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Tologo bah? Idk what this is
I was reading the Aries article. There was a link for tropical astrology. I clicked on it to open it in a separate tab. Then I clicked on the link for sidereal astrology to open in a separate tab. Then I find the two subjects are combined into one article. I am trying to do research and come to an article that is about comparing the two systems. Actually, it doesn’t even do that. There is a brief mention of tropical astrology in the opening paragraph. Then the rest of the short article is all about sidereal astrology.
This is not what I was expecting. I have read the multiple issues box and this talk page. Maybe if the two subjects were split, it would be easier to write about them. You probably should split the Vedic astrology off onto its own page as well. That way you would know they are all different systems/disciplines, because they have separate articles.
As for the Ophiuchus debate. It has to be mentioned as some people are using it. It doesn’t matter if they are correct or not. Just say that there is a controversy about it, then give the pros and cons like you do on other articles. If it doesn’t specifically apply to sidereal, tropical, or Vedic systems, put it in the general Astrology article.
I may not be explaining this clearly, but this is my point of view as someone who is using Wikipedia for research. Rod Lockwood ( talk) 13:35, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
The statement "Its primary feature is that the signs of the zodiac align to the sky constellations of the same name." is erroneous. Unless by coincidence, the only time the sidereal zodiac aligns with the sky constellations of the same name, is for Aries. After 0 Aries, sidereal astrologers use a 30 degree segment of the sky, despite the fact that the constellations themselves are not of 30 degree longitudinal length. As an example, the table later refers to the sun entering the constellation Leo on August 10th, yet the sidereal Leo begins on August 16th. People may read this statement and assume that the sidereal zodiac is a reflection of the actual constellations (indeed many siderealists suggest as much), but it is not, it is JUST the starting point that is based on the actual constellations (namely 0 degrees Aries). Should it be revised? ( Xpaulk ( talk) 12:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC))
"Western astrologers have never done a catching up exercise and many still do not fully understand the implications of their error." - does this breach NPOV or not?-- Paul C 09:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC) My vote is that it does. Joey 15:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
My vote is that it does. Joey 15:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm getting a 404 on both references Nik42 03:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
why do all these articles bring up this Ophicuus nonsense? This is a complete red herring, discussed as a result of a total lack of understanding of the system. The signs are used to mark 30 deg stretches, the stretches are not aligned with the size of the signs (otherwise, they would not be 30 degrees each, but vary with the size of their respective constellation). The Babylonians picked 12 constellation because they needed 12 constellations for their system, it doesn't matter if there are additional constellations touched upon by the sun's path. This is also unrelated to the sidereal vs. tropical discussion and shouldn't even be brought up here. dab (ᛏ) 08:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
O.k, Ophiuchus nonsense? :L Well, I'm really sorry to be the one pointing it out but Astrology as such does not make much sens to start with. However: 1.it been in the media for some reasons. 2, since Ophiuchus is also a constellation it made as much sens as using other constellations... 3. At this point, this article ought to be scientific and academic... But it's not like if one were looking at the laws of physics or at chemistry... It's more like studying culture and religion; there been books and "studies" showing a 13&14 signs in sidereal astrology, and even if there is some debate some people believe that... Therefor it ought to be mention somewhere.
How to organize this should be the question, and I think there is something somewhere about that. Since I don't really know how to write and I really don't care about astrology... That will not be me doing that. Therydicule ( talk) 05:16, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
ok, it transpires from the article that there are at least three types of "sidereal astrology",
these should be cleanly disambiguated here. At present, it is far from obvious that such divergent systems are being lumped together. dab (ᛏ) 09:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the article could use a little further delineation between the three systems. However, I do not agree that it is as ambiguous and misleading as the above suggests. Astrology is a very complicated science and it was developed over centuries by people who had to be able to think in multidimensional terms in order to survive. We are living in a digital age and our expectations for understanding multidimensional concepts has not only increased, our capacity to comprehend them as quickly has decreased as we now have computers to think for us. Without computers, using what we would consider primitive tools, ancient astronomers and astrologers were predicting eclipses of the sun and moon to the hour. These are complicated concepts and I believe the article handled them well in the space most allow for understanding any concept today.
Regarding the comment about the three "camps" of siderealists; the Hindu and Western sidereal systems are based on similar calculations with one of the main differences being that Vedic or Jyotish system uses the Lahiri positions for the planets placing them 53 minutes further along in the zodiac. The Lahiri system was certified by the Indian government which means they must have done considerable research into it.
The naysaying siderealists who are now using the constellation Ophiuchus to invalidate Western traditional astrology on the basis that astrologers knew nothing about it are exposing their ignorance of the field. Astrologers have known about it as have astronomers for decades if not centuries. Baliene ( talk) 15:30, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Ophiuchus is beside Scorpio in the eclectic path. So it would not be accurate to refer to it as a thirteenth sign. it is still the same 30 degrees as Scorpio. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
166.205.136.112 (
talk) 14:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree that this article needs cleaning. As a person researching Astronomy, and astrology for the first time, I find this work cryptic. How, for example, did the first people maping the zodiac figure out when the sun was in that sign when the sun was up? That story would clarify a lot. What, exactly, does it mean to have a sun sign in Pieces or Aries? In tradition A, B, and C, since they are obviously different. What are they measuring. This basic question does not have an apparent answer. The paragraph: "While classical tropical astrology is based on the orientation of the Earth relative to the Sun and planets of the solar system, sidereal astrology deals with the position of the Earth relative to both of these as well as the stars of the celestial sphere. The actual positions of certain fixed stars as well as their constellations is an additional consideration in the horoscope." means almost nothing to me. And while some might complain about our modern inability to conceptualize these complex topics (somewhat true), I find the problem in this instance to be a lack of clear writing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scaeascaea ( talk • contribs) 16:03, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
What's everyone's take on sidereal astrology? I know not much about it, but I have to denounce it for one simple reason. - My birthday is March 10, and according to sidereal astrology I'm an Aquarius, but for tropical it's Pisces. I believe my personality traits go exactly in accordance with the zodiac of Pisces; not merely because I want this to be the case, but because it is. Also as for everyone else I know, their traits fit in along with tropical astrology's dates, as well.-- Tainted Drifter 01:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The Sun sign is only part of your astrological make-up. I was born under Sagittarius but my personality is pure Capricorn. JKC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.106.252.209 ( talk) 14:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Oh, thanks for not answering my question, man. Yeah, yeah, it also goes by location and time, etc. Nice way of trying to show off you know more about astrology than the average person...but didn't help me one bit.-- Tainted Drifter 06:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
After doing the math, I was moved to correct the 39.5 day shift, It is actually 25.5 days shifted between "magazine astrology" and "sidereal astrology"- A 39.5 day shift would result in 0 matching dates between the 2 systems, a 25.5 day shift would result in about 48 matching dates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.233.52.60 ( talk) 04:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC) .
I have been observing both tropical, sidereal, and vedic or Hindu astrology for about 30 years. I have compared charts using all three systems, using the tropical (placidus house system) with the sidereal transits, as well as the sidereal campanus house system and the sidereal system for transits. I find them all valid and applicable. Essentially, the systems are tools and each person needs to find the tool that works for them. Also, chart interpretation is a skill that requires much more than the actual tools, an intuitive/empathic nature, an ability to not see yourself in your client's chart and a desire to take all viable tools into consideration. In the final analysis all of these systems have something to offer and in fact compliment one another. I.e., one might have the sun and ascendant in capricorn and the moon in sag using the tropical system, then in the sidereal system the sun moves to "sag" however, venus and mercury are in capricorn with capricorn intercepted in the first house with a sag ascendant.
Regarding life cycles (transits) the readings from both tropical and sidereal also coincide. Baliene ( talk) 15:05, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
April 20th is missing under tropical.
[see [1]] Zodiac & calendar had a common origin in remote antiquity, when time measurers synthesised lunar months and solar years. Eventually, to anchor the synthesis in the stars, they used the exact opposition between Aldebaran & Antares because both were bright and easily located. Taurus began the year during the Age of Taurus, when the Vernal Equinox was near the Pleiades, and Aldebaran was called The Follower, rising about an hour later (15 degrees). When the Vernal Equinox eventually precessed back to Aldebaran, it was called the Eye of the Bull (midpoint of Taurus). As the start of the year then, it was the target for priests to use to define social time for their societies. The bull's eye became a general metaphor for centrality and archers called the centre of their targets the bull's eye by analogy.
Since agriculture required a seasonal frame of reference, the year was anchored on the equinoxes and solstices. Collective experience and social inertia sustained this view despite Aries displacing Taurus as leader of the zodiac when precession necessitated. When Hipparchus realised that the apparently fixed frame of reference was moving relative to the stars, the zodiac became defined as tropical, but its constellation names got duplicated in this new abstract scheme. As Einstein explained, when two frames of reference are in relative motion, the relativity must be defined in relation to the observer. Observers prefer to consider their situation as static, so the tropical frame has endured. That it is static in common experience, but in motion if you are an astronomer, is what causes the confusion. Politics is a numbers game, and astronomers are outnumbered. It would help if media were to admit the relativity of the dual frames of reference. Meaning is relative to context, so social reality must acknowledge the seasons as the primary structure of common experience of passing time. Which brings us to the northern hemispheric bias resulting from consensus. For us living in the south of Gaia, the vernal equinox symbolises Autumn! [[[User:Dennis Frank (NZ)|Dennis Frank (NZ)]] ( talk) 20:01, 9 March 2020 (UTC)Dennis Frank, Aotearoa, 10/3/20]
References
I've noticed that the articles on wikipedia seem eskewed toward the sidereal stance. For example, on the Tropical Astrology page it mentions that "Sidereal astrologers also point out the absurdity of applying northern hemisphere seasons to the whole planet when there are now large populations within the southerm hemisphere who experience seasons six months apart from those in the north." and refer to the astrological signs as 'star' signs. The Sidereal article, on the other hand, ALSO denounces Tropical astrology saying "Some sidereal astrologers denounce tropical astrologers for failing to relate to the "actual heavens,"". It seems that a rebuttal of tropical astrology is seen on both the tropical and the sidereal article with no equally competing rebuttal of sidereal astrology found on either. This seems intellectually dishonest, and so I have included a rebuttal of sidereal astrology in the sidereal article just as there is a rebuttal of tropical in the tropical article. Xpaulk ( talk) 10:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't think a statement is "skewed" if you state whose Point of View it represents. Sooku ( talk) 20:00, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Would someone knowledgeable like to explain how tropical astrology deals with people born in the southern hemisphere. Since the signs align to the northern hemisphere equinoxes and solstices then surely southern hemisphere people should have a 6 month lag in their sign. Lumos3 ( talk) 16:11, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
The problem evaporates when interpreting signs on a non-seasonal basis. When the signs of the zodiac were given archetypal meaning deriving from the modes and elements, interpretation became transportable and regional cultural bias eliminated. The three by four matrix allocates unique meanings to each sign. These twelve archetypes were not present back when the year was created via solar transit of constellations - culturally, I mean, since these archetypes emerge from nature and operate in the subconscious regardless. Note that astrologers use these qualitative stages of a generic time cycle to interpret houses and aspects similarly to signs. The sequential mapping of the archetypal cycle into reality is used to make the same twelve phase relationships significant in all three cases. Dennis Frank (NZ) ( talk) 20:30, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
The reference http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersmemorial/fagan.html used in this topic is inadequate and needs to be removed or replaced with something supportive. Terry Macro ( talk) 02:36, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
The insistence on inserting airy claims that sidereal astrology is "Vedic" is just malicious.
In reality, you cannot have either "sidereal" or "tropical" astrology before you discover the precession of the equinoxes, because you won't be able to tell the difference between the two.
The precession of the equinoxes was discovered by Hipparchus. There isn't a shred of evidence that it had been discovered anywhere else in the world prior to that. Unless you have astoundingly excellent references to the contrary ( WP:REDFLAG), please just leave it alone. -- dab (𒁳) 15:06, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
"The dates the Sun passes through the 13 astronomical constellations of the ecliptic are listed below, accurate to the year 2002. The dates will increment by one day every 70½ years, and already several have changed. The corresponding tropical and sidereal dates are given as well."
Is the year mentioned correct?
58.161.138.202 ( talk) 14:10, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
The article's sole external reference got deleted, allegedly because it violates WP:ELNO. I don't think that is accurate, so I reverted the deletion. This appears to be a good faith mistake. If anybody still thinks it DOES violate WP:ELNO, then please explain why.-- Other Choices ( talk) 01:08, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
The article is clearly wrong on the timeline when the tropical zodiac was created and introduced, or rather, when sidereal and tropical did align. According to Meeus, J.; Savoie, D. (1992), The history of the tropical year, Journal of the British Astronomical Association, 102 (1): p. 40, the tropical zodiac was introduced by Hipparchus during the 2nd century BCE, as by his time, it had become devastatingly clear that the astronomical spring equinox had drastically shifted from the meteorological one. The time when both had been identical had actually been during the 3rd millennium BCE. Western astrology has always preserved the state from this time, especially with the tropical zodiac, which suggests that the 3rd millennium BCE was when the zodiac and astrology had reached their final form in regards to picking an astronomical marker for the spring equinox.
As Hipparchus lived roughly two centuries after Alexander the Great, it is understandable that the news did not reach India until modernity, which is why Indian astrology has always used the sidereal zodiac. (There are even a number of scholarly sources, both Indian and Western (inncluding Pingree, David (1973), The Mesopotamian Origin of Early Indian Mathematical Astronomy, Journal for the History of Astronomy, SAGE. 4 (1): p. 1–12, Samuel, Samuel (2010), The Origins of Yoga and Tantra, Cambridge University Pres, p. 81, and Witzel, Michael (25 May 2001), Autochthonous Aryans? The Evidence from Old Indian and Iranian Texts, Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies. 7 (3)), which say that astrology (as apart from astronomy and keeping time by means of the stars) did not reach India up until Alexander to begin with, and according to which, any other claims exclusively derive from racist Hindu nationalist sources.) Accordingly, all sources in the article that claim that sidereal and tropical zodiac did align as late as "2,000 years ago" are modern Jyotisha sources which have never actually used the tropical zodiac to begin with. -- 2003:EF:1706:3292:D81F:AE49:9AB4:C825 ( talk) 17:15, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
There was never alignment. The Zodiac signs were never meant to align with constellations. They were simply named based on the closest constellations. Furthermore, the equal division of the sky and tropical year was Babylonian. Our modern names are Greek. Our modern sidereal divisions of the entire celestial sphere by constellation is by recent convention. The twelve divisions of the ecliptic into exactly 30° was always tropical. And just as today, 0° is the Vernal Equinox, aka "first point of Aries" irrespective of the background constellations (the Tropic of Aries is tropical not sidereal). We literally call the solstices and 23+° latitudes the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn and have done so since ancient times. It may have been convenient for the Greeks to name each of the 30° signs of the tropical ecliptic based on nearby sidereal constellations at the time, but the two concepts are entirely and incompatibly different. 46.230.139.178 ( talk) 11:04, 5 March 2023 (UTC)