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My Wikidness, you seem to be the other editor interested in this article. If you're interested in working together on this, may I suggest that we do it one section at a time? This is a long, complicated article, and doing one section at a time would help us keep track of what we're doing. I'm open to suggestions on which part you'd like to start with. - FisherQueen ( Talk) 13:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
At the moment the the SIF Concerns section is written like an essay. It reads like it is attempting to prove the SIF's points. The Section False Statistics by feminists has no place on Wikipedia for 3 reasons. First is its unverifiable claim about Bride Burning, second because of the contestability of the statement the big lie about the 70% of Indian Women & domestic violence (not NPOV) and third because it violates Wikipedia policy WP:POVPUSH. An appropriate version of this section would be... The SIF is involved in activism against the domestic violence Law in India that was implemented on October 26th, 2006. The SIF claim the law, could be abused by women and described the government that implemented the law as Fascist. ” [1] The SIF is also concerned about section 498a of the Indian Penal Code, which provides for the arrest of a man, his parents, siblings and friends if that man's wife complains of harassment and cruelty by him and his family. The SIF are concerned that the accused can be jailed without a warrant. citation needed The organization is also concerned about the rate of male suicide claiming that many married men are driven to suicide by their wives. citation needed I have not edited the page yet. If anyone objects to this proposed edit discuss here. Please note I am posting here in good faith and edits done to this page by this user will be in good faith. If you wish to object do so civilly, but NPOV and non-conflict of interest posts please.-- Cailil 21:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
FisherQueen and Cailil, I am requesting couple of Indian editors from Wikipedia:WikiProject_India to work on this article.-- Newageindian 12:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
It is a fact that feminists can not tolerate any organisation or article which talks about men's issues. Both FisherQueen and Cailil are feminists or they are at least opposed to masculist issues. So, it is ridiculous for Cailil to falsely claim that he is acting on "good faith". Here is the evidence. Cailil came to the talk page with a fixed mindset to work towards deleting this article and yet he claimed that he is working under good faith. Earlier, Fisherqueen had requested the feminists in Talk:Project Gender Studies to support her designs and Cailil had offered to list the article under Afd. The agenda by them was to vandalise the article by deleting citations, content and to list it for deletion. I humbly request both FisherQueen and Cailil (both from Ireland) to stop editing this article any further and read the previous Afd discussion. I will work towards restoring all the contents and citations deleted by them. Newageindian 14:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Newageindian I'm returning to comment here after some time and some thought. First I'd like to compliment you on some improvements you've made to this page. Your merger and redirect from Protect Indian Family was an appropriate decision. The secondary sources (Hindustan Times and Times of India) are exactly what was needed here. I still take issue with the way the the SIFF Concerns section is presented. I mentioned in my first post that this article reads like and essay. I said this because and it uses facts to make a point, have a look at WP:SYNT for clarification. I also think the link to the yahoo group is bad for the article, in my view its spam because it just promotes SIFF (a link to their homepage is already listed). I apologize if any of my previous posts sounded aggressive, I wouldn't delete anything from this (or any other) article without spelling out why and seeking consensus. You're doing a good job making this page verifiable and appropriate to Wikipedia - keep that up. I am sorry to say that I do still have reservations about the notability of SIFF, I would recommend asking a wider pool of Edtors to give their responses in an RfC-- Cailil 21:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I find the article one of the more extreme examples of POV I have seen on WP: one of the section headings was "False statistics by feminists" One of the summaries of a newspaper account about a particular police district generalized it to all of India. The nature of the organisation is a men's right's organization, but the first sentence misleadingly called it a "social organisation"--and various biased wording throughout. (The very name of the organisation is POV, but WP can't help that). NPOV requires more than including a section of criticism, it requires fair statements throughout the article. I have made a first pass, and fixed a number of copyediting problems as well. I will try to take another look later today. I am not sure what the comment about Notability means--is there doubt that the organisation is a significant force in Indian affairs? DGG 00:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The word Family can have different meanings in different civilisations. In India, the society is family centric and a family includes children, parents, grandparents, great grandparents. It is a big team, in which the team members are supposed to synergize to create stability in the lives of family members. It is not mandatory that all the members of this big team have to stay under one roof. India does not have a social security system and proper old age homes. So, elders are heavily dependent on the children in their old age. Children(especially sons) are socially and morally expected to take care of their elderly parents in their old age. This comes in conflict with women's rights(rather wife's rights). The phrase "Save Indian Family" can mean saving this bigger team from misery and pre-empting a possibility of the whole family getting imprisoned. As the law enforcement system is highly corrupt [11], the families often face blackmail or extortion. If a family anticipates a Section 498a lawsuit and if it gets proper legal awareness in time and acts accordingly, the family can often save itself from imprisonment, if the lawsuit is frivolous. Please note, laws against perjury or malicious prosecution are ineffective in India.-- Newageindian 09:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
According to Benjamin Franklin, "Laws too gentle are seldom obeyed; too severe, seldom executed". This law Section 498a is too severe, so real victims may not use it, where as the rich and influential misuse it in a corrupt system. It is fine if people are arrested for couple of hours (and get bail), when they get accused of intimate partner violence. But, in case of section 498a, the accused family is imprisoned for 2 days to 10 days without conducting any investigation. In India, the social standing is very important for a family and it gets irrepairably damaged once the family gets imprisoned even for a few days. The facilities in most Indian jails are worse that of concentration camps.-- Newageindian 09:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Gokulpr 07:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC) Reposted the Protect Indian Family article and reinstated the link on Save Indian Family article Gokulpr 07:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I've replaced the STOP BEFORE YOU EDIT template because I'm not sure about its place there. My Wikidness is welcome to explain it if he likes. For the time being I've added a template of my own:
It's neither offical nor perfect. But it is more appropriate to this article. Another tag could be added to show this page is being clean-ed up but I'm not a 100% sure that it's neccessary. I'm also going to tag this talk page as part of Project Gender Studies seeing that it is about an organization whose core issues are gender and gender law related-- Cailil 15:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC) P.S. thanks to Slp1 for typo correction in the tag : )-- Cailil 17:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi all,
I have begun the footnoting as suggested by Cailil above, and moving some references to more appropriate (to me) places. I have only got part way, as you can see!
I have deleted only one reference, the WHO elder abuse report, since it is talking about elder abuse and not the SIF or its particular concerns. It is too bad that so many of the other references substantiate the issues but do not mention SIF.
I have also reorganized the concerns sections a bit, putting all the legal concerns together in a section and in chronological order, thinking it may read better this way. I hope this is okay with people --
Slp1 03:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I have been thinking more about this article and am going to suggest that the subsections within the criticism sections be limited to a brief description of the law/situation and then SIF's concerns. The other information (about the Centre for Social Research India, Supreme Court decision, Renuka Chowdhury etc) should be moved to the WP articles about the Laws etc, and not be here. This article should be about SIF not about the rights and wrongs of the issue per se. I am proposing to do this in a day or so if there is no disagreement. -- Slp1 04:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I have a question though. Should the article be renamed Save Indian Family Foundation, since that seems to be the official name, based on the website? -- Slp1 15:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure who keeps editing out the justice Saldhana's reportage of 44% of the dowry detah calims being unjustifiable. This is vandalism to the core. Now do I have to keep putting it back every day ? bharati
I have edited out the siff claism of 23000 men being driven to sucide for the simple reaon it was reported in midday bangalore and exists as a central claim by siff in in its website. Since mentioned as a claim we need to have support of evidence of its claim not actual fact whether 23000 men were driven to sucide or not. bharati
The actaul fact of te 23000 number is based on the statistical method called factorial analysis
219.64.78.64 19:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC) bharati
I am hoping that I can count on you to help find some appropriate sources for the statements. -- Slp1 21:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Possible removal of the "Harassed husbands far outnumber wives" link under "further reading" - it links to a statement by SIF, but could instead link to the original source of the information - the publicly available NCRB report at http://ncrb.nic.in/CD-ADSI2009/table-2.10.pdf - to find the relevant numbers, you can just search "dowry dispute" - the SIF claim appears to be incorrect when you examine the NCRB report as well. LikaTika ( talk) 04:32, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
At the bottom of the accurate reporting section there is an (as yet) unsubstantiated line: "SIF claims that incidence of Bride burning is exaggerated." In line with the other posts on this page such a claim needs not only to verifiable but to be notable. I've been looking at this line for a whole month now waiting for someone who can vefy it to do so. As it is the line looks like a WP:POVPUSH because it is unsourced and not particularly notable - unless newspaper articles and/or books are written about SIFF's objection to Bride Burning claims that sentence will have to be reviewed.-- Cailil 17:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Further to my request above, and the lack of any response, I have done a google search as well as a look through the SIF website and all the references in the article. I cannot find any [[WP:RS| reliable source] for any of the following sentences and therefore have removed them from the article. If anybody can find a reliable source for this then we can certainly add them back.
-- Slp1 17:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I didn't do the whole review, though I read the whole thing. I quick failed it based on the fact that there were no images and the article was far from thorough, missing key information about who founded it as well as actual example of their work as opposed to what their goals are, read way too much like an "About us" page on the company website. A mcmurray ( talk • contribs) 12:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I took some time away from the article so I could take a fresh look and assess A mcmurray's points. In all honesty they're correct. The Aims and Objectives section is inappropriate to Wikipedia - this was the original position of myself and Slp1 and Fisherqueen but we had to compromise in the name of WP:AGF. Perhaps it was a case of interpellation that we came to accept this section. I making atemporary rewrite now. If anyone feels anything impoirtant has been removed please add it ONLY if you can source it from a reliable source (see WP:ATT).-- Cailil 13:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I've made a number of drastic alterations to the page. First is the reorganization of sections. I've split SIFF Aims into 3: Stated Aims, Issues and Support. the sections, stated aims and support, conatin ONLY the information pertinent to either SIFF's sated aims or its support network and nothing else. The issues section contains the majority of the information moved from SIFF Aims section. It has been reworded in places for NPOV and clarity. Everything that has been removed (including the paragraph on "accurate reproting") has been removed because it hs not been covered with enough notability or uses references that are not about SIFF or uses refs "like an essay" which violates WP:SYNT. My expansion of SIFFs aims is on the very limit of notability. The only "published" source is from their own website. If anyone wants to expand this more notable sources would be neccessary. The final thing that the page needs at the moment is information about its leaders and a picture. If anyone can provide that info it would vastly improve the article.-- Cailil 14:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It is unnecessary to use 'alleged' before 'misuses of domestic violence legislation such as Section 498a of the Indian Penal Code (1983) and the Protection of Women Against Domestic Violence Act 2005' in the 'Issues' section. The misuse of Section 498a of the Indian Penal Code is a well-known fact and has been discussed by many circles of Indian media (although relatively few than those discussing women's issues) and by many organizations and people (obviously not by feminists). So it is unnecessary to put the adjective 'alleged' while pointing the misuse of Section 498a of Indian Penal Code.
Otolemur crassicaudatus 12:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Bharati- would a judgement by a supreme court of India suffice as reliable source ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.95.11.152 ( talk) 15:13, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
there can never be completely reliable source . Mens organisations may not considers areliable many sources but still we do not use alledged—Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.161.145.240 ( talk • contribs) 16:38, 18 November 2007
Please review the changes. The old parts are commented out, with my notes/explanations.
Prabhakar ( talk) 07:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I note that user: ForesticPig Contribs is travelling around trying to delete all Wikipedia references to Save Indian Family. This user is on a mission. I don't have any time to police her deletion spree, but encourage others involved in this entry to keep a watch on her edits. 58.165.74.59 ( talk) 00:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I have tried to add some information about the NGOs allied to SIF ideologicaly, with their links, but have found it edited out by Cailil. I find that Cailil from Ireland, belongs to a 'Feminism Task Force', and hence may have a vested interest here. This is what I found edited out.
CRISP
CRISP (Children's Rights Initiative for Shared Parenting ) is an NGO working for the joint/shared custody of both parents in cases of seperation/divorce [12]. Akin to similar men's organisations around the world, it fights the brainwashing of one child against the other parent, by alienating that parent.
All India Forgotten Women
Spearheaded by Uma Challa, [13] the NGO fights for the rights of women affected by the anti-male laws as 'collateral damage'. [14]
Please call your nearest SIF contact number given in their website http://www.saveindianfamily.org.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Parthasarathy B ( talk • contribs) 11:08, 1 December 2008
I'm very glad to see that you are discussing edits on the talkpage, Parthasarathy, rather than just reverting. That's great. Thank you. But in fact I agree with Cailil's edit. [15] This is an encyclopedia. It is not a place to advertise or promote Save Indian Family or any other organization. We don't include information about how to contact the organization, for example. See WP:PROMOTION for more details. Material must also be of neutral point of view which the above certainly isn't. Cailil also removed a whole host of external links, very appropriately per WP:NOTLINK. BTW, please comment on the edits, not the editor, as you did about Cailil above. Assuming good faith is important around here. -- Slp1 ( talk) 02:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I wish people were polite, and pointed out any discrepancy they might have noticed, and not wiped out a whole important section, namely the allied NGOs of SIF - which is what I have edited, WITH references.
Secondly, I might be new around here, but am shocked by whole sections being wiped out, and called 'editing' by a person who claims to be from a feminist him/herslf, and from Ireland. He can leave out 'How to contact' section, if he finds that disturbing his/her feminist sensitivities, but why not the allied NGOs? Thats totally unethical by itself!
Parthasarathy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parthasarathy B ( talk • contribs) 05:19, 2 December 2008
I have just spent nearly two hours doing a major edit of this article. This was motivated by the need to remove large quantities of original research and unverifiable material. For future reference, it is important that any additions follow these policy requirements. Citations to this article need to come from reliable sources that actually mention SIF. Citing material from other, related organizations (e.g. www.498a.org) is not acceptable for the views and objective of SIF. Nor is it acceptable to combine information from different sources to make a point per WP:SYNT. Wikipedia is also not the place where you can promote an organization or your views per WP:SOAPBOX. Please do not reinsert this material without discussing its appropriateness here on the talkpage first.-- Slp1 ( talk) 16:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
The recent additions, (likely by supporters of this organization) are quite problematic. Some tags have been added to the article, and I will attempt to clean it up in the next little while, using edit summaries to explain my edits. In particular, there are large chunks of unsourced text which attempt to argue the positions of SIF. This is not the place to publicize, argue and advocate the group's concerns. Instead, it is an article about SIF.
My first step has been to request deletion of the gigantic figures. These have been copy and pasted from internet sources without appropriate permissions, and thus will likely be deleted as copyright violations. I will also shortly be deleting from the "Further reading" section any article that does not mention SIF. As mentioned above, Wikipedia is not in the business of making collections of indiscriminate links or information. External links need to add information about SIF. -- Slp1 ( talk) 14:46, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Slp1 ,
"My first step has been to request deletion of the gigantic figures. These have been copy and pasted from internet sources without appropriate permissions, and thus will likely be deleted as copyright violations."
Why will the suicide data be under any copyright.Please point out what sort of permissions would you need to publish data that has been published for the government for distribution in the public . The data on the suicide of husbands has been sourced from a report the was published for the general public by the Indian Government's National crime records bureau and did not infringe on any copy rights. This data has been authorized to have been shared and distributed to raise awareness . The data was sourced from http://ncrb.nic.in/ADSI2007/Suicides07.pdf and that did not have any details related to copyrights . -- 129.33.1.37 ( talk) 15:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
The second screenshot of the misuse of section 498a has been sourced from the site 498a.org which is an allied NGO with SIF and we henceforth have the permission to quote this data . This data again has been obtained from openly distributed data by the government of India and does not infringe any copyrights.-- 129.33.1.37 ( talk) 15:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
-- Arnab221 ( talk) 23:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC) Hello Slp1 , The photos are my personal property since I took them in SIF rallies. I still could not understand the neutrality point of view in the 498a.org data. When I am just stating that this may people have been arrested on a charge vs this many have been acquitted how can I be partial ? The data has been provided by the government , does plotting the data on a graph become partial ? It is for the reader to infer whatever he may want to feel about it after reading the graph. Also the data on suicides is completely neutral since it just shows the number of suicides in a year in India . It is again for the people to infer the data after reading it . Lastly would you be satisfied if I provide the data in tabular format myself without the graphs without the polemic titles ? Would it be impartial then ? , Please advice . -- Arnab221 ( talk) 23:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
-- Arnab221 ( talk) 23:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC) Hello Slp1, Whats the reason behind removing the You tube links alongside the Marital law misuse in popular culture section . Can't I put a link that allows the viewer to watch the youtube video that depicts the misuse ? Is this too considered copyright violation ? I have also edited the Women in SIF section and written facts and statements that I believe are just facts ( according to your explanation above ) . -- Arnab221 ( talk) 23:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
--
Arnab221 (
talk) 01:14, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Slp1 , I got the drift of WP now( this was my first time editing WP ). I will try to source the data that has been mentioned in the graphs from some newspaper reports and articles that discuss the deaths of husbands in India . I will also change the captions on the photos as you have said!! The line with Biased marital laws is now replaced with the following and is obvious from the photos that I have posted . "Normally hundreds of women activists are seen publicly protesting with Men in almost all of SIF's rallies against misuse of Indian marital laws."
--
Arnab221 (
talk) 01:14, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
-- Arnab221 ( talk) 02:53, 22 December 2009 (UTC) Renamed all photograph captions as recommended . Removed any instances of men/husband from the captions , replaced with Indians. -- Arnab221 ( talk) 02:53, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
--
Arnab221 (
talk) 01:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
I am cool with the new photo captions , looks ok to me . Now lets move to the next sections
1) Marital law misuse in popular culture .
2) Supreme court advice to Incident . This incident got a lot of attention in Indian and you can see the sources too.
-- Arnab221 ( talk) 01:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
-- Arnab221 ( talk) 02:20, 24 December 2009 (UTC) Cailil,
Your suggestions are but a clear example of how feminists try to gag the information that offer a different opinion from them . There has been a huge debate your feminist ideals and the way you vandalized the articles when they were first created and I do not want to go into them again. Slp1 seems to be a moderate and I am working with him to neutralize the article according to his instructions .I request you to let both of us deal with the articles . SIF was a very small organization when it was launched 3 years back and now it is global organization with over a 100,000 members in India itself. This was done without WP's help or advertising ( as you were there regulating the articles) and we do not need it even now as we have millions of blogs not only on SIF but on mens rights all over the internet. Today Men's rights brings in 72 Billion search hits in google and women's rights brings in 52 million and SIF is just a drop in that ocean. However coming back to the SIF , the articles that were written in 2007 to represent SIF did not do justice to its reach and current size now and hence this article attempts to do that in a neutral way ( where I am bring guided by SLp1). I was also looking into the WP page for feminism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism) and I see that while a ton of ink has been spilled on the what feminism and done and achieved over the ages it hardly refers to the immense destruction it has caused or project the other side of the view. I am sure writers would have wanted to write about that too , but were gagged by people like yourself. -- Arnab221 ( talk) 02:20, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
-- Arnab221 ( talk) 08:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC) Slp1 ,
Thanks for the explanation .Firstly, my assumption that you were male was just coincidental and not calculated. Actually I am not at all surprised that you are a woman.Most people believe that Feminism is controlled by some women who are really radical and physiologically disturbed .Surprisingly that is not at all the case.Militant Feminism is a creation of men and men have created it with the sole intention of using it as a weapon to control other men or make profit .The biggest controllers and supporters of feminism are all big Male politicians( The current US Vice President ) , Male industrialists and Male thinkers who use feminism just as they use taxation and other policies to control and keep the population submissive. Radical feminism is a creation of men and is being totally funded by men although men are never in the limelight. On the contrary most support that men's rights movements get today are not from men but from women( at least in India).In the press releases that I had( and you removed) you will see that 90% of those have been written by Indian women journalists. Women journalists and bloggers write the most about us while the Male Judges and Politicians just pay us lip service. The male judges and politicians may abuse and torture their wives at home but when the reach office they turn into feminists and pronounce verdicts and statements against men just to keep their guilt in check and to convince themselves that they support the cause for women.That is exactly why I have mentioned the role of women in SIF.
Just to give you a simple example . A newspaper baron ( 99% chances he is a man ) wants to improve sales . He sees that in his area there are 100 homes which are all joint families ( Like in India ) . That is parents children and grandparents all living under the same roof . They all share the same paper and and his sales figures are 100 papers per day. He brings on board a feminist who starts writing radical articles in papers advising women that being married is uncool and you could get money and benefits by being being divorced and women should not adjust and live in a joint family . This goes on for 5 years. It is a lot easier to influence women than men.After 5 years of propaganda the 100 families start to break as husband and wife divorce and the 100 families become 200 families ( Husband and wife spilt ).Now if each family buys a paper the sales are now 200 per area(100% rise). Now extrapolate the same to Real estate , apartments and houses , Automobiles , Televisions and consumer electronics and basically everything that is needed in day to day life is sold twice once to the husband and then to the wife.Feminism is a dream come true for industrialists( most of whom are men). Why do you think US is the largest consumer in the world ? Both the government and the common people are are bankrupt to the hilt in debt but they will not unite and share resources simply because their family system has broken beyond repair due to radical feminism with an intention to profit and control. India has so far been protected because Indian thought process and religious beliefs are ancient and preach a united family.The feminists who are now being increasingly been booted out of US are now flying in droves to India to "reform" our ancient civilization with "modern" thoughts and create a second Wave of Family destruction.Now you will get a picture of what militant feminism is really all about .
Feminism's origin has nothing to do with women in the same way Mens rights activism is nothing to do with men.This is a battle against right and wrong , between truth and lies. -- Arnab221 ( talk) 08:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Can you check the talkpage guidelines please? This talkpage (like the article) is not the place to describe or advocate for your personal theories of life, the universe and feminism. It is to discuss improvements to the article. -- Slp1 ( talk) 13:10, 24 December 2009 (UTC) -- Arnab221 ( talk) 17:08, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
You are absolutely right ,no more personal talk.I am looking for some newspaper articles to substantiate the the last 2 sections according to WP guidelines .If I am unable to find them then I will change/remove it . -- Arnab221 ( talk) 17:08, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Save Indian Family is a men's rights organisation and it is not exactly a domestic violence advocacy group. So, it should link to Men's_rights_movement_in_India in stead of Outline_of_domestic_violence. The other alternative is to remove this line redirection like altogether. Newageindian ( talk) 03:25, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Dear Sonicyouth86
As I am not so good to understand about the content, but feel the below 3-link is from reliable source and the same to be added in Save Indian Family page. Would request you , please add the same in appropriate place . Would appreciate your effort in advance.
Men's rights group to raise marital rape issue on I-Day 'Harassed' men set up meet Spare a thought for innocent husbands — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruproy1972 ( talk • contribs) 04:10, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Dear Sonicyouth86
The two news I found as per seems from reliable source about two new NGO set up by SIF umbrella organizations . Would request to add the same in appropriate way in Save Indian Family.
Forum for abused men – SIF- BHAI
Thanks in advance for your kind support and understanding.
Ruproy1972 ( talk — Preceding undated comment added 09:43, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Dear Sonicyouth86 and others Found a article which i feel to be added in SIF page. Would request to add the link same in appropriate place. Men’s rights activists want commission on lines of NCW Ruproy1972 ( talk) 09:37, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Dear Sonicyouth86 and others
Found today more article about SIF , would request to add the same in appropriate place in SIF page , if you feel the same as per Wiki policy as reliable source Times of India : Mens rights bodies under banner SIF call to solve Problems SIF News : Men suicide increasing Ruproy1972 ( talk) 04:20, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
I propose that Save Indian Family be merged into Save Indian Family Foundation. These two appear to be one and the same thing, the activities (e.g., opposition to criminalizing marital rape) and activists (Swarup Sarkar) appear to be the same. I don't see the need for two separate pages. SonicY (talk) 11:59, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Save Indian Family is a movement under that many NGO works, Like Save Family Foundation or save Indian family foundation, Haridaya, Vastav,Daman to name few are individual NGO. A Individual work for many NGO and the name Swarup sarkar also have many individaul , there is no restriction to work in multiple NGO. Any activity done or announced by Save Indian Family, many NGO followed.
So , the same should not be merged. If required any NGO can be merged to Save Indian Family not other way , as it will be injustice to others NGO also working for Save Indian family movement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruproy1972 ( talk • contribs) 11:42, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Sonicyouth86, I am not an expert on Wikipedia policies. But, a lot of users who directly work for the group Save Indian Family have edited its page with WP:PROMOTION violating WP:NPOV. There is also some Wikipedia:Vandalism in both pages, which you suggested for merging. Newageindian ( talk) 11:56, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
There are many officially registered men's rights organisations in India, often having similar sounding names. For example, one source in June 2015, refers to (Swarup Sarkar) as president of a registered organisation called "Save Family Foundation" and the wikipedia user Ritwik Bisaria is member of this organisation. Please refer sources SwarupSarkar, RitwikBisaria and Save Family Foundation. The wikipedia page for "Save Family Foundation" does not exist. So, I do not know if merger of both articles is appropriate. The other possibility is to suggest renaming of Save Indian Family to "Save Family Foundation." Thanks. Newageindian ( talk) 11:56, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes exactly , there are many NGO like Save family Foundation, Vastav , Daman , Haridaya who works for the movement Save Indian Family. Now all NGO does not have separate page. Then why only a single NGO Save Indian family foundation will have page and injustice to other NGO. It had been clearly mentioned , not a single NGO can claim Save Indian Family is their own . Either both page should continue, as news links are different, related to SIF to be link in this page and nes realted to SIFF to linked to SIFF page. Or Let SIF continue and all NGO can post thier news link including SIFF, SFF, Vastav, Daman, Hariday, it will give more knowledge to people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruproy1972 ( talk • contribs) 12:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Sorry merging will be injustice. Sif had own indentity and all citiation available. I do not vote for merger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.39.32.227 ( talk) 16:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with concept of merging Save Indian Family and Save Indian Family Foundation. Although on surface, both look similar, yet these two have different philosophy and goals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.254.104.15 ( talk) 17:04, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
As you had allready removed many protion in SIF there is no need to merge. SIF and SIFF different ajd different reliable source their. Request to withdraw your mergal proposal. There are enough reliable resorce will be coming out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.39.32.227 ( talk) 01:55, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Sonicyouth86 Corrections helps maintaining the right content on wikipages indeed and I believe necessary corrections are done on the Save Indian Family page by you. While tracing back on origin of the names confusion, I found the 1st ever reliable Source which mentions both Save Indian Family & Save Indian Family Foundation dating 20 September 2007 SIF. The source mentions Save Indian Family Foundation as 1 of the NGOs while the Article also mentions Save Indian Family separately. Then also found other reliable sources like SIF, SIF, SIF, SIF and many others which mention Save Indian Family as an umbrella organization while almost all other links mention Save Indian Family Foundation as one of the NGOs. So proposing SIFF into SIF looks a very sensible option. Though I also found another source [ Save Family Foundation] which shows activist (Rajesh Vakharia) as President of Save Family Foundation. Save Indian Family Foundation page also writes Rajesh Vakharia as a Leader. So merging a NGO into the Umbrella organization looks apt. Otherway round may invite concerns from other NGOs who identify to Save Indian Family but not to Save Indian Family Foundation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.59.111.164 ( talk) 04:14, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
SIF is an umbrella group of various NGOs across the globe, and SIFF is an individual NGO, so both are different. In case there has to be a single page it should SIF. Many references to this effect are already quoted above by earlier contributors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gokulpr ( talk • contribs) 04:39, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Dear User:Sonicyouth86, various sources posted on Save Indian Family page were from authentic sources. Would request you to reinstate them while I will ensure that content is lesser (lesser number of original words). On the question of merger input shared by User:newageindian looks coming under violation of WP:NPOV as the user being a contributor of Save Indian Family Foundation page and also admin of SIFF Website. Hence, the inputs from the user may not be from Neutral Point of View. In case there is a merger anticipated, a single NGO merging into an umbrella organisation (or as a sublink) may have lesser concerns from other NGOs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ritwik.bisaria ( talk • contribs) 04:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Dear SonicY As there is no concession , would request to withdraw your proposal to avoid any confusion to readers. Save Indian Family is a umbrella organization where many NGO can attached , where as SIFF is one of NGO born from Save Indian Family, even the same can bee seen from the history also, some one changed earlier Save Indian Family to SIFF for own interest. Also would request to add many reliable source links i had given you in your talk page. Hope you will close your proposal at the earliest. Ruproy1972 ( talk) 04:50, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Sonicyouth86, please note that there is a redirection of the wikipedia page Men's rights movement in India to Save Indian Family Foundation. If there are more than one men's rights organisations with credible sources, then they can be included in that page, if you remove the redirection of "men's rights movement in India" page to Save Indian Family Foundation. It appears that a few of the above users are suggesting that Save Indian Family is a kind of proxy for the Men's rights movement in India. Thanks. Newageindian ( talk) 17:15, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
User:Sonicyouth86 I totally disagree , the original page was SIF , not SIFF , the foundation word added after words, even the website domin also does not say saveindiandfamilyfoundation , it says saveindianfamily , unable to understand how wiki editors accept the word foundation added by admin of website owners as reliable source. it had been changed after words for self interest only as evident in the history. For example, Cricketer , why we make individual page for a particulate cricketer ? For actors, why we allow individual page of actors. Even redirection of men's rights movement to SIFF is also wrong. SIFF is a individual NGO , where as SIF is a umbrella movement where many NGO are part of it. Would request to remove the mergal proposal on urgent basis and do not allow some individual NGO to take undue advantages for their self interest. Ruproy1972 ( talk) 04:29, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Dear User:Sonicyouth86 from the discussion and various notable sources it concludes , SIF a umberala of various NGO and SIFF is one of them. The necessary corrections had been already done . So once again request to remove the merger proposal as it had already pasted more than 30 days. Ruproy1972 ( talk) 06:42, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
Dear User:Sonicyouth86, to end the Merger proposal, unfortunately, the page Save Indian Family has been redirected to page Save Indian Family Foundation. This is a major issue as a group named SIFF (Save Indian Family Foundation) is being viewed by Victims across the world as SIF (Save Indian Family). Which means that a victim in distress while searching for SIF, is reaching SIFF because of this wrong redirection. This has created lot of issues and legality around it too for following reasons. SIFF Website points the victims to a Limited Liability Company i.e. Confidare. Please see the Government of India, Ministry of Corporate Affairs output of SIFF website redirection to Confidare, which is a Limited Liability Company. See Confidare MCA Page. You may check the same on your own with the details in the given screenshot. Hence, by redirecting Save Indian Family Wikipedia page to Save Indian Family Foundation, you have effectively directed every Wiki user to a Limited Liability Company, thus misleading Internet users, searching for brotherhood help on Save Indian Family to a Profit seeking LLP named Confidare. Thus, any user can claim misleading information being provided on Wikipedia page and thus questioning the reliability of this great Online Encyclopedia. Coming to the query shared by you on Save Indian Family not being a movement, thus not allowed to have it's own page, is definitely against Wikipedia policies as any user can see many many Social movements finding space on Wikipedia. A Simple search gave this Wikipage of 'Movement'. If these many social movements can have their Wiki Page, why cant Save Indian Family? 101.57.192.216 ( talk) 11:00, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
Dear User:Rohini, thanks for your response. As I can see on this Merger proposal, the first proposal initiated by User:Sonicyouth86 was "I propose that Save Indian Family be merged into Save Indian Family Foundation. These two appear to be one and the same thing, the activities (e.g., opposition to criminalizing marital rape) and activists (Swarup Sarkar) appear to be the same. I don't see the need for two separate pages." So the proposal of merger 'because of same activities' was misdirected towards a policy violation by a User:Newageindian. I also see another valid input from User:Ritwik.bisaria siting, "On the question of merger input shared by User:newageindian looks coming under violation of WP:NPOV as the user being a contributor of Save Indian Family Foundation page and also admin of SIFF Website. Hence, the inputs from the user may not be from Neutral Point of View." Hence, a proposal initiated for 'similar activities', if was converted to Wiki Policy perspective, does show WP:NPOV by User:Newageindian. Though, if Save Indian Family page was violating content related wiki policy, merger to a wrong group is not the solution. The moderators could have raised the alert to users for corrections. As I see, users, in general, have adhered to any alerts raised by wiki moderators. Penalizing 'seemingly wrong' updates on 1 page, does not justify redirecting it to a wrong page. e.g. if there is an unintentional wrong edit to say a page on Mathematics, redirecting or merging it to a page of Science isnt correct. Similarly, both Save Indian Family Foundation & Save Indian Family are 2 different organizations, movements, websites, people and hence merger or redirection is wrongly directed. Please help in maintaining sanity for wiki users by avoiding this mis-direction. 115.245.0.149 ( talk) 07:30, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
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I have read the merger proposals which happened earlier and the respective discussions. But SIF is different and SIFF is different. SIF is run by Swarup Sarkar and others; while SIFF is run by Rukma Chary and Rajesh Vakharia. Confidare is a subsidiary of SIFF to voice out depressed men. While both the organisations' goals are same, more or less; they are different and independent entities altogether. If Wiki feels that SIF does not have notability, then at least do not redirect SIF to SIFF, instead let SIFF be SIFF. SIF may be included when there is notability. Thank you! - Veera.sj ( talk) 12:16, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:53, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Along with significant copyright issues as dealt with by Diannaa, there were also massive problems with sourcing and inaccurate editing, including BLP concerns and synthesis.. I will give a couple of examples here, but there are more, and so I have reverted entirely.
1. The sentence added said "SIFF was founded in 2005 by Rajesh Vakharia after his ex-wife filed a false complaint under Section 498Aof IPC . It took him 5 years to get acquitted. His legal journey during the case encouraged him to set up a civil rights movements to protest against the misuse of the law." The source given [18], from a dubious source (Deccan Chronicle- see past comments the RSN), states that Rajesh Vakharia was "a founding member", not that he was the founder. The assertions about the "false complaint", are cited to Vakharia in the article, but here has been reported in wikivoice, with no qualification.
2. The sentence added said "It was observed in the Deccan Herald in 2013 that around 64,000 men commit suicide every year due to alleged misuse of section 498A." The source is dubious (The Deccan Herald), but in any case the Deccan Herald did not observe anything: they cite "D S Rao, president of Hridaya-Nest of Family Harmony" as stating it.
3. The sentence added said "Similar numbers are reported in National Crime Records Bureau statistics on male suicides in India", citing National crime records which make no mention of Save Indian Family. An obvious example of original research to make a point.
As I said there are many many more, but I don't have the time or energy to explain them all. Slp1 ( talk) 15:58, 20 November 2022 (UTC)