
I looked over Jordan And what did I see, Coming for to carry me home A band of angels Coming after me Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home
If you get there Before I do Coming for to carry me home Tell all my friends I'm coming too Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home
Sometimes I'm up And sometimes I'm down Coming for to carry me home But still my soul Feels heavenly bound Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home
I think perhaps we should include an explanation of why the England Rugby team uses this spiritual. The Story is at England_national_rugby_union_team#Post-War but is probably more appropriate here.
I put one here some time ago but somebody deleted it. It is pretty well atested too. I think there should still be a mention of the incident in the main article on the England rugby union team but feel free to edit it down. GordyB 10:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Just because your club in the US sang this song pre-88 does not mean that anybody in England did so. GordyB ( talk) 20:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
No hostility but this is an American song, it wouldn't be that surprising for Americans to be singing it. Also note that this is not a British tradition per se, it is only associated with the England team not English rugby as a whole and certainly not rugby in the other parts of the UK. GordyB ( talk) 23:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I find it intersting that the ENTIRE article is unreferenced.
John Mehlberg ( email) 17:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
As "one of the best-known spirituals," this article gives very little information on the song's origins. Most of the content is its modern use at sports games. That's not what the song is about. The "gestures" are not identified for their origin. This is clearly one of the secular versions (but which one?), not the version from church school. I don't feel the sports usage is particularly important; it doesn't fit with the article and it should be minimalized or nixed entirely. Willy Logan 05:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd add that even if the article were "clean", I would not recommend using it in a lesson. The unfortunate downside of an encyclopaedia that anyone can edit is that anyone can vandalise it. You would not want to open the article up and find that somebody had dlete the article and posted random swearwords (as does happen). GordyB 18:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Stop vandalising this article whether you like the rugby song or not, it exists and is notable. Continually deleting it is censorship and will be reverted. GordyB 12:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Can you add a reference to these gestures then please? At the very least there is no way they can be described as traditional! In any case what do you you think it serves adding these gestures. If you feel strongly about it then it would be acceptable to have a line saying something like "the song is sometimes song with sexual actions" If I didn't know already, I (might!) be interested to know that but I don't need to know what they are Take the page [Child_sexual_abuse]. It can discuss the issue but it does not need to go into detail. Remember that wikipedia is for everyone. It is not a place for you to create your own little bit of the web. I know you might be upset that people are deleting you text but should make you think that perhaps you could make the article better.
Graemec2 14:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Yep there is no doubt that you have a bona fide Wikipedia article there. But I suggest that you try going up to a stranger in the srteet(a policeman would be best) and give action number four to them. Just because something exists doesnt mean it automatically is suitable for wikipedia. Your english, im sure you have been to plenty of sporting events in the past where there have been racist_chanting yet I don't seem to be able to find that page on wikipedia. Yes wikipedia is meant to be free from censorship which is why I will not edit your offensive text alone. Im not going to visit this page again but I am certain you will have to make regular visits to revert edits from people who are "vandelising" "your page". ps I'm just wondering if I should stick the common repose sung by Scottish and Welsh fans. "You can stick your f***ing chariot up your arse" on the page. Im sure I can find a reference for it. pps Did you notice that used I f***ing there? Thats right I censored myself out of respect for others who might read this page. Maybe you might thing about doing the same. |||| Graemec2 13:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Clearly the association with Rugby is a distinct issue from the history of the traditional church hymn -- isn't that reason enough to break the drinking game out of the main page and into a seperate Swing Low, Sweet Chariot (rugby) page that can be then independently cross-referenced with Category:"Drinking Games" and Category:"Sports Anthems" tags? Teledyn 15:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
There isn't really a place for this in the article, but I just corrected an error that said Elvis Presley recorded the song for one of his movies. That was "Swing Down Sweet Chariot", a completely different song. 23skidoo 18:57, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
The history section begins with: "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot was composed by Wallis Willis" and later goes on to state: "Unfortunately, the original composer's name is permanently lost to history. Alexander Reid, a minister at a Choctaw boarding school, heard Willis singing the songs and transcribed the words and melodies." These statements seem absolutely contradictory, but neither has a source, so I'm unsure of how to approach correcting it. -=Worloq=- 19:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
The song is ranked #1200 of all-time at Acclaimed Music, a site which aggregates music critics lists from around the world to compose a "consensus" list of great music. Not sure if this merits mention in the article or not. I am not a flack for the site, just someone who uses it and thought it might merit mention. GBrady ( talk) 20:52, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
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In the past, a user has requested mediation on this issue. The dispute was resolved at 2009-02-22 by Computerjoe. For more information, see the case page.
I have removed the gestures section for a number of reasons. One, there should be some kind of reference to the idea that the gestures are associated with the song. In this case, a cultural reference is appropriate. Two or more would be good. I believe there may be a short scene of the song in
Blazing Saddles. The other reason I removed the content is that a masturbatory gesture in a popular folk song is dubious, though it may be true. As this is a case in which believability is suspect, a tag is not appropriate. Please source the content if you add it again.
Tealwisp (
talk) 02:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
ANd for another, you aren't even using the word "rugby" correctly. GordyB ( talk) 14:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Righteo, I'm mediating, providing that's okay with everyone. I would ask you to stay on-topic rather than discussing whether 'rugby' is accurate or not, this will only make heated debate.
Can a compromise be made? Perhaps the gestures existence could be mentioned in the article, but not elaborated on. The mention on the Irish Indie is clearly a reliable source, but this doesn't go into detail on these gestures. Is the other source as reliable? If not, the details cannot be included as they're not verifiable with the sources given. But its existence can be confirmed, and mention.
Is this agreeable for all? Computerjoe 's talk 00:41, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Computerjoe did not mention that any source has to go into the gestures' significance merely that the 3rd party source needs to confirm that the gestures are as stated. GordyB ( talk) 10:05, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Tealwisp asked me to drop by here. This is a pure content dispute, so me being an admin doesn't really have a bearing. I can offer an opinion as an uninvolved user, though. It is my opinion that we don't need the whole recapitulation of the gestures in the song. We don't have to show that the information is "notable" per-se (As notability guidelines do not delimit content), but we do need to show that the gestures in the rugby song are not being given undue weight relative to their importance. And, IMO, relative to the importance of the song as a whole, the specific gestures used in the fight song aren't really all that important. Arguably Wikipedia:Lyrics and poetry suggests we shouldn't rely on a full quote of the lyrics period, let along accompanying gestures of derivative works. We wouldn't include the fully lyrics to a parody or cover of this song. Just my thoughts. Protonk ( talk) 18:26, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. I don't see the need to reference the exact usage of the gestures but I take the point about undue emphasis. GordyB ( talk) 13:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
This whole article is some what wrong. Is it really a black gospel song? Are or black people trying to steal another Gospel like they are trying to do Amazing grace, even though Amazing Grace was made by a British.
Wallace Willis was a black slave whose master owned a plantation within the Choktaw nation. That doesn't make him Native American. The whole attribution to Wallace Willis is sketchy, and frankly this Wikipedia article is the only major source I've found tht attributes the song to WW. Some other internet sites seem to rely on this source in giving such attribution. And how have black people been trying to steal Amazing Grace? even if an ignoranty comment or two have been made, when has an actual claim of authorship for that song been made on behalf of a black composer? Tedborgerding ( talk) 06:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
THis song is AMAZING!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.177.97.39 ( talk) 16:25, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the {{ Allmusic}} template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links:
-- CactusBot ( talk) 11:17, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
There's a song on The Ballad of Sally Rose that closes the album, and it's called "Sweet Chariot", the chorus is:
Any objections on including this allusion here? It's an important album (if commercially a failure) in E. Harris' career.
dnik ► 12:44, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
""Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" was written by Wallis Willis, a Choctaw freedman in the old Indian Territory in what is now Choctaw County, near the County seat of Hugo, Oklahoma sometime before 1862."
It seems unlikely that Wallis Willis was a Choctaw freedman before the Civil War.
/info/en/?search=Choctaw_Freedmen "The Choctaw freedmen were enslaved African Americans who became part of the Choctaw Nation with emancipation after the American Civil War, a requirement of the 1866 treaty the US made with the Choctaw."
Kenif ( talk) 03:16, 16 March 2014 (UTC
I agree, there is a problem. There is a link in this article to Choctaw freedmen. The dates seem incompatible. Instead of "before 1862" it seems it should be "after 1865", so I'll make that change. Marlindale ( talk) 01:30, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
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I'm afraid the info in this article is incorrect. The spiritual was originally notated by Ella Sheppard, and her arrangement was sung by the Fisk Jubilee Singers of Nashville. The spiritual was sung by enslaved Africans on plantations throughout the South before the Civil War. Wallis Willis may have heard a version of it and attempted to claim credit for it. But the true credit for the manuscript belongs to Ella Sheppard. Nina07011960 ( talk) 19:23, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
It cannot have been first composed "sometime after 1865" and "Written Prior to 1862" [photo box] at the same time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starhistory22 ( talk • contribs) 05:10, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Archeophone discovered a rendition of this song from 1894 by the Standard Quartette making that that the first recording. [1] Gandalf the Groovy ( talk) 00:08, 20 December 2022 (UTC)